New clinical trial intended to prove the Androgenetic Alopecia theory.

squeegee

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Dihydrotestosterone-inducible dickkopf 1 from balding dermal papilla cells causes apoptosis in follicular keratinocytes.

Kwack MH, Sung YK, Chung EJ, Im SU, Ahn JS, Kim MK, Kim JC.

Department of Immunology, School of Medicine, Kyungpook National University, Daegu, Korea.
Abstract

Recent studies suggest that androgen-driven alteration to the autocrine and paracrine factors produced by scalp dermal papilla (DP) cells may be a key to androgen-potentiated balding. Here, we screened dihydrotestosterone (DHT)-regulated genes in balding DP cells and found that dickkopf 1 (DKK-1) is one of the most upregulated genes. DKK-1 messenger RNA is upregulated in 3-6 hours after 50-100 nM DHT treatment and ELISA showed that DKK-1 is secreted from DP cells in response to DHT. A co-culture system using outer root sheath (ORS) keratinocytes and DP cells showed that DHT inhibits the growth of ORS cells, and neutralizing antibody against DKK-1 significantly reversed the growth inhibition of ORS cells. Analysis of co-cultured ORS cells showed a significant increment of sub-G1 apoptotic cells in response to DHT. Also, recombinant human DKK-1 inhibited the growth of ORS cells and triggered apoptotic cell death. In addition, DHT-induced epithelial cell death in cultured hair follicles was reversed by neutralizing DKK-1 antibody. Moreover, immunoblotting showed that the DKK-1 level is up in the bald scalp compared with the haired scalp of patients with androgenetic alopecia. Altogether, our data strongly suggest that DHT-inducible DKK-1 is involved in DHT-driven balding.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17657240
 

squeegee

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Circulating dickkopf-1 is correlated with bone erosion and inflammation in rheumatoid arthritis
Journal of Rheumatology, 03/03/2011

Wang S-Y et al. – DKK-1, as an important mediator, was correlated with bone erosion and inflammation in RA. The change of DKK-1 level may serve as a biomarker of disease activity and bone erosion.
Methods

Serum samples were collected from 100 patients with RA, 100 patients with other rheumatic diseases (e.g., osteoarthritis and ankylosing spondylitis), and 40 healthy controls. DKK-1 and osteoprotegerin (OPG) levels in serum were detected by ELISA.
Serum C-reactive protein (CRP) levels, erythrocyte sedimentation rates (ESR), rheumatoid factor (RF) titers, and anti-cyclic citrullinated peptide antibody were also measured in patients with RA.

Results

The serum level of DKK-1 was significantly higher in patients with RA than in healthy controls and those with other rheumatic diseases (p < 0.01); the serum DKK-1 level was correlated with levels of CRP (r = 0.488, p = 0.003) and ESR (r = 0.458, p = 2.4 x 10–4) and the Sharp score of radiologic change (r = 0.449, p = 0.001) in RA.
In contrast to the increasing level of OPG, DKK-1 was significantly decreased in RA patients treated with TNF-a inhibitor (p < 0.01). DKK-1 was significantly decreased in RA patients treated with IL-1Ra (p < 0.01).
 

S&amp;L

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Could it be the link between the few people that said that their hairloss got better after taking medication for arthritis ? I'm certain I've seen this .
 

squeegee

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A guy is claiming to have full frontal regrowth after being on a high dose of Sulfasalazine

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... TMP=Linear

The anti-inflammatory mechanism of sulfasalazine is related to adenosine release at inflamed sites

P Gadangi, M Longaker, D Naime, RI Levin, PA Recht, MC Montesinos, MT Buckley, G Carlin and BN Cronstein
Division of Rheumatology, Department of Medicine, New York University School of Medicine, NY 10016, USA.

The anti-inflammatory mechanism of sulfasalazine is not well understood. It has recently been shown that sulfasalazine inhibits 5- aminoimidazole-4-carboxamidoribonucleotide (AICAR) transformylase, an enzyme involved in de novo purine biosynthesis. We recently demonstrated that methotrexate promotes intracellular AICAR accumulation, thereby increasing adenosine release and diminishing inflammation, so we tested the hypothesis that sulfasalazine similarly promotes intracellular AICAR accumulation. We studied adenosine release and the state of inflammation in in vitro and in vivo models of the inflammatory process. The adhesion of stimulated neutrophils (FMLP) to endothelial cells preincubated with sulfasalazine was inhibited in a dose-dependent manner. Elimination of extracellular adenosine by addition of adenosine deaminase or inhibition of adenosine by the adenosine A2 receptor antagonist 3,7-dimethyl-1-propargylxanthine (DMPX) completely reversed the anti-inflammatory effect of sulfasalazine (at concentrations <1 microM in this in vitro model. To determine whether this phenomenon was relevant to inhibition of inflammation in vivo, we studied the effect of sulfasalazine (100 mg/kg/day by gastric gavage for 3 days) on leukocyte accumulation in the murine air pouch model of inflammation. Treatment with sulfasalazine markedly decreased the number of leukocytes that accumulated in the inflamed (carrageenan, 2 mg/ml) air pouch. Injection of either adenosine deaminase or DMPX, but not the A1 receptor antagonist 8-cyclopentyl-dipropylxanthine, significantly reversed the anti-inflammatory effects of sulfasalazine treatment. Sulfasalazine increased the exudate adenosine concentration from 127 +/- 64 nM to 869 +/- 47 nM. Moreover, sulfasalazine treatment promoted a marked increase in splenocyte AICAR concentration from 35 +/- 6 to 96 +/- 3 pmols/10(6) splenocytes, which is consistent with the in vitro observation that sulfasalazine inhibits AICAR transformylase. These results indicate that sulfasalazine, like methotrexate, enhances adenosine release at an inflamed site and that adenosine diminishes inflammation via occupancy of A2 receptors on inflammatory cells. Our studies provide evidence that sulfasalazine and methotrexate may be described as a newly recognized family of anti-inflammatory agents that share the property of using adenosine as an antagonist of inflammation.


Inosine suppressed inflammation better than adenosine and they appear to both work through the adenosine receptor. Inosine is a metabolite of adenosine.


Purines inhibit poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase activation and modulate oxidant-induced cell death.

Virág L, Szabó C.

Inotek Corporation, Beverly, Massachusetts 01915, USA.
Abstract

Purines such as adenosine, inosine, and hypoxanthine are known to have potent antiinflammatory effects. These effects generally are believed to be mediated by cell surface adenosine receptors. Here we provide evidence that purines protect against oxidant-induced cell injury by inhibiting the activation of the nuclear enzyme poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase (PARP). Upon binding to broken DNA, PARP cleaves NAD+ into nicotinamide and ADP-ribose and polymerizes the latter on nuclear acceptor proteins such as histones and PARP itself. Overactivation of PARP depletes cellular NAD+ and ATP stores and causes necrotic cell death. We have identified some purines (hypoxanthine, inosine, and adenosine) as potential endogenous PARP inhibitors. We have found that purines (hypoxanthine > inosine > adenosine) dose-dependently inhibited PARP activation in peroxynitrite-treated macrophages and also inhibited the activity of the purified PARP enzyme. Consistently with their PARP inhibitory effects, the purines also protected interferon gamma + endotoxin (IFN/LPS) -stimulated RAW macrophages from the inhibition of mitochondrial respiration and inhibited nitrite production from IFN/LPS-stimulated macrophages. We have selected hypoxanthine as the most potent cytoprotective agent and PARP inhibitor among the three purine compounds, and investigated the mechanism of its cytoprotective effect. We have found that hypoxanthine protects thymocytes from death induced by the cytotoxic oxidant peroxynitrite. In line with the PARP inhibitory effect of purines, hypoxanthine has prevented necrotic cell death while increasing caspase activity and DNA fragmentation. As previously shown with other PARP inhibitors, hypoxanthine acted proximal to mitochondrial alterations as hypoxanthine inhibited the peroxynitrite-induced mitochondrial depolarization and secondary superoxide production. Our data imply that purines may serve as endogenous PARP inhibitors. We propose that, by affecting PARP activation, purines may modulate the pattern of cell death during shock, inflammation, and reperfusion injury.
 

hairhoper

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Boba155 said:
hairhoper said:
None of your posts make any sense.

This is the reason male pattern baldness will not be cured for at least another fifty years. This post perfectly captures it.

Simply put, the general public is not smart enough to grasp current scientific research, and nor do they even want to try.

Quite sad really.

Hi freakout. Troll much?

Shall we just allow this thread to run and run for all the people who want to make rambling incoherent posts.

Ok then, great.
 

Boba155

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hairhoper said:
Boba155 said:
hairhoper said:
None of your posts make any sense.

This is the reason male pattern baldness will not be cured for at least another fifty years. This post perfectly captures it.

Simply put, the general public is not smart enough to grasp current scientific research, and nor do they even want to try.

Quite sad really.

Hi freakout. Troll much?

Shall we just allow this thread to run and run for all the people who want to make rambling incoherent posts.

Ok then, great.

Dumbass. I'm sorry your not intelligent enough to understand what we are talking about. Maybe try, oh I don't know, actually reading a medical journal for once?

"Rambling incoherent posts"... what a joke, if you can't understand something, simply don't meddle in it. You will only make yourself into a fool.
 

freakout

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hairhoper said:
You're an idiot and a hack,


Be patient with the guy, Boba155. Just ignore him. He's probably part of an intimidation team judging by the fact that he has nothing to contribute yet he meddles.

People on this forum are not stupid. They know who's makiing sense.

And yes, I think this thread should be kept alive so forumers can read what went on here starting on this page: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=64583&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=40
 

hairhoper

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That time you actually selectively quoted from my post to cut out the bit where I refer to you being caught out for selectively quoting studies. Nice.

You are calling us all idiots, fools etc but your posts literally are just FUD, trying to cast doubt on well established theory, by quoting irrelevant studies like those for FPB you were using until you were caught out for it.

Yes I am meddling with your agenda for this thread. I've tried before to get this thread back on topic, but you're way off and have turned this into a platform for your theories.

Simply trying to show 'there are other factors' which seems to be your main argument doesn't make androgens any less of a major factor.

If you dispute what I said about your theories being incoherent, could you please write again for me, in simple terms (I'm sorry I'm such a moron), with relevant male pattern baldness studies to back up:
- why you think androgens don't directly affect the hair follicle
- what you think the actual factors are instead
 

hairhoper

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Androgens + genetic factor + other factors -> male pattern baldness/FPB

Agreed?

In FPB, which is much rarer and where androgens are playing less of a role, the 'genetic + other factors' are likely far more significant than they are in male pattern baldness.

Agreed?

Either way, androgens are key, most evidently in male pattern baldness where we know that removing them from the equation stops hairloss.

Agreed?

I'm not saying the genetic + other factors aren't interesting, and the purpose of the study which started this thread is to shed more light on the genetic factor, which is what we really want to know.


(Sorry for the annoying 'agreed' meme, just trying to keep my points structured and clear, ya know, in the way you guys don't :))
 

squeegee

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Preventable effect of L-threonate, an ascorbate metabolite, on androgen-driven balding via repression of dihydrotestosterone-induced dickkopf-1 expression in human hair dermal papilla cells
.
Preventable effect of L-threonate, an ascorbate metabolite, on androgen-driven balding via repression of dihydrotestosterone-induced dickkopf-1 expression in human hair dermal papilla cells.
Kwack MH, Ahn JS, Kim MK, Kim JC, Sung YK.

Department of Immunology, School of Medicine, Kyungpook National University, Daegu 700-422, Korea. ysung@knu.ac.kr

In a previous study, we recently claimed that dihydrotestosterone (DHT)-inducible dickkopf-1 (DKK-1) expression is one of the key factors involved in androgen-potentiated balding. We also demonstrated that L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate (Asc 2-P) represses DHT-induced DKK-1 expression in cultured dermal papilla cells (DPCs). Here, we investigated whether or not L-threonate could attenuate DHT-induced DKK-1 expression. We observed via RT-PCR analysis and enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay that DHT-induced DKK-1 expression was attenuated in the presence of L-threonate. We also found that DHT-induced activation of DKK-1 promoter activity was significantly repressed by L-threonate. Moreover, a co-culture system featuring outer root sheath (ORS) keratinocytes and DPCs showed that DHT inhibited the growth of ORS cells, which was then significantly reversed by L-threonate. Collectively, these results indicate that L-threonate inhibited DKK-1 expression in DPCs and therefore is a good treatment for the prevention of androgen-driven balding.

Here is the full study about L-threonate and DKK-1

http://www.bmbreports.org/jbmb/pdf.php? ... UyOS5wZGY=


Dihydrotestosterone-inducible dickkopf 1 from balding dermal papilla cells causes apoptosis in follicular keratinocytes.

Kwack MH, Sung YK, Chung EJ, Im SU, Ahn JS, Kim MK, Kim JC.

Department of Immunology, School of Medicine, Kyungpook National University, Daegu, Korea.
Abstract

Recent studies suggest that androgen-driven alteration to the autocrine and paracrine factors produced by scalp dermal papilla (DP) cells may be a key to androgen-potentiated balding. Here, we screened dihydrotestosterone (DHT)-regulated genes in balding DP cells and found that dickkopf 1 (DKK-1) is one of the most upregulated genes. DKK-1 messenger RNA is upregulated in 3-6 hours after 50-100 nM DHT treatment and ELISA showed that DKK-1 is secreted from DP cells in response to DHT. A co-culture system using outer root sheath (ORS) keratinocytes and DP cells showed that DHT inhibits the growth of ORS cells, and neutralizing antibody against DKK-1 significantly reversed the growth inhibition of ORS cells. Analysis of co-cultured ORS cells showed a significant increment of sub-G1 apoptotic cells in response to DHT. Also, recombinant human DKK-1 inhibited the growth of ORS cells and triggered apoptotic cell death. In addition, DHT-induced epithelial cell death in cultured hair follicles was reversed by neutralizing DKK-1 antibody. Moreover, immunoblotting showed that the DKK-1 level is up in the bald scalp compared with the haired scalp of patients with androgenetic alopecia. Altogether, our data strongly suggest that DHT-inducible DKK-1 is involved in DHT-driven balding.


L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate represses the dihydrotestosterone-induced dickkopf-1 expression in human balding dermal papilla cells.

Kwack MH, Kim MK, Kim JC, Sung YK.
Abstract

Recent studies suggested that dihydrotestosterone (DHT)-driven alteration in the autocrine and paracrine factors may be a key to androgen-potentiated balding. Also, we recently claimed that DHT-inducible dickkopf-1 (DKK-1) is one of the key factors involved in the androgen-potentiated balding. Here, we investigated whether L-ascorbic acid 2-phosphate (Asc 2-P), a derivative of L-ascorbic acid, could attenuate DHT-induced DKK-1 expression in dermal papilla cells (DPCs) from balding scalp. We observed that DHT-induced DKK-1 mRNA expression was attenuated in the presence of Asc 2-P as examined by RT-PCR analysis. In addition, we found that DHT-induced activation of luciferase reporter activity was significantly repressed when Asc 2-P was added together with DHT. Moreover, Asc 2-P repressed DHT-induced DKK-1 protein expression as examined by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA). Although there will be many hurdles to apply our finding to actual remedies, these results suggest that it would be worthy to evaluate Asc 2-P or its derivatives for the treatment and prevention of androgen-driven balding.
© 2010 John Wiley & Sons A/S.

PMID: 20701628 [PubMed - in process]

Androgen-inducible TGF-beta1 from balding dermal papilla cells inhibits epithelial cell growth: a clue to understand paradoxical effects of androgen on human hair growth.

Inui S, Fukuzato Y, Nakajima T, Yoshikawa K, Itami S.

Department of Dermatology, Course of Molecular Medicine, Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka University, Suita, Osaka 565-0871, Japan.
Abstract

We attempted establishing an in vitro coculture system by using human dermal papilla cells (DPCs) from androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) and keratinocytes (KCs) to explore the role of androgens in hair growth regulation. Androgen showed no significant effect on the growth of KCs when they were cocultured with DPCs from Androgenetic Alopecia. Because the expressions of mRNA of androgen receptor (AR) decreased during subcultivation of DPCs in vitro, we transiently transfected the AR expression vector into the DPCs and cocultured them with KCs. In this modified coculture, androgen significantly suppressed the growth of KCs by approximately 50%, indicating that overexpression of AR can restore the responsiveness of the DPCs to androgen in vivo. We found that androgen stimulated the expression of TGF-beta1 mRNA in the cocultured DPCs. ELISA assays demonstrated that androgen treatment increased the secretion of both total and active TGF-beta1 in the conditioned medium. Moreover, the neutralizing anti-TGF-beta1 antibody reversed the androgen-elicited growth inhibition of KCs in a dose-dependent manner. These findings suggest that androgen-inducible TGF-beta1 derived from DPCs of Androgenetic Alopecia is involved in epithelial cell growth suppression in our coculture system, providing the clue to understand the paradoxical effects of androgens for human hair growth.


l-Ascorbic acid 2-phosphate promotes elongation of hair shafts via the secretion of insulin-like growth factor-1 from dermal papilla cells through phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase.

Kwack MH, Shin SH, Kim SR, Im SU, Han IS, Kim MK, Kim JC, Sung YK.

Department of Immunology, Kyungpook National University, Daegu, Korea.
Abstract

BACKGROUND: l-Ascorbic acid 2-phosphate (Asc 2-P), a derivative of l-ascorbic acid, promotes elongation of hair shafts in cultured human hair follicles and induces hair growth in mice.

OBJECTIVES: To investigate whether the promotion of hair growth by Asc 2-P is mediated by insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) and, if so, to investigate the mechanism of the Asc 2-P-induced IGF-1 expression.

METHODS: Dermal papilla (DP) cells were cultured and IGF-1 level was measured by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction and enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay after Asc 2-P treatment in the absence or presence of LY294002, a phosphatidylinositol 3-kinase (PI3K) inhibitor. Also, hair shaft elongation in cultured human scalp hair follicles and proliferation of cocultured keratinocytes were examined after Asc 2-P treatment in the absence or presence of neutralizing antibody against IGF-1. In addition, keratinocyte proliferation in cultured hair follicles after Asc 2-P treatment in the absence or presence of LY294002 was examined by Ki-67 immunostaining.

RESULTS: IGF-1 mRNA in DP cells was upregulated and IGF-1 protein in the conditioned medium of DP cells was significantly increased after treatment with Asc 2-P. Immunohistochemical staining showed that IGF-1 staining is increased in the DP of cultured human hair follicles by Asc 2-P. The neutralizing antibody against IGF-1 significantly suppressed the Asc 2-P-mediated elongation of hair shafts in hair follicle organ culture and significantly attenuated Asc 2-P-induced growth of cocultured keratinocytes. LY294002 significantly attenuated Asc 2-P-inducible IGF-1 expression and proliferation of follicular keratinocytes in cultured hair follicles.

CONCLUSIONS: These data show that Asc 2-P-inducible IGF-1 from DP cells promotes proliferation of follicular keratinocytes and stimulates hair follicle growth in vitro via PI3K.


Inhibitory autocrine factors produced by the mesenchyme-derived hair follicle dermal papilla may be a key to male pattern baldness.

Hamada K, Randall VA.

Department of Biomedical Sciences, University of Bradford, Bradford BD7 1DP, UK.
Abstract

BACKGROUND: Androgenetic alopecia, or male pattern baldness, is a common, progressive disorder where large, terminal scalp hairs are gradually replaced by smaller hairs in precise patterns until only tiny vellus hairs remain. This balding can cause a marked reduction in the quality of life. Although these changes are driven by androgens, most molecular mechanisms are unknown, limiting available treatments. The mesenchyme-derived dermal papilla at the base of the mainly epithelial hair follicle controls the type of hair produced and is probably the site through which androgens act on follicle cells by altering the regulatory paracrine factors produced by dermal papilla cells. During changes in hair size the relationship between the hair and dermal papilla size remains constant, with alterations in both dermal papilla volume and cell number. This suggests that alterations within the dermal papilla itself play a key role in altering hair size in response to androgens. Cultured dermal papilla cells offer a useful model system to investigate this as they promote new hair growth in vivo, retain characteristics in vitro which reflect their parent follicle's response to androgens in vivo and secrete mitogenic factors for dermal papilla cells and keratinocytes.

OBJECTIVES: To investigate whether cultured dermal papilla cells from balding follicles secrete altered amounts/types of mitogenic factors for dermal papilla cells than those from larger, normal follicles. We also aimed to determine whether rodent cells would recognize mitogenic signals from human cells in vitro and whether factors produced by balding dermal papilla cells could alter the start of a new mouse hair cycle in vivo.

METHODS: Dermal papilla cells were cultured from normal, balding and almost clinically normal areas of balding scalps and their ability to produce mitogenic factors compared using both human and rat whisker dermal papilla cells as in vitro targets and mouse hair growth in vivo.

RESULTS: Normal scalp cells produced soluble factors which stimulated the growth of both human scalp and rat whisker dermal papilla cells in vitro, demonstrating dose-responsive mitogenic capability across species. Although balding cells stimulated some growth, this was much reduced and they also secreted inhibitory factor(s). Balding cell media also delayed new hair growth when injected into mice.

CONCLUSIONS: Human balding dermal papilla cells secrete inhibitory factors which affect the growth of both human and rodent dermal papilla cells and factors which delay the onset of anagen in mice in vivo. These inhibitory factor(s) probably cause the formation of smaller dermal papillae and smaller hairs in male pattern baldness. Identification of such factor(s) could lead to novel therapeutic approaches.
 

squeegee

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:punk:
 

DarkDays

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Although I won't discount them completely I do agree that androgens are not the only culprit. If it were how would Minoxidil, Keto or minoxidil work as they aren't DHT inhibitors? If DHT were the singular bad guy then these treatments would be ineffectual whereas Avodart would be the cure all since it is the most powerful DHT inhibitor on the planet(that we know of and is available). Don't forget the eunuchs have already been mentioned and how they can still lose hair. Same goes for male to female transsexuals.

However, removing DHT completely from the equation would be a mistake as well as we have stuff that proves it is a part of it all. In essence it could be a synergistic effect between DHT and other hormones/environmental effects that are causing it. Mind you, the link to DHT was discovered by accident and that is why we have such a focus on it. There are ton of other hormones and chemical reactions in our body that we don't have much information about. We now know that DKK 1 is a part of the equation and that it is somehow affected by DHT. How and why we don't know yet.

What I really don't like about the current hairloss discussion is how female hairloss is discounted as some other type of hairloss as if women were some completely different species. Mind you, the baldness gene is in the autosomes and not the chromosomes so women are equally as likely to get the genes as men.

Seriously, no one addresses the female type hairloss here because they think it is some bloody hoodoo from planet X prime with a lifeform that isn't carbon based.

Now, if we take into account that women's hairloss is DHT induced only as with males(because you know, we are the same species after all) that means women are actually getting more masculine as DHT is associated with secondary sex characteristics. However, looking at most women, especially those with thinning hair, I am not seeing more examples of Adam's Apples, Jaw contouring or brow bossing(three of the most common secondary sex characteristics which can be easily developed by women if they go on a testosterone therapy).

The problem of course is that the biggest effect of DHT can be seen in puberty when men grow up. We see these secondary sex characteristics blossom and some men become literal Frankensteins, but they don't develop balding immediately or if at all(this is of course genetics as we are all different, but the core principle stands, DHT is what makes men men). So if DHT was the sole factor in our body young boys would be bald as well, but apparently there is some other factor that keeps them from developing baldness immediately.

However, we can't discount completely that androgens do play a significant role as transmen, even those who transition at an old age do often develop baldness which means that testosterone is a factor.

We also know that eliminating DHT completely from the body does not mean we get complete regrowth and most likely just a status quo of the current hairloss which means that there is a synergy going on. DHT maybe a factor in miniaturization of the follicle, but remove the DHT and still won't grow back completely it must tell us that there is something else that is suppressing the follicle. Now take into the equation what Cotsarelli told us that the follicles all exist still and that it is a lack of Progenitor cells. If the DHT was causing lack of progenitor cells and miniaturization of the follicle it should be reversible by complete eradication of androgens, but that doesn't cure it completely(for reference I have had blood work done and I have untraceable amount of testosterone in my system, yet that hasn't resulted in complete regrowth).

So let's say DHT is one part of the equation, I have a challenge to others and that is to find the other parts of the equations.
 

freakout

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DarkDays said:
.. have a challenge and that is to find the other parts of the equations.
How do you intend to find the rest of the contributing factors?
What disciplines will be involved in your procedures?
 

DarkDays

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freakout said:
DarkDays said:
.. have a challenge and that is to find the other parts of the equations.
How do you intend to find the rest of the contributing factors?
What disciplines will be involved in your procedures?

My apologies, I thought this was a public forum.
 

Bryan

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DarkDays said:
Although I won't discount them completely I do agree that androgens are not the only culprit. If it were how would Minoxidil, Keto or minoxidil work as they aren't DHT inhibitors?

Minoxidil stimulates the growth of hair by altering various biochemicals inside the follicle. However, the best available scientific evidence seems to indicate that it doesn't do that by interfering in any way with the fundamental balding process. Balding appears to continue at about the same rate, even when stimulated by minoxidil.

DarkDays said:
...Don't forget the eunuchs have already been mentioned and how they can still lose hair.

Sure, eunuchs can still lose hair in response to chemotherapy or severe malnutrition or probably other severe medical conditions, but I've never heard of a eunuch continuing to lose hair purely due to androgenetic alopecia. Hamilton was awfully convinced that that doesn't happen, and he spent a lot of time researching that subject in past decades!

DarkDays said:
However, removing DHT completely from the equation would be a mistake as well as we have stuff that proves it is a part of it all. In essence it could be a synergistic effect between DHT and other hormones/environmental effects that are causing it. Mind you, the link to DHT was discovered by accident and that is why we have such a focus on it.

Oh really?? How was the link to DHT "discovered by accident"? :) (I can already hear other forum members beginning to laugh as I ask this question!)

DarkDays said:
The problem of course is that the biggest effect of DHT can be seen in puberty when men grow up. We see these secondary sex characteristics blossom and some men become literal Frankensteins, but they don't develop balding immediately or if at all(this is of course genetics as we are all different, but the core principle stands, DHT is what makes men men). So if DHT was the sole factor in our body young boys would be bald as well, but apparently there is some other factor that keeps them from developing baldness immediately.

You're obviously a newbie here, because this specific issue has already been discussed over and over and over. Young boys (shortly after puberty) don't all immediately go bald for the simple reason that their hair follicles don't become sensitive to androgens until later in life. It's not just the overall level of androgens that causes balding, it's also the sensitivity to androgens in a given individual that determines whether (and how rapidly) he goes bald.
 

armandein

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DarkDays said:
freakout said:
DarkDays said:
.. have a challenge and that is to find the other parts of the equations.
How do you intend to find the rest of the contributing factors?
What disciplines will be involved in your procedures?

My apologies, I thought this was a public forum.

Dont worry DarkDays, you and yours comments are wellcome.

What I really don't like about the current hairloss discussion is how female hairloss is discounted as some other type of hairloss as if women were some completely different species.
:bravo:
 

DarkDays

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Oh really?? How was the link to DHT "discovered by accident"? (I can already hear other forum members beginning to laugh as I ask this question!)

Let me guess, they knew beforehand that DHT was causing this without any testing because science is based on absolute knowledge beforehand. You may laugh, but most discoveries were based on accidental discoveries because science isn't known beforehand regardless of what you may believe. The story that goes into most literature is about the doctor and the twins where one was castrated. If you can debunk that story completely(or any story similar) then fine, I stand corrected.

Hell, most of the things you are using now were discovered to work against male pattern baldness(I think the male is a misnomer as it affects both sexes) by accident.

You're obviously a newbie here, because this specific issue has already been discussed over and over and over. Young boys (shortly after puberty) don't all immediately go bald for the simple reason that their hair follicles don't become sensitive to androgens until later in life. It's not just the overall level of androgens that causes balding, it's also the sensitivity to androgens in a given individual that determines whether (and how rapidly) he goes bald.

So now you are referring to epigenetics and how gene expression changes after puberty. Now the question would be what causes this change in gene expression, whether it is just DHT "maturing" the gene(could be, especially if hairloss can be defined as a secondary sex characteristics) or if it is outside factors. Personally I believe there are other factors at work that prevent hairloss in teenagers(puberty and overall growth at the time and there are a lot of chemical signals in puberty that are much stronger than after it).

On a more serious note I find it interesting why people still don't address hairloss in men and women at the same time. They are not an alien species and I am seriously beginning to wonder whether people have actually gone outside their house and seen an actual woman let alone touch one. Men are not from mars and women are not from Venus or any other planet besides earth. We have way more things in common than you guys want to believe.

And please address all points if you want to make your case. I actually brought up several points(why the female part of the equation is ignored as if it is a separate species for some reason) and you are only addressing points that you want to shoot down expecting it to invalidate everything I say. You could just as well call me a terrorist hippie and be done with it.

You are also being way too defensive as I brought up one point that supports the androgen theory, that being Transmen, but I guess it is easier to ignore something you most likely consider a taboo than actually take that into the equation.

By the way, ad hominem attacks("obviously a newbie" and so on) are no way to further actual discovery of what creates this condition in the first place or to engage in actual discourse. We are not playing King(or queen in my case) of the hill, but trying to unravel what might be causing this to begin with.
 

freakout

Experienced Member
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3
The guy called me a screwball. His best friend called me an idiot. They do this to guys who show the gaping holes in their version of 'androgenetics' - which they say is a 'fact'.

This is a public forum. Welcome to Hair Loss Talk!! (even if I am the 'newbier').
 

hairhoper

Experienced Member
Reaction score
25
Enough with the melodrama, you've done a fair bit of name calling yourself, let's move on eh?

I asked you to explain yourself again clearly and you haven't.

State again simply, what these supposed gaping holes are.

All you've told us so far is that transplanting miniturised scalp hair from balding areas of human scalp to mice caused the hairs to regrow into thick terminal hairs.

If we accept the Cotsarelis progenitor cell theory, an explanation for this behaviour would be that in the mouse the follicle bulge starts to produce healthy progenitor cells again (for an as-yet unknown reason - we don't know what triggers the conversion of stem cells to progenitor cells). The progenitor cells restore the follicle, rendering it no longer androgen-sensitive. Hair becomes terminal.

You said you think that if transplanted back to a balding area of the human it would remain terminal. I agree this is probably true, because the androgen sensitivity of the follicle has been reduced by its 'repairs' whilst in the mouse.

Which begs the question, where is the massive leap of logic to say that any of this somehow disproves Androgenetic Alopecia theory as you claim it does?
 
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