Need to know how to repair penile damage...
- Thread starter JonA
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reason I ask about Gotu Kola is cos of this link ..
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... =gotu+kola
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... =gotu+kola
Indeed it is a rodent study. See my last point for the reason what they discuss in that study applies to humans, with regards to androgen deprivation (in this case, by Finasteride) and the resultant penile tissue fibrosis.
Yea, so what? You're going to attempt to disqualify what I say based on the amount of posts I have? Please, you are making a fool of yourself with such laughable, juvenile tactics. And by the way -- it's quality, not quantity, that counts.
Everyone starts somewhere. Need I remind you that you yourself also only had 5 posts at one point in time, too? Just because I have a small number of posts thus far (since I only recently joined this board) doesn't change the fact I base my opinions and construct arguments on scientific fact, and present such info via real-world, published studies. What do you use to backup your claims besides your own personal, subjective opinion?
And don't assume that rodent models DON'T apply to humans. Read and learn why:
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=346
Some of the top endos/MD's discussing penile tissue fibrosis due to androgen deprivation, including in animals models such as rats and rabbits, and ultimately correlation of such models to humans.
Oh and by the way, more food for thought for you:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... 06.00245.x
Since Finasteride reduces DHT, an androgen, there exists possible deleterious effects to erections, particularly nocturnals -- which maintain proper penile function via fresh oxygenated bloodflow to the tissues to prevent fibrosis. And since some guys like myself and JonA found our T levels crashed after coming off, this is an even bigger issue.
Getting back to the point though -- I'll take a medical professional's opinion and concrete, real-world research any day over some anonymous Internet forum poster's personal disinformation agenda.
Thanks anyway, though, and have a nice day.
Mew said:
But it was a HUGE DOSE many, many times larger than the 1mg or 5mg used in humans. :roll:
Yea, so what? You're going to attempt to disqualify what I say based on the amount of posts I have? Please, you are making a fool of yourself with such laughable, juvenile tactics. And by the way -- it's quality, not quantity, that counts.[/quote:cdddf]
Er, no, you were the one who called us noobs. I merely pointed out that you are more of a noob than most of the other contributors. Those in glass houses...
Comparing huge doses used on rodents with small doses used in humans doesn't constitute like-with-like, it constitutes tendentious argument. Please post some direct HUMAN evidence that finasteride can cause Peyronie's like symptoms, as Powersam requested.
The only people with disinformation agendas are those that spread scare stories and rumours with little or no grounding - people like these are on very shaky legal ground, BTW! This is a plea for real, robust human evidence.
Yea, except you forget that Finasteride has a flat dose response.
Once you get past 0.05mg, DHT is essentially surpressed the same amount wether you take 0.2mg, 1mg, or 5mg+.
Read: http://www.physics.upenn.edu/facultyinf ... index.html
Interesting, and you base that on what exactly? You do realize this is degenerating into a "my dad can beat up your dad" or "football is better than baseball" type argument, right? In other words, pointless.
Already did. Finasteride reduces DHT, an androgen required for proper penile tissue function/maintenance and in the article in my previous post, the docs already correlated such androgen deprivation seen in animal models as having the SAME EFFECT IN HUMANS. Where do you not see the connection?
I quote:
http://contemporaryurology.com/conturo/ ... ?id=111998
"The animal data are pretty clear that nitric oxide synthase [NOS] in the smooth muscle cells of the corpus cavernosum is influenced by androgen levels. "
"Although we don't understand why, we're finding that androgen deficiency Is associated with progressive fibrosis. In essence, because collagen is synthesized from the smooth muscle cell, it's related, at some level, with that balance of oxygen and fibrosis"
"And when we replace the androgen, we can see the histology go from fibrosis back to normal smooth muscle, which is totally amazing"
"In the rabbit model we're developing, once you castrate them, they somehow develop venal occlusion, and there is a lot more scarring. I'm sure the smooth muscle is not working well. If you add androgens, there is some activation of collagenase, which makes the smooth muscle better, makes the tissue look more normal, and helps eliminate the venous leak. We're showing, in an animal setting, that this is a reversible form of vasculogenic impotence, but Aversa is showing that in humans. "
They've already correlated it. You just haven't bothered to accept it.
Mew said:
It's nearly flat but as Bryan keeps on reminding us, not totally flat.
But the important point for me is not just the degree of DHT suppression but the fact that we know the impact of the drug can be very different at extremely high doses. For example, in one study pregnant rats were administered finasteride at 0.01, 0.1, 1.0, 10, or 100 mg/kg/day. Defects were observed the newborn male rats exposed to finasteride at and above 0.1 mg/kg/day but not at 0.01 mg/kg/day. There were also larger physical effects at the progressively higher doses in the study. Whether this was due to differences in the degree of DHT suppression, or other mechanisms related to the magnitude of the dose, I don't know. On balance, however, I find the suggestion that a group of men given a 1mg or 5mg dose would experience side effects of exactly the same intensity and in exactly the same proportion as those given, say, 500mg, somewhat incredulous. I believe that Merck never dared to test finasteride at extremely high doses for any extended length of time - presumably because of safety concerns.
Interesting, and you base that on what exactly? You do realize this is degenerating into a "my dad can beat up your dad" or "football is better than baseball" type argument, right? In other words, pointless.[/quote:3cc15]
I totally agree that the name-calling is pointless, it's not the way I like to conduct conversations. My hackles were merely raised by your initial post where you referred to other posters as "noobs" (which I interpret as "newbie", unless you had another meaning in mind) despite being a newbie yourself. Not that there is anything intrinsically wrong in being a newbie, in any case!
Already did. Finasteride reduces DHT, an androgen required for proper penile tissue function/maintenance and in the article in my previous post, the docs already correlated such androgen deprivation seen in animal models as having the SAME EFFECT IN HUMANS. Where do you not see the connection?
I quote:
http://contemporaryurology.com/conturo/ ... ?id=111998
"The animal data are pretty clear that nitric oxide synthase [NOS] in the smooth muscle cells of the corpus cavernosum is influenced by androgen levels. "
"Although we don't understand why, we're finding that androgen deficiency Is associated with progressive fibrosis. In essence, because collagen is synthesized from the smooth muscle cell, it's related, at some level, with that balance of oxygen and fibrosis"
"And when we replace the androgen, we can see the histology go from fibrosis back to normal smooth muscle, which is totally amazing"
"In the rabbit model we're developing, once you castrate them, they somehow develop venal occlusion, and there is a lot more scarring. I'm sure the smooth muscle is not working well. If you add androgens, there is some activation of collagenase, which makes the smooth muscle better, makes the tissue look more normal, and helps eliminate the venous leak. We're showing, in an animal setting, that this is a reversible form of vasculogenic impotence, but Aversa is showing that in humans. "
They've already correlated it. You just haven't bothered to accept it.[/quote:3cc15]
Androgens are involved in the regulation of penile tissue but it's still an intellectual and evidential leap to say that suppressing DHT by 60-70% with a concomitant 10-20% increase in testosterone will, as a matter of cause and effect, lead to Peyronie's-like symptoms. This phenomena is not mentioned in the prescribing information and has never been reported in any human finasteride studies that I'm aware of - which is surprising, if the effect is real, given that the drug has been on the market for 15 years. The fact is, a certain proportion of unfortunate men experience Peyronie's disease whether they take finasteride or not. Given that it is present in the general population we'd expect to see a certain proportion of sufferers amongst the ranks of finasteride users. Some will undoubtedly blame finasteride for their condition but they can't know the counterfactual (would they have got it anyway?) and it's a little presumptious to attribute cause-and-effect without any specific human trials.
docj077
Senior Member
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Are you having erections at night? If not, then you probably have something physicaly and physiological wrong with you. If you are having erections at night, then your problem is psychomotor and it's all in your head. It's quite likely due to your depression.
JustShaveIt
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This thread is classic! This man comes here for help and explains his situation and people just attack and bash him for it..... OMG our precious drugs could NOT have caused this!!!!! you must be a troll...you must of been paid to say this!!!! I mean I am using these same drugs and I refuse to believe it can cause hideous side effects!!!
Jon, I'm sorry to hear about your situation, all I can recommend is that you STOP taking these drugs and chemicals and hope that your penis size and function comes back again...trust me the ability to have sex is way more important in life than having hair. do not listen to these people that will willingly give up their sex life for a pipe dream of growing their hair back, they have some serious mental problems and need professional help....Good luck man.
Jon, I'm sorry to hear about your situation, all I can recommend is that you STOP taking these drugs and chemicals and hope that your penis size and function comes back again...trust me the ability to have sex is way more important in life than having hair. do not listen to these people that will willingly give up their sex life for a pipe dream of growing their hair back, they have some serious mental problems and need professional help....Good luck man.
stampede
Experienced Member
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Hmm.
Thing is, it's a nasty world out there, and women who look half way decent are very demanding.
I figure that it's pointless being horny and having a horseshoe 'cos women will just laugh at you. So best take the very small risk of losing that libido/sexual function and keep my hair/grow some back.
I won't "just shave it", because I'll look like an alien if I do (I've tried!).
Thing is, it's a nasty world out there, and women who look half way decent are very demanding.
I figure that it's pointless being horny and having a horseshoe 'cos women will just laugh at you. So best take the very small risk of losing that libido/sexual function and keep my hair/grow some back.
I won't "just shave it", because I'll look like an alien if I do (I've tried!).
JustShaveIt said:
JustShaveIt, I think the explanation for whatever Jon is suffering from is still a matter of conjecture. There are no human studies that have recorded these side effects. As you well know, many other people make accusations about Propecia that are unfounded and could be considered libel or defamation under British and European law.
ye, well ive got these sides and there not in my head. I dont really care if its not proved or watever..
I have been off finasteride for about 5 months now,,, still not horny as i used to be,, maybe getting slightly better, but nowhere near how i was. Penis has gone much more veiny too
hmm js waiting and hoping to get better.. Will update again soon.
Thanks
I have been off finasteride for about 5 months now,,, still not horny as i used to be,, maybe getting slightly better, but nowhere near how i was. Penis has gone much more veiny too
hmm js waiting and hoping to get better.. Will update again soon.Thanks
stampede said:
I used to shave my hair just because I liked the look (before I knew I was going bald) and I still got laid. If you cant get laid with a shaved head its either because your specific shape of head looks weird with a shaved head or its a confidence issue.
Sometimes I buzz it and sometimes I grow it really long. I like to have my hair for the variety.
jimmystanley
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i'm also experiencing erectile difficulties after coming off propecia. I was using it for about 2 years and have been off it for about 2 years. I can get erections but they aren't as strong and they usually don't last very long. I remember i spent quite a long time without getting erections so i'm wondering if there was some damage done. Does anyone know if getting full erections again will help reverse this problem?