Need input on next step

[rkim]

Hey guys. Looking for some direction. I've been on minoxidil 5% for a while and just added Folligen this week. I'm toying with the idea of one more thing to help out. From reading posts it seem like either minoxidil/Retin-A combo or spironolactone. Since I'm already using minoxidil the Retin-A combo will be a seemless transition, No extra appl. spironolactone would be an extra appl. however it doesn't include a shed. Also worried about spironolactone altering my DHT level. I'm a diffuse thinner all over and receding at the temples.

Any help or info will be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[CCS]

spironolactone won't affect your DHT levels. it is purely local. Any that gets into the blood is metablolized to a very week anti-androgen that has no effect on your androgen sites. that is why it is dumb to take spironolactone orally.

i think retina is useless and expensive. stay with the generic minoxidil.

spironolactone will be messy for the top of your head. it will be good, but messy, and impossible not to get on the hair unless you buzz your hair to a 0 or #1. it is better for your hairline for this reason. I read studies that show that it works much better in a cream, and not in alcohol/water, but the problem with this study is the cream had propylene glycol and the water/alcohol did not, making me wonder if the PPG did it. Still, we know the cream works, so use that on your hairline. if you want to make some with PPG, alcohol, and water, and use that on top of your head, that may be better than nothing at all. but you can't mix it up in your minoxidil because the two react.

 

[rkim]

Thanks collegechemistrystudent.

I don't think I'll be mixing up my own spironolactone with PPG so if anything I'll get the cream for the hairline. I guess I'll start with the 2%. Anything higher requires a prescription, no?

So, what to do with the top or my head. minoxidil isn't cutting it anymore. If not retin-a then what? People also distrust revivogen, no? What are some other products worth trying?

 

[CCS]

i think revivogen is just saw palmetto. i doubt that does much, but some people think it helps. i'm just saying if you want to apply saw palmetto to your head, you don't have to spend $$$ on the shampoo. you can buy the capsules at a health food storeand put them in your minoxidil or your normal shampoo. i got 120 160mg capsules for $18. that is a lot more than what is in revivogen. they stink, but maybe they will help.

the 2% is only $20 plus shipping, but you need to make it into a cream yourself because it is a liquid. it is very easy. just add oil and maybe some extra gentle non-lathering shampoo to emulsify it. look at my post in the experimental section on making spironolactone cream. it lists Dr Lee's cream ingredients and the ingredients of a cream known to work in experiments, and my homemade directions on who to make something similar without buying 20 different ingredients.

i think you should look into SODs folligen is the cheapest, and good for wide areas. also look at ACR spray or tricomin or http://www.drproctor.com.

 

[Bryan]

i think revivogen is just saw palmetto.

The main ingredients in Revivogen are certainly the various unsaturated fatty acids like LA (linoleic acid), ALA, GLA, oleic acid, and others. There's other stuff like saw palmetto, azelaic acid, vitamin B6, etc., but the Revivogen people have pretty much admitted that those are mainly just for show, and for marketing purposes. They consider the fatty acids to be the BIG reason to use their product, and I would certainly agree with that.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

OK. I did not know it had fatty acids. that does make it more valuable than just the saw palmetto. but I have all those fatty acids in the form of oils, and will be using them to make spironolactone cream.

I just looked at the prices. a bit high. maybe it is alright, at least to end dryness on your scalp. i doubt the shampoo has as much oil as my spironolactone cream will have, and mine is much cheaper. if you don't like making concoctions, and you have money to spend, maybe try it as a once a week compliment to nizoral and nano.

 

[rkim]

Nano sounds like a good addition as well. How often do you use it? I was using nizoral but I still got a lot of flaking, etc. T-sal works better for inflammation for me. I guess I could offset nano and T-sal EOD?

spironolactone seems like too much work. Not just because of the mixing, but it’s another 2x a day appl. At least Folligen (which I’ve just started) is less. BTW, I’m using 1ml of 30% folligen (spray) with 70% water with a dropper all over my head once every few days. I’ll increase the potency soon. Does this seem like a good approach?

I think I will try the spironolactone for the hairline. Couldn’t find the experiment page. Do you have a link?

Thanks!

 

[CCS]

click on the search link up at the top of the page and search for posts by bryan with keywords 1% AND spironolactone. That should bring it up.

here are the ingredients
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... hp?t=27936

i ordered NANO, but it has not yet arrived. Half of my regimen has not yet arrived. I'm just telling you the stuff I read that makes a lot of sense. I don't have regrowth to back any of this up.

Dr P says to use the NANO 3-6 days a week. I'm doing 3 since I'm poor.
As for the folligen, can you get 1mL to cover your whole top of head? I need 2-4mL. The stuff is so cheap I would not go sparing on it and risk missing a spot.

if Tsal helps you tolerate other topicals, then use it. i don't think nizoral is that strong an anti-androgen. it could be, but at 2-3 times a week i just don't think it would stay in the scalp long enough. i could be wrong, though. it runs me $4 per month at twice a week, so I guess it is worth doing, since people call it part of the big 3. I can get cheaper than that if i use less than a tea spoon. it lathers very well to get the whole head.

 

[Bryan]

OK. I did not know it had fatty acids. that does make it more valuable than just the saw palmetto. but I have all those fatty acids in the form of oils, and will be using them to make spironolactone cream.

We're not on the same page at all!

The rationale behind Revivogen is that there are several studies showing that certain fatty acids (generally the unsaturated ones) inhibit 5a-reductase. However, they have to be in their "free" form to do that. Natural oils don't have that effect, because the fatty acids are almost entirely in the form of mono-, di-, and triglycerides. The fatty acids in Revivogen are in their free form.

I know you're interested in the topical application of 5a-reductase inhibitors, but I feel you're probably just wasting your time by focusing so much on topical finasteride and dutasteride. It's obvious now that you've overlooked the possibility of topical fatty acids, which might be more likely to work effectively.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

ok, can i get the fatty acids cheaply? old baldy gave me a link to get oleic acid, which is either 4 or 10 dollars a gallon. can i get other fatty acids?

revivogen is expensive, and i think it is more diluted and less effective than the fatty put on the head after a shower.

do you think i could use the fatty acids to make a spironolactone cream?

i wonder if there is a chemical reaction I can use to separate the fatty acids from the glycerol, and not have harmful bi-products.

 

[Bryan]

ok, can i get the fatty acids cheaply? old baldy gave me a link to get oleic acid, which is either 4 or 10 dollars a gallon. can i get other fatty acids?

I can't imagine getting reasonably pure oleic acid for 4 to 10 dollars a gallon. I'd have to see some serious evidence for that! Old Baldy, are you out there?

You can buy most any fatty acid you want from a chemical company (assuming you have an account with one), but you'll be shocked at the typical prices of those things. For example, one price I saw for GLA (gamma-linolenic acid, the most potent 5a-reductase inhibitor of them all) was something on the order of $20-$30 a gram, if I recall correctly. Others like LA (linoleic acid, which isn't as potent as GLA) are much more reasonably priced.

revivogen is expensive, and i think it is more diluted and less effective than the fatty put on the head after a shower.

Revivogen is fairly expensive, but it's nowhere NEAR as expensive as what you'd have to pay if you were to buy fatty acids (at least certain ones like GLA) directly from a chemical company. OTOH, if you shop around carefully, you _might_ be able to find a compromise like linoleic acid which is a bit cheaper than Revivogen.

What the makers of Revivogen do is de-esterify natural oils (like flax or borage) en masse, without making any attempt to further purify the resulting free fatty acids. That saves a TON of money! The fatty acids don't have to be PURE, they just need to be in their "free" form. So if you were to buy each individual fatty acid found in Revivogen separately from chemical companies and then mix them back into a similar product, it would cost you a LOT more than what Revivogen costs.

BTW, Revivogen is about 40% fatty acid, IIRC. I have no idea what you mean by that part about putting something on your head after a shower.

do you think i could use the fatty acids to make a spironolactone cream?

Maybe, maybe not. The problem is that the more effective fatty acids are the ones that are the more unsaturated. But the highly unsaturated ones are a lot less stable in storage, because they're so prone to oxidation. Revivogen has added antioxidants like BHT and tocopherol. I suppose if you were REALLY careful about adding such antioxidants to your own cream (BHT, NDGA, or whatever), kept it refrigerated, and used it up in a timely fashion, it might be ok.

i wonder if there is a chemical reaction I can use to separate the fatty acids from the glycerol, and not have harmful bi-products.

My understanding is that there are certain enzymes which can stimulate the de-esterification of oils, but I don't know any specifics. Several years ago I communicated by email with an engineer at a chemical company in Norway which de-esterified natural oils, and she told me that they heat large amounts of the oils under pressure, which causes them to de-esterify. They skim-off the glycerol at the top, leaving the fatty acids in their free form below.

Got an old-fashioned "pressure-cooker" in your kitchen? _I_ do! :wink:

Bryan

 

[CCS]

great, and I've been telling people not to bother with revivogen.

pressure cookers are so big. i could fill one part way with water and put the oil inside a glass container inside the water and balance it somehow. I wonder how much pressure is needed.

at least I know what to sniff around the web for.

thanks.

 

[Bryan]

College, you might want to take a look at the studies having to do with fatty acids in the Research section on the Revivogen Web site. They list most of the important ones, including the famous in vivo hamster flank-organ test. And I even have a study or two on fatty acids and 5a-reductase inhibition which even the Revivogen people don't seem to know about!

That hamster study is fascinating. It showed powerful flank-organ reducing effects from the topical application of several different free fatty acids, and GLA was the most potent of them all. Furthermore, it even seemed to show some kind of androgen-receptor inhibiting effect, because GLA was even able to inhibit the DHT-stimulated growth of flank-organs, although not as significantly as testosterone-stimulated growth (I have yet another study showing the same thing, that certain fatty acids seem to have an effect against androgen receptors). And perhaps most significantly of all, the effect was confined ONLY to the flank-organ to which the fatty acids were applied. There was no effect on the other flank-organ, and there were no systemic effects.

Now you know why I've always been much more interested in topical fatty acids than topical finasteride or dutasteride! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Old Baldy]

Bryan: The Chemistry Store sells 1 gallon for cheap. It is CAS 112-80-1.

The Science Lab sells a liter for about $56.00 because it is of animal origin.

The Chemistry Store's oleic acid is of plant origin (i.e., extracted from olive oil I think).

The MSDS sheets for both animal and plant sources list the product at about 90-95 percent IIRC.

That's all I really know. (It's BY FAR the cheapest of the fatty acids from what I've seen.)

Bryan you might be thinking of the "ultra pure" stuff. That's WAY more expensive than regular oleic acid. I mean WAY MORE!!

 

[Bryan]

Ok, that's interesting. It might be somewhat cost-effective to use that ultra-cheap stuff, although I'm not quite sure about applying relatively large amounts of it at a time (since oleic acid is only rather minimally effective as a 5a-reductase inhibitor) to your scalp or skin. See the various studies about the replacement of linoleic acid with oleic acid in the skin as a possible factor in the etiology of acne.

Btw, here's the generally accepted order of effectiveness of the C:18 fatty acids as 5a-reductase inhibitors, from MOST effective to LEAST effective:

GLA greater than ALA (alpha-linolenic acid) greater than linoleic acid greater than oleic acid greater than stearic acid (which has no effectiveness at all, being saturated).

Bryan

 

[CCS]

i just want some flax and borage seed oils with the glycerol removed. i don't care if they are mixed fatty acids. That's good that revivogen has 40%, but I want more for less. if i get some less pure stuff, it has to be cheaper than this. But where to get it. i don't think enough can be absorbed in 5 minutes with a shampoo, especially with the surfactants.

i think even saw palmetto oil can be good with the glycerol removed. if i can't find it only, i'd want to make it myself. but for it to be worth it, i'd need to make at least 250mL at once, would have to preserve it. I have the 8 isomer natural vit E. i also have grapeseed extract. and a freezer. and could cap it with little air in it, and add water to keep it full and air free every time I get more, though the water could freeze and burst the bottle.

i could keep my spironolactone in the fridge. this stuff could dissolve RU.

do we need PPG or alcohol to get these fatty acids into the scalp?

 

[Felk]

Well in theory revivogen should be a good treatment, with all these studies showing fatty acids being effective at reducing DHT.

I just find it so hard to believe, as I've never ever seen one person claim success using the stuff apart from HairLossTalk.com who uses it with spironolactone. When i was first interested in revivogen at the beginning of this year, I dug around all the threads I could find, and pmed several old posters who had stated they had begun using it. A few got back to me, after a long while, and they had all dropped it, claiming it did nothing, and started using finasteride and minoxidil.

Also, the company and site, with their claims about "clinical trials" and those dodgy before and after pictures... gah it's so damn suspicious.

However "The only one of its kind topical lotion for hair loss prepared in accordance to the clinical study reported in the British Journal of Dermatology - up to 98% reduction in DHT" was used to describe Crinagen on Hairsite. I wonder if that's valid at all.

It would be a cheaper experiment than revivogen, at least :wink:

 

[CCS]

I'd rather make my own stuff, so i know what is in it. I'm sure the theory is right, but I doubt the sales people who through it in a bottle know how to make a vehicle or use the right ingredients. i just don't know the ingredients are accurate either. a bulk chemical company would not lie, and neither would skimming glycerol myself.

 

[Bryan]

i just want some flax and borage seed oils with the glycerol removed. i don't care if they are mixed fatty acids. That's good that revivogen has 40%, but I want more for less. if i get some less pure stuff, it has to be cheaper than this. But where to get it. i don't think enough can be absorbed in 5 minutes with a shampoo, especially with the surfactants.

No no no, I wouldn't bother with a shampoo, either. And that includes Revivogen shampoo.

i think even saw palmetto oil can be good with the glycerol removed.

Interestingly, I've seen claims in serious medical journal articles that saw palmetto has a considerably higher percentage of free fatty acids than most other natural oils. Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? :wink: Maybe THAT is what accounts for the various (alleged) antiandrogenic effects of saw palmetto.

if i can't find it only, i'd want to make it myself. but for it to be worth it, i'd need to make at least 250mL at once, would have to preserve it. I have the 8 isomer natural vit E. i also have grapeseed extract. and a freezer. and could cap it with little air in it, and add water to keep it full and air free every time I get more, though the water could freeze and burst the bottle.

There's a product called "Private Preserve Wine Preserver" that you can buy in large liquor stores. It's a spray-can containing the inert gases argon, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide. It's designed to be used with expensive wines to stop the deterioration caused by oxidation after you pop the cork the first time, but it can certainly be used for the storage of oxidation-sensitive unsaturated fatty acids, too. Just before capping the bottle, you WHOOSH some of those inert gases into the bottle (the can comes with one of those little spray-tubes that you stick in the nozzle), putting a protective blanket over the fatty acids. It'll greatly reduce any oxidation.

do we need PPG or alcohol to get these fatty acids into the scalp?

In the hamster flank-organ study, the fatty acids were dissolved in a vehicle of ethanol. The concentration was about 20%, if I recall correctly.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

I just find it so hard to believe, as I've never ever seen one person claim success using the stuff apart from HairLossTalk.com who uses it with spironolactone.

I have. And after seeing one such post, I replied to the guy in that thread that I was predicting that after a certain amount of time had gone by, nobody would remember his post at all!! :lol: I swear to god, I'm not joking about that at all.

Also, the company and site, with their claims about "clinical trials" and those dodgy before and after pictures... gah it's so damn suspicious.

What do you think is "dodgy" about the pics?

Bryan