minoxidil foam that includes ketoconazole, zinc, and retinol

[hairlifted]

I'm using this on my hairline and temples, along with a little on the back as it seems thinner there although it could be due to the hair part. Anyways does adding topical keto in non shampoo form make this anymore effective than regular minoxidil foam? Its that vida cora brand, says its '10x more effective' but I ignored that part cause thats definitely too good to be true. Anyways I noticed very tiny hairs on my hairline (not visible unless you get really close to the mirror,), where my old hairline temples used to be, and were still there on the left side but not on the right. Its been about 2 weeks and it seems like those tiny little hairs have gotten just a tad more noticeable, but this could be just confirmation bias on my part.

Anyone use the brand or similar ones or should I just go for a cheaper one? I dont mind paying some money if it doesn't irritate my scalp and it claims to have lower alcohol amounts in this one versus Rogaine. Also since its a foam - is foam any less effective on long hair versus liquid? This style Bradley Cooper has is similar to mine, except mines a bit longer http://tophairstyletips.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/bradley-cooper-hair-length-inches-3.jpg. I have the same forehead/receding corner style he does as well so it looks a lot like his.

edit: Basically I'm asking if all the bells and whistles really make minoxidil all that more effective? Keto doesn't seem to harm my hair at all and being a swimmer my scalp used to always be dry and itchy. Even this foam cures the itch. Wondering if anyone else has used it.

 

[Captain Hook]

I'd steer clear of products like these, it doesn't look like a pharmaceutical grade preparation. What I mean by this is there is no statement of how much ketoconazole the foam contains, so it's a similar argument like with Regenepure DR, you don't know how much ketoconazole you're applying, it may not contain much, if any at all, there's no way to tell unless you send it in to a lab for a GC/MS assay.

While anecdotal evidence is conflicting, most people and clinical studies tend to show no difference in benefit with foam vs. liquid, it's just liquid has a higher propensity of causing itching, irritation and dandruff due to the propylene glycol vehicle that some individuals are sensitive to.

Honestly if it has ketoconazole it would make it more effective but again the argument stands, you have no idea how much, if any, is in the foam and while all-trans retinoic acid, known as tretinoin, brand name Retin-A can help with minoxidil absorption, retinol doesn't, it's simply just vitamin A.

The other ingredients probably aren't doing much either as saw palmetto with beta-sitosterol aren't even proven to be effective in the treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia. This study only showed that patients showed 'improvement' after treatment with zero quantitative analysis or evidence backing that statement, with even the study author saying this study warranted larger trials. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12006122)

Zinc sulphate and Vitamin B6 may be shown to be 5AR inhibitors in vitro but there is zero in vivo evidence it does the same, we have no human trials and hence no evidence. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3207614)

So I'd say no, all those 'bells and whistles' aren't making minoxidil more effective. What's wrong with using generic 5% minoxidil and 1% Nizoral ketoconazole shampoo? That way you'd know how much ketoconazole you're using and hence would be better off

 

[hairlifted]

Thanks captian hook for a good post. Needed some perspective which is why I was asking. I already use Regenepure DR, swap it every other day with that adenosine shampoo. Keto makes my hair look nice so I guess it doesn't matter how much it has in there, but I may just go for a cheaper formulation, maybe one with retinol or azleic but nothing much.

What do you think about foam vs liquid for longer hair styles? I figure with the potential minoxidil shed it was a good time to start since any shed wouldn't be apparent. This product also came with a review our product and get 1 free so I definitely did not trust any of the reviews. The less alcohol was a plus I suppose since it irritates my scalp, but I have no sure way of knowing that's true or not. Again thanks for citing some sources with your responses, good stuff.

 

[Captain Hook]

No worries. It actually does matter how much ketoconazole is in your shampoo, because 2% ketoconazole used 2-4x weekly has been proven to regrow as much hair as 2% minoxidil used 2x daily. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9669136) If that's not incentive enough, Regenepure is like $25 and 2% Nizoral is $20, it's cheaper and more effective.

Avoid azelaic acid, it's rubbish:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3207614

The only relation between Androgenetic Alopecia and azelaic acid is this in vitro study which even the author states that a more appropriate in vivo study is needed to confirm these findings. Don't waste your time with unproven treatments.

I'd say go with the foam, you have to part your hair to apply the liquid to the scalp which can be tedious with long hair.

And again, no need for any retinol, it's literally just vitamin A. If you want to use a retinoid use tretinoin, it increases the absorption and hence the effectiveness of minoxidil:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17902730

 

[hairlifted]

Awesome, means I will just be saving money in the future instead of continuing to buy this stuff. Ive tried Nizoral but I never liked the way it made my hair feel. Do you think it would be good to say include Nizoral twice a week in addition to Regenepure on the other days (or the Adenosine shampoo)? Plus the vida cora brand smells like an old person type of scent lol, so I've only been applying it at night and then using Adenogen (another growth stimulant) by Sheisheido in the morning. I know minoxidil is recommended twice a day, gonna try this out though for about 2 months, see if anything improves at all and if not just go ahead and switch to twice a day. I recall seeing a few getting half way decent results via once daily minoxidil and my hairloss isn't drastic so I got some time to tweak.

Does this sound like a halfway decent plan or pretty stupid? Be blunt if you have to haha, I know the studies show 2x the effective way to use minoxidil but its not an absolutely urgent hair situation I'm in, especially since its longer.

 

[Captain Hook]

I'd skip the Regenepure all together, it really is a waste, if you really want to use a weaker ketoconazole shampoo on the off days just use 1% Nizoral. 2% Nizoral twice a week is strong enough and you can up it to 3 or 4x a week if needed. Fixing the hair feel issue is simple, you really need to use a moisturising conditioner after using Nizoral and you shouldn't have any problems, I use Tresemmé Naturals Nourishing Moisture Conditioner after using 2% Nizoral and how I use it is I apply it and then let it sit for 2-3 minutes to address any dryness that the Nizoral may have caused and my hair looks just the same as if I would use normal shampoo.

Adenosine shampoo on the off days should be fine and to be honest I've heard good things about Shiseido's Adenogen (the only negative being that it's expensive and the adenosine content isn't stated, but some of the results clearly show there must be adenosine in it, S5 Bedtime Cream also contains adenosine if you're curious about that as well) and adenosine in general, studies even back it, it's been shown to be only slightly less effective than 5% minoxidil (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24183218).

You can use minoxidil once a day and see how you fare and if you're unhappy with results simply bump it up to twice a day.

 

[labellavita1985]

Hey guys, not meaning to hijack this thread but is there shedding associated with using Adenosine? Comparable to a minoxidil "dread shed?"

 

[Captain Hook]

I actually asked this question in another thread and it got zero replies, no one seems to know. I want to say no because otherwise we'd see threads about people complaining about S5 Bedtime Cream or Shiseido Adenogen (none of the reviews of this product mention shedding). It might have something to do with the fact that adenosine is an endogenous compound and works in a different way than minoxidil. I'll certainly report back and confirm this after a month of use of S5 Bedtime Cream. (Going to order it when my current pot of S5 Day Cream runs out, should be in about a month or so from now)

 

[hairlifted]

No shedding I can tell from the Anogen, definitely some from the minoxidil though. And even though the shampoo version contains SLS, it seems to be a fairly moisturizing shampoo and leaves my hair looking pretty good after following with a conditioner. I had used the Adenosine spray on the top of my head for about 2 months and never noticed any sort of hair fall and no itching either. Seems to be good stuff if not a little pricey like you said & longer hair just makes it more pricier, gonna get it trimmed soon though. Didn't realize s5 cream had adenosine in it though, might have to look into it.

And Hook - the 2% nizoral is still OTC right? Should just be able to grab it online easily? I'm kinda hopeful about the minoxidil maybe restoring some thickness along the temples, like I said earlier you can see very very tiny hairs where my old hairline used to be, so maybe since the follicle isn't dead for sure they can be grown back out. Already had a big forehead before hair loss so I hope it'll help a little haha.

 

[Captain Hook]

Glad to see that you've confirmed adenosine does not in fact cause a shed. Yeah 1% adenosine is present in the S5 Bedtime Cream, conversely they S5 Day Cream contains 1% caffeine instead.

Don't worry about SLS, anyone telling you it's bad is just scaremongering, it's present in a lot of household cleaning products. Yes, some people can have sensitivity to it but that doesn't mean it will cause irritation in everyone. I've been using SLS shampoos my entire life with no ill effects.

2% Nizoral is OTC in most of the world except the US, that being said it's very easy to either get a prescription or just order it online, it's definitely worth it for the peace of mind. 2% was the formulation used in the clinical studies, not 1%.

 

[hairlifted]

Good point about the SLS, my only response would be that I swim on a daily basis, so the SLS + chlorine usually drys my scalp out big time. The adenosine shampoo is the only one so far that hasn't done that. Good to know about the nizoral too, probably will just find a place online cause I dont feel like going to the Doctor to get a script for that. I hadn't realized the bump in percentage made it that more effective but you learn something everyday I guess

 

[Captain Hook]

Yeah SLS can have a drying effect depending on the concentration, always follow up with a moisturising shampoo for good measure. What specific brand of adenosine shampoo do you use? I'm curious as it's not a common shampoo ingredient.

Good on you. There are a lot of people on this forum that will tell you that the 1% Nizoral is just as effective with zero evidence to back their statement, it may be fine if you're just looking for antiandrogenic benefits but ONLY 2% Nizoral was proven to regrow as much hair as 2% minoxidil in clinical studies.

People will tell you the concentration of ketoconazole doesn't matter but think of it this way, there are 2% and 5% formulations of minoxidil, and how many people do you see here using the 2% minoxidil? Case in point, double-standards shouldn't exist for medication.

 

[hairlifted]

Well it looks to not be the adenogen lineup but something called Adenovital, which I have the shampoo version and the hair loss spray, but I believe the ingredients are similar and adenosine is obviously the front runner of the pack. The bottle is in japanese and the seller gave me a list of ingredients but I can't seem to find them.

Looking at Shishedio's website the Adenovital has: *taken from site
-adenosine
-onosis extract - no specific subspecies listed but I would guess ononis spinosis, and a quick google scholar look shows potential antifungal activity so perhaps that's why it's in there.
-AG complex (hair spray only) - A complex which is composed of Ashiitaba extract, Lingzhi extract, Japanese pepper extract, and sorbit.

Not sure if Adenogen is just another country's name for Adenovital but the bottles are a little different. Still I can only assume adenosine is the main culprit behind any proposed hair growth.

That's a good point about the 2% vs 1% keto, I have seen the studies about 2% minoxidil being less effective in men so you're right about getting the right percentage of keto in your treatment.

 

[Captain Hook]

Ah thanks I just looked it up. Apparently there isn't adenosine in the shampoo but in the scalp essence spray. Adenovital should be the same as Adenogen, it's just the containers look different.

Yeah it's interesting eh, everyone thinks it's cool to substitute Regenepure DR or 1% Nizoral when the studies only show strong evidence for 2% Nizoral, you don't see anyone doing the same for 5% minoxidil.

 

[hairlifted]

Well I have to admit I didn't really think much about the 2% nizoral and I'm pretty big into empirical evidence, so I literally must've just ignored that one lol

Found an actual ingredients list of the Adenovital scalp essence from a vendor on ebay:


Ingredients: Adenosine *, carrot extract *, Sophora root extract *, β-glycyrrhetinic acid *, pantothenyl ethyl ether *, acetic acid DL-α-tocopherol *, A****aba extract, lychee extract, Ononisuekisu, mint extract (1), hop extract, Japanese pepper extract, decyl tetradecyl dimethylamine oxide solution, isostearyl alcohol, polyoxyethylene hydrogenated castor oil, ethanol, purified water, dipropylene glycol, sorbitol solution, 1,3 - butylene glycol, I-menthol, anhydrous ethanol, sodium lauryl sulfate , DL-malic acid, vinylpyrrolidone · N, N dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate copolymer diethyl sulfate solution

Apparently the shampoo does have adneosine, according to my sleuthing abilities at least.

Here's the product label:

Adenosine in japanese according to google translate is:
アデノシン


Hard to read in that label, but it looks like near the bottom it has it:

Feel proud of myself lol

 

[Captain Hook]

Nice work, I stand corrected! I may actually add Adenogen to my regimen if S5 Bedtime Cream ends up removing adenosine from their formula in the future. You should definitely see some decent regrowth with both adenosine and 5% minoxidil.

 

[hairlifted]

I think so too, especially if I throw in some 2% keto in the mix. Still though - minoxidil just thickens hairs that have gotten weaker and thin right, resetting their hair cycle? I mean I know finasteride/dutasteride is the antiandrogen needed to combat the main problem of hair loss, but I have seen some pictures on other forums where people's hairlines seemed to gain a little from just minoxidil alone. Probably just confirmation bias on myself as people who have exceptional results are more inclined to post them. I would probably have to get the finasteride online though cause my derm talked about me being too young and not having enough hairloss to justify it, and in my defense I told her that starting early is key, especially if 95% of the guys in your family are nw5 and above.

 

[Captain Hook]

For sure, those 3 treatments should help you gain some decent ground.

Indeed, minoxidil shortens the telogen phase, hence causing weaker hairs to shed and (hopefully) stronger hairs to grow during the following cycle. It's not surprising that you see conflicting results as minoxidil only provides regrowth in 40% of patients, the rest just see maintenance or no effect at all (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25112173)

It may be prudent to get on finasteride if your family history of Androgenetic Alopecia is that extensive, perhaps you can get a second opinion or see your dermatologist again and mention that you're trying to be proactive? It's always best to have a physician to know what you're taking, I can't advocate just ordering some finasteride online without at least letting your doctor know first.

How old are you? You could always add a topical antiandrogen like RU58841 or spironolactone cream during the interim period until you reach the age where your dermatologist is comfortable prescribing finasteride. That being said time is precious and the decision is a personal one and ultimately up to you.

 

[hairlifted]

I'm 25, which is probably why they didn't want to put me on anything like that, which I understand from their viewpoint. Plus my hair loss isn't extensive, maybe a nw2 or 2.5, high forehead already but slightly receded temples, and just started noticing the back being thinner than the rest, no bald spots or anything like that though. My hair is good enough to grow out long and doesn't look all wispy and thin. So thats why I'm going with the growth stimulators first, and see how much potential time I could gain from them.

I should probably post a picture at some point to get an idea of what people think. I think with my healthy diet and certain supplements that I've been taking for years on a daily basis help as well. Stress and anxiety disorders run rampant in my family, and I have been supplementing magnesium glycinate daily for the past 4 years, along with turmeric & extracts to lower sysmatic inflammation, quality vitamin d and various oils to help my dry skin and scalp from swimming. I know they might not make a huge difference, but I figure chronic use makes them actually do something, and maybe the lifestyle and diet slow things down. My younger brothers have awful diets and lifestyles (sleep deprivation and the like), and they have recently just shaved their heads b/c of their hair loss.

I assume youre not on any finasteride or dutasteride from your regimen icon right?

 

[Captain Hook]

Correct but I'm almost 21, I definitely would consider finasteride at your age and Norwood. It's a personal decision but just ask yourself this, are you okay if your hair loss gets any worse? I personally am, which is why I'm on this regimen for now and I'll reassess in a year and see how I fare.

Again you can always try topical antiandrogens but if they don't give you the results you'd like after a year finasteride or dutasteride really are your only options for stopping the progression of Androgenetic Alopecia.

While diet does have something to do with non-Androgenetic Alopecia related hair loss. As much as we'd like to think it can help Androgenetic Alopecia, it really doesn't. The only links between diet and Androgenetic Alopecia are the onset of of the condition. What I mean by this is metabolic syndrome, obesity and low HDL levels are correlated with Androgenetic Alopecia manifesting itself earlier in life, they can act as triggers but it would've manifested anyway regardless, see where I'm going with this?

This is due to the fact that the major dietary sources of HDL (linolenic and linoleic acid) are 5AR inhibitors (don't think this means that you can take them orally to stop your hair loss though, this hasn't been proven) and hence constant high HDL levels in your lipid profile would prevent you from getting Androgenetic Alopecia earlier than you have to, same goes for obesity as it can lower SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin, it binds to free testosterone leading to a reduced conversion of T to DHT) but if you're genetically predisposed to getting it at x age you'll get it regardless.

(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20426781 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1637346)