male pattern baldness treatment should be much easier shouldn't it?

[GeminiX]

Surely we also have to work on what we understand to be accepted principles though. I mean, when a company makes a new drug or treatment, they don't sit there and say "well, finasteride is the only one proven to work, let's just use that...", they look at the situation logically and analyze what approaches should bring success (and then of course trial drugs that seem to work).

If male pattern baldness is caused by androgens hitting follicular androgen receptors, then we should treat it as such. Any treatment that blocks or otherwise disables androgen receptors should, in theory and with good scientific grounding, halt male pattern baldness to the extent to which the treatment is effective at doing this.

If a treatment absorbed well and blocked every single AR in the scalp region (for arguments sake) and then stayed there for say 24 hours, we would expect that a once daily application would stop male pattern baldness completely dead, because no androgens could reach the receptors to kill them.

If we don't work on accepted premises like this, then what grounds do we have to actually make progress?

Since when have you been interested in scientific principles and following good practice and well proven procedures?

You change your regimen on a weekly basis and each time claim "This is it, I've cured hairloss!", you have failed to provide any proof you even have hairloss to begin with and you believe everything you read from various random web quacks as absolute fact; Can't you see how makes the idea that you believe in science absurd? Are you just making up the things you're saying to convince others or yourself?

Honestly Hoppi, I'm utterly baffled by you. Your grammar and spelling show you're clearly intelligent, but the things you say and appear to believe indicate you're either high, out of your mind, or just some dick of a troll having a great time at others expense.

Have you not read the posts from people here who are having a really hard time with hairloss? Are you really such a selfish bastard that you're prepared to possibly ruin people's lives while you keep pushing your lunatic agenda?

edit: We've just come around in a big circle right back to where we started. Months and months ago you agreed to stop pushing your agenda while you found some volunteers who actually have hairloss and you would work on your theories and then publish results. Obviously you were lying as you're still here.

You clearly have zero interest in actually performing any science at all and are just a forum troll who likes to cause trouble; busted!

 

[Hoppi]

what "agenda"?

I have so many different varied understandings of this topic and have taken on so many different perspectives (by talking with different people), how can I possibly have an "agenda"?

All I wanted to achieve with this thread is a more accessible, easy to use powerful topical, and whether we are getting closer to that, etc.

Additionally, what I have said in the past doesn't really have too much relevance on THIS topic, it just seems like you are trying to create friction based on things that I'm not even currently saying.

I dunno, I mean if no-one wants to discuss this it's alright it's just it's a shame because it represents a direction in which progress may be possible.

I'm not going to argue this any longer though, clearly this is not the right sub-forum for this, maybe I should pursue it in the Experimental Treatments or New Treatments sections at some point.

 

[GeminiX]

what "agenda"?

I have so many different varied understandings of this topic and have taken on so many different perspectives (by talking with different people), how can I possibly have an "agenda"?

All I wanted to achieve with this thread is a more accessible, easy to use powerful topical, and whether we are getting closer to that, etc.

Additionally, what I have said in the past doesn't really have too much relevance on THIS topic, it just seems like you are trying to create friction based on things that I'm not even currently saying.

I dunno, I mean if no-one wants to discuss this it's alright it's just it's a shame because it represents a direction in which progress may be possible.

I'm not going to argue this any longer though, clearly this is not the right sub-forum for this, maybe I should pursue it in the Experimental Treatments or New Treatments sections at some point.

1. Your agenda is to spread misinformation about Finasteride and other medications which have been proven to work for a huge number of people while promoting the use of untested, unproven treatments which you have either invented or discovered on the internet.

2. Using examples of the claims you have made in the recent past is entirely relevant when what you are stating now contradicts what you have said in the past; either you were wrong then or you are wrong now, you cannot have both.

3. If you believe the treatments you've discussed in this thread are as good as you claim, why not show us pictures of your hair now, then use the treatments and show us your progress photos over time.

There, three clear points. Simple enough?

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

For the most part hoppi's only real "agenda" is of curiosity. You said it yourself in that the "proven" treatments don't work for everyone and even those for whom it does work most often eventually succumb to more hair loss. This means those "treatments" are far from ideal and that curiosity is something direly needed by the hair loss community in general. Hoppi does quite a good job of even prefacing most of his theories with a statement that they are just random theories that he's been thinking about and that he's completely open for discussion and learning on such topics. In reality the only ones with agendas are those who consistently try and silence any differing or adventuresome opinions on this board... well them and probably me.

 

[Hoppi]

For the most part hoppi's only real "agenda" is of curiosity. You said it yourself in that the "proven" treatments don't work for everyone and even those for whom it does work most often eventually succumb to more hair loss. This means those "treatments" are far from ideal and that curiosity is something direly needed by the hair loss community in general. Hoppi does quite a good job of even prefacing most of his theories with a statement that they are just random theories that he's been thinking about and that he's completely open for discussion and learning on such topics. In reality the only ones with agendas are those who consistently try and silence any differing or adventuresome opinions on this board... well them and probably me.

well said man, thanks

I don't mind that I'm not always right, I just prefer to stay open-minded in life even if it means risking being wrong sometimes

Also very often it's important just to put previous squabbles and disagreements aside and just concentrate on the current topic at hand, using individual knowledge to further progress ^_^

If you're not interested in the subject matter in this thread, perhaps the best idea is simply not to post in it

Hoppi

 

[GeminiX]

For the most part hoppi's only real "agenda" is of curiosity. You said it yourself in that the "proven" treatments don't work for everyone and even those for whom it does work most often eventually succumb to more hair loss. This means those "treatments" are far from ideal and that curiosity is something direly needed by the hair loss community in general. Hoppi does quite a good job of even prefacing most of his theories with a statement that they are just random theories that he's been thinking about and that he's completely open for discussion and learning on such topics. In reality the only ones with agendas are those who consistently try and silence any differing or adventuresome opinions on this board... well them and probably me.

I don't think I've ever said that proven treatments eventually wear off, they certainly haven't in my case nor for any of the people I know in person; I have seen it mentioned a lot though and suspect it's quite likely.

I also agree that the current proven treatments are less than perfect, they are however *proven* to work, which is infinitely more than any of the "proof" I've seen from yourself or Hoppi.

Further, if you believe I'm trying to silence new ideas, you have utterly missed the point of my posts; I can only assume you've not actually read what I've been saying.

Clearly I need to spell this out as you're just not getting it.

Trying to find new ideas to cure male pattern baldness is good, trying to encourage people to try unproven quackery is bad.

Discussing new treatments is good, making up nonsense about proven treatments is bad.

Showing proof that your ideas work is good, claiming to have found several miracle cures while not offering a single shred of proof is bad.

Finally, doing all of the bad points above while you don't even have any hair-loss to begin with, well I don't even know what that is.

 

[GeminiX]

well said man, thanks

I don't mind that I'm not always right, I just prefer to stay open-minded in life even if it means risking being wrong sometimes

Also very often it's important just to put previous squabbles and disagreements aside and just concentrate on the current topic at hand, using individual knowledge to further progress ^_^

If you're not interested in the subject matter in this thread, perhaps the best idea is simply not to post in it

Hoppi

Are you just skimming my posts and making up random things to argue about? Of course it's not bad to be wrong, I'm wrong all the time, being wrong is part of learning.

My point is you claim to be right on contradicting issues, either you agree to perform your studies responsibly and follow scientific principles or you don't, it's as simple as that.

As for staying out of your threads, well no, I *am* interested in the subject matter and I am bothered by the way you conduct yourself on this forum.

 

[Hoppi]

Gemini, I genuinely think you're a nice person and stuff but, we may just have to agree to disagree on this one and go our separate ways

I don't want to go on and on arguing/clashing, and we're probably never going to agree...

 

[GeminiX]

GeminiX, please have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_denialism

You will see that some people die from AIDS but still believe it is caused by something else. A fantastic read which shreds some light on the behavior of Hoppy and Brain (which reminds me of Duesberg or, even worst, Thabo Mbeki).

Cheers, it's fairly clear it's some sort of denial/faith thing going on, similar to religious people or those guys who drive ice-cream vans in October. I'll have a look at your link tonight when I'm not working.

The signs are the same, cherry picking which arguments to respond to while constantly failing to provide any proof. In this case for example, it would be incredibly simple for them to just take some photos, yet like all shills and snake oil vendors of this type, they simply ignore the requests and expect everyone to rely on a simple "trust me".

I just hope no-one here has been suckered in by the lunacy and is losing precious time when they could be treating their hair-loss with proven means.

 

[Hoppi]

Problem is the way you two are acting borders on harassment. If you don't agree with the point of a thread, you are not obliged to post in it. I really don't care if you agree with me/us or not, but there really is no need to be so confrontational about it and determined to be proven right. It's counterproductive for everyone concerned, and I for one am really starting to get tired of it.

 

[BrightonBaldy]

im a hoppi fan i have to say, should be more like him on here willing to look at everything

 

[kthxbi]

I mean, when a company makes a new drug or treatment, they don't sit there and say "well, finasteride is the only one proven to work, let's just use that...", they look at the situation logically and analyze what approaches should bring success (and then of course trial drugs that seem to work).

yeah man that's completely true, i'm not denying that. it's just that you're not a new company looking to break new ground, you're on a forum where a lot of people who know nothing about hairloss and want to find information for the first time will come and your first post said:

the closest we have gotten so far is RU58841 and Eucapil,

which isn't so much looking to improve on finasteride as it is denying that finasteride seems to be the most helpful for the most people.

that's all i was trying to say.

 

[Hoppi]

I mean, when a company makes a new drug or treatment, they don't sit there and say "well, finasteride is the only one proven to work, let's just use that...", they look at the situation logically and analyze what approaches should bring success (and then of course trial drugs that seem to work).

yeah man that's completely true, i'm not denying that. it's just that you're not a new company looking to break new ground, you're on a forum where a lot of people who know nothing about hairloss and want to find information for the first time will come and your first post said:

the closest we have gotten so far is RU58841 and Eucapil,

which isn't so much looking to improve on finasteride as it is denying that finasteride seems to be the most helpful for the most people.

that's all i was trying to say.

Ah I see what you mean

Remember though that the reason I mentioned those two and not other popular, effective treatments like finasteride, minoxidil, folligen or nizoral, is because those 2 are topical AR... well, let's say "inhibitors" or "antagonists" - they penetrate the scalp, find their way to the ARs and somehow make it significantly more difficult for androgens to attach.

I find this concept interesting because not everyone can take finasteride without side effects or some kind of reaction, and a topical like this broadens the options available.

I mean, I think RU is fairly close, I just wish it was more commercially available and also I am bothered by stories of people saying it didn't work for them despite it's strength. El dutasteride says those people didn't experience improvement on finasteride anyway though.

But yeah erm, I guess things like asc-j9 also look interesting, so maybe this gap in the market will simply fill itself as time goes on and treatments naturally improve

I wonder how the asc-j9 testing is going! ^_^

 

[GeminiX]

But not everyone can use topicals without side effects either.

Each and every time I tried Rogaine or it's variants my hair would be greasy and look like I had used it to wash the dishes and I would have hay-fever like symptoms which would last for hours.

 

[Hoppi]

But not everyone can use topicals without side effects either.

Each and every time I tried Rogaine or it's variants my hair would be greasy and look like I had used it to wash the dishes and I would have hay-fever like symptoms which would last for hours.

Yeah I know, I mean of course it still enters the blood stream. I think on the whole though the main topical antiandrogens hit the body less than finasteride, and of course also we have technologies such as that in Eucapil, that makes it break up quickly in the blood. I think it would be great if they just remade Eucapil just like, at twice the strength lol

I wonder what could be on the horizon