Kintor's Pyrilutamide outcompetes RU-58841 (insane binding affinity)+ potential compound reveal?

trialAcc

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,531
I agree with @el_duterino and @whatevr about the highly possible side effects.

We've already seen drugs, such as Finasteride, that have passed FDA approval but clearly a lot of people get side effects. And it was only after a decade since its came to market, only then were a substantial amount of studies done that proved there were much more side effects than initially claimed.

So just because something is FDA approved, doesn't necessarily mean something is safe.

Also, Finasteride was far less potent than Pyrilutamide will be so there's an even higher probability of sexual or even mental side effects.

But time will tell.
None of this is really true. finasteride/Pry are completely different drugs with different methods of action and delivery methods, so to say that there is a higher probability of any sides is just useless speculation at this point.

In addition, many independent studies have shown finasteride side effects to be in a similar range to the original studies, which is still low and largley reversible when you stop the drug. What the studies can't really test for is longer term issues that might develop outside of the trial scope, which is why it does remain true that FDA approval doesn't equal long term safety for all drugs. Doesn't mean that the drugs that pass FDA are not generally "safe" from the perspective in which we view drug safety. These drugs just happen to be for "cosmetic" purposes rather then to stop or prevent serious health issues.
 

Micky_007

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
377
According to the scientific literature the incidence of getting sides from Finasteride is still low.

The MoA is also very different from finasteride

The sheer amount of people on this forum alone will beg to differ about the supposedly "low side effects of Finasteride" that are claimed. Everyday I see new people on this forum alone speak of Finasteride/anti-androgens side effects, also I see it all over every other reputable hair loss forum.

There's a lot of claims that Finasteride made I don't believe.
 

trialAcc

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,531
The sheer amount of people on this forum alone will beg to differ about the supposedly "low side effects of Finasteride" that are claimed. Everyday I see new people on this forum alone speak of Finasteride side effects, also I see it all over every other reputable hair loss forum.

There's a lot of claims that Finasteride made I don't believe.
Ever heard of confirmation bias? You just made a textbook example of it.

In general, people with side effects and problems are the ones who seek out forums to discuss them.
 

trialAcc

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,531
The sheer amount people on this forum alone will beg to differ about the supposedly "low side effects of Finasteride" that are claimed. Everyday I see new people on this forum alone speak of Finasteride side effects, also I see it all over every other reputable hair loss forum.


And there's also many independent studies that prove that there are enormously higher rates of side effects than Finasteride or their so called "Independent studies" claim.
No, those are not independent studies. Most of them are paid for by the post-finasteride group and focus again on people who have already had negative side's.
 

Micky_007

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
377
No, those are not independent studies. Most of them are paid for by the post-finasteride group and focus again on people who have already had negative side's.

And likewise, just the same could be said about the so called "independent studies" that are pro-Finasteride that they are paid for by Big Pharma secretly.

However, my statement regarding paid studies to falsely claim Finasteride is better than it is with less side effects makes a lot of sense because there's so many more studies for Finasteride, which makes sense because Big Pharma has so much more money, power, resources and marketing power to spread more false information.
 

Micky_007

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
377

"More than 1,100 Propecia-related lawsuits filed across the U.S. against Merck were consolidated before Judge Cogan in so-called multidistrict litigation (MDL). Merck agreed to settle most of them last year for $4.3 million, to be divided among the plaintiffs. Prior to the settlement, plaintiffs’ lawyers cited internal company communications to allege that in revisions to the drug’s original label, Merck understated the number of men who experienced sexual symptoms in clinical trials, and how long those symptoms lasted. Merck settled before responding to the allegation in court."


If you want to get into technicalities regarding the definition of a settlement, if Merk or Propecia actually won, they wouldn't have made a settlement and paid people out even $1. But here they are paying $4.3 MILLION dollars. You can say it's technically not a "win" but for most, I see it as a loss for Propecia.

Furthermore, Merck intentionally leaving out the other side effects on Finasteride was not a small thing as forgetting. They knew well what these side effects were bu left them out because they knew it would negatively affect sales. These are major major major problems because you can't just get away with that without paying people to keep quiet, paying scientists and FDA to keep quiet and also secretly funding "independent" studies because there's so many studies that contradict these "independent studies" that portray Finasteride in a less harmful light.

"
The sealed document also cites a 2016 sworn deposition in which a plaintiffs’ lawyer asked former Merck marketing vice president Paul Howes: “So you knew internally that if these sexual adverse events were prolonged or lengthened or never went away, that that would be something that would impact sales in a negative way. Right?”

“Yes,” Howes said.

Howes, who held that marketing job from 1998 until 2001, declined to comment for this article.


SALES DOWNER: In a 2016 deposition Reuters reviewed, former Merck marketing executive Paul Howes testified about the business risk posed by Propecia’s possible side effects."


No you're wrong again, there's actually a plethora of studies that show Finasteride is actually way worse, I'll cite you more stuff:

"The rate of sexual dysfunction was “significantly higher” in men who took finasteride compared to men who took the placebo, according to the study’s authors.

Impotence occurred in *15.8 percent* of finasteride users while 6.3 percent of placebo users reported the issue. The study’s authors published the results in the November 1996 issue of Canadian Medical Association Journal.

Also in 1996, a much larger observational cohort study published in British Journal of Urology used prescription-event monitoring to gather information on 14,772 patients. ED was the *most frequently reported side effect with finasteride*. It was also the most common reason for stopping the medication.

*Persistent Erectile Dysfunction* :

In March 2017, a Northwestern Medicine study found that some men who took finasteride suffered persistent erectile dysfunction in which they were not able to have normal erections for months or years after stopping the medication.

Out of 11,909 men who took finasteride or dutasteride, 1.4 percent developed persistent erectile dysfunction that continued for an average of about 1,350 days after stopping treatment, according to the study. "Young men who had more than 205 days of exposure to the drug had nearly five times higher risk of persistent erectile dysfunction than men with shorter exposure.*

Researchers published their findings in the open access journal PeerJ. "

" *Loss of Libido* :

Another side effect reported with Propecia use is a reduced interest in sex. In fact, *loss of libido was the most common sexual side effect reported in a 2011 study of finasteride users* published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine.

Researchers from the George Washington University School of Medicine interviewed 71 patients who experienced sexual side effects after using finasteride. The researchers found that *94 percent of men experienced a decline in libido.*

“Such significant and undesirable complications in relation to sexual function produce a well-documented negative impact on quality of life.”

Source: August 2003 review in International Journal of Impotence Research"

"*Problems Continue After Drug Use Stops* :

Following the early drug trials, both Merck and the FDA assured men that the sexual complications would resolve once they stopped taking the drug, but later evidence would prove the contrary.

"*The preapproval trials were not especially reliable, as the information was drawn from a relatively small patient group treated for only six months to one year, and follow-up procedures were unclear.*

*More recent investigations show the drug’s sexual side effects can persist even after a man stops taking the drug. In some cases, the complications are irreversible."*

" The man stopped taking the drug about a month later, and while some side effects disappeared, his sexual function never returned to normal. In a follow-up 11 years later, he still suffered from erectile dysfunction and loss of libido. The researchers published their study in the Journal of Sexual Medicine.

In 2011, George Washington University urologist Michael S. Irwig and his colleague Swapna Kolukula published their assessment of 71 finasteride patients who reported long-term sexual side effects that persisted after discontinuation of the drug.

The selected group of patients (young men between the ages of 21 and 46) took a survey that revealed a wide range of sexual side effects that arose after Propecia use, including problems with erectile function, arousal, sexual desire, orgasm and orgasm satisfaction.

The men had taken the drug for an average of 28 months. The sexual side effects continued for an average of 40 months after the men stopped taking the drug.

Upon following up with 54 of these patients one year later, Irwig discovered that *96 percent of the men were still suffering from the sexual dysfunctions* they initially reported. None of the men reported sexual, psychiatric or medical complaints before taking finasteride.

“The argument that the benefits of these drugs outweigh the risks is slowly eroding in the face of new emerging scientific evidence from preclinical and clinical studies.”

June 2014 study in Korean Journal of Urology

A 2014 review in Korean Journal of Urology found at least four previous studies that reported “persistent or irreversible” sexual side effects. The authors said the studies reported “negative emotional toll and reduced quality of life” for the men affected.

“The argument that the benefits of these drugs outweigh the risks is slowly eroding in the face of new emerging scientific evidence from preclinical and clinical studies,” the authors wrote.

Men who suffered long-term sexual dysfunction after taking Propecia have filed lawsuits against Merck that accuse the company of failing to warn users of the risk.

*Sexual Dysfunction and Suicidal Thoughts* :

Researchers have also found an increased risk of depressive symptoms and suicidal thoughts among men who suffered sexual side effects of Propecia. Irwig reported the connection in a 2012 study in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry.

Irwig looked at 61 former finasteride users who experienced sexual dysfunction for three months or longer after they quit the medication. He compared them to a control group of 29 men who had male pattern hair loss but who had never used the drug.

He found that *44 percent of the former Propecia patients experienced suicidal thoughts* compared to just 3 percent of men who never used the
drug.

He found that *44 percent of the former Propecia patients experienced suicidal thoughts* compared to just 3 percent of men who never used the medication.

*The rate of depressive symptoms was 75 percent in the men who had used finasteride* and 10 percent in the control group. Sixty-four percent of the former finasteride users suffered moderate or severe depressive symptoms. None of the men in the control group experienced the same issues."

" FDA Warns of Additional Problems and Risks
When evidence conflicted with Merck’s original assertion that the sexual side effects of Propecia would stop once treatment ends, the FDA required the manufacturer to revise the drug’s safety label accordingly.
 

Micky_007

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
377
" In 2011, the FDA called for a warning that erectile dysfunction may continue after the drug is no longer being used.

The following year, the agency published results from an investigation into the adverse effects of finasteride. Using data collected from 1998 to 2011, the agency identified persistent sexual dysfunction of at least three months in 14 percent of the 421 evaluated cases.

After the April 2012 investigation, the FDA required Merck to change Propecia’s label to include reports of libido, ejaculation and orgasm disorders that continued even after men stopped taking the drug. The label says 1 percent or more of men who used the drug experienced one or more of these three side effects.

The FDA also ordered Merck to add information about reports of male infertility and poor semen quality. The label description included information that the fertility and semen issues improved or returned to normal after men quit taking the drug."



"Drugwatch.com writers follow rigorous sourcing guidelines and cite only trustworthy sources of information, including peer-reviewed journals, court records, academic organizations, highly regarded nonprofit organizations, government reports and interviews with qualified experts. Review our editorial policy to learn more about our process for producing accurate, current and balanced content."
 

trialAcc

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,531
And likewise, just the same could be said about the so called "independent studies" that are pro-Finasteride that they are paid for by Big Pharma secretly.

However, my statement regarding paid studies to falsely claim Finasteride is better than it is with less side effects makes a lot of sense because there's so many more studies for Finasteride, which makes sense because Big Pharma has so much more money, power, resources and marketing power to spread more false information.
No one in big pharma cares about a conspiracy around finasteride, not even the original maker of the drug. It's off patent and barley causes a dent in the financial statements of Merck.
 

Micky_007

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
377
9 Cited Research Articles:

1. Thornton, J. (2011, November 18). The Truth about Propecia. Retrieved from https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19531052/hair-raising-effect/

2. Gann, C. (2012, July 12). For Some Men, Propecia's Sexual Side Effects May Be Long-lasting. Retrieved from https://abcnews.go.com/Health/baldn...g-possibly-permanent-sexual/story?id=16758123

3. Melcangi, R.C. & et al. (2013, July 24). Neuroactive Steroid Levels are Modified in Cerebrospinal Fluid and Plasma of Post-Finasteride Patients Showing Persistent Sexual Side Effects and Anxious/Depressive Symptomatology. Retrieved from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jsm.12269

4. Irwig, M.S. (2012, July 12). Persistent Sexual Side Effects of Finasteride: Could They Be Permanent? Retrieved from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2012.02846.x

5. Marchalik, D. (2017, February 3). Potential side effects of the drug Trump reportedly takes for hair loss. Retrieved from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...y-takes-for-hair-loss/?utm_term=.eb88bc5836a1

6. Paul, M. (2017, March 9). Hair loss and prostate drugs linked to persistent erectile dysfunction in men. Retrieved from https://news.northwestern.edu/stori...ed-to-persistent-erectile-dysfunction-in-men/

7. FDA.gov. (2016, March 14). Potential Signals of Serious Risks/New Safety Information Identified by the Adverse Event Reporting System (AERS) between October – December 2009. Retrieved from https://www.fda.gov/drugs/questions...w-safety-information-identified-adverse-event

8. FDA.gov. (2016, April 4). FDA Drug Safety Communication: 5-alpha reductase inhibitors (5-ARIs) may increase the risk of a more serious form of prostate cancer. Retrieved from https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safe...ibitors-5-aris-may-increase-risk-more-serious

9. U.S. National Library of Medicine. (2017, January 3). Erectile Dysfunction. Retrieved from https://medlineplus.gov/erectiledysfunction.html
 

Micky_007

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
377
No one in big pharma cares about a conspiracy around finasteride, not even the original maker of the drug. It's off patent and barley causes a dent in the financial statements of Merck.

It generates Merck $100 Million a year, of course they would care about it. It would also have a substantial dent in their financial statement.
 

Micky_007

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
377
There's only 1 link out of about 15 studies I provided that say there's 1.4% of Permanent ED sides. I specifically included that figure so people can see just how great the contrast is from several other studies who found that that figure should have been *AT LEAST 14 TIMES MORE*. Furthermore, sexual side effects are not the only concern to many people. Mental side effects and physical side effects are of concern of many. Im literally speaking to an 18 year old now who is telling me he would never touch Finasteride due to those reasons. I actually didn't even tell him anything bad about Finasteride, he's been linking me with negative reviews and stuff at his young age. It's also because he has several doctors in his family that warned him against using it even in the future. Which is something really interesting to see how doctors will without hesitation prescribe Finasteride to patients but when it comes to their own family they would never recommend it.

I mentioned several studies which said Finasteride had enormously more negative side effects rate in the links I provided. Just to highlight the figures:


"Persistent sexual dysfunction in 14%"

"Impotence occurred in *15.8 percent* of finasteride users"

"ED was the most Frequently reported side effect"

"Loss of Libido was the most common sexual side effect"

"94% experienced a decline in Libido"

"96% still suffering sexual side effects one year later"

"44% of Propecia users experienced sexual side effects"

"The rate of depressive symptoms was 75 percent in Men"

"64% suffered moderate to severe depressive symptoms"

These are quotes from the studies I posted above just to highlight the enormous contrast in side effects rate compared to that of the FDA which is clearly corrupt. These discrepancies in Figurea are far too enormous to deny major corruption has been going on by Merck, the FDA and any other study that promotes Finasteride or Propecia. It's evident that under 2% claim of Finasteride users that get side effects is the biggest lie and scam possibly the pharmaceutical industry.
 

John Difool

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,325
If pyrilutamide goes systemic as an anti-androgen, which is very possible, it would have similar side effects as Finasteride which is also an Anti-androgen.

I am glad Kintor is working hard and fast though, but the safety is of main concern.

At this current moment, based only on the information we have now, I feel Kintors AR degrader is going to be far more safer and effective treatment for everyone.
Finasteride is in a class of medications called 5-alpha reductase inhibitors.
 

frank33

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
139
If pyrilutamide goes systemic as an anti-androgen, which is very possible, it would have similar side effects as Finasteride which is also an Anti-androgen.

I am glad Kintor is working hard and fast though, but the safety is of main concern.

At this current moment, based only on the information we have now, I feel Kintors AR degrader is going to be far more safer and effective treatment for everyone.
I'm sorry, that's not correct.

Finasteride and Pyrilutamide are very different.

Finasteride is a 5-α-reductase inhibitor that works by decreasing production of DHT by 70%.

Pyrilutamide is an androgen receptor antagonist, that binds to HF's androgen receptors avoiding androgens doing so.
 

JaneyElizabeth

Banned
My Regimen
Reaction score
2,028
I'm sorry, that's not correct.

Finasteride and Pyrilutamide are very different.

Finasteride is a 5-α-reductase inhibitor that works by decreasing production of DHT by 70%.

Pyrilutamide is an androgen receptor antagonist, that binds to HF's androgen receptors avoiding androgens doing so.
They are all anti-androgens technically. General HRT usage though limits the term AA to Bica, spironolactone and CPA.

Yes, the difference is that "AA's" block receptor sites. Reductase inhibitors like Serms for estrogen, are targeted at a specific androgen, DHT. Medroxyprogesterone lowers T in general as does progesterone.
 

trialAcc

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,531
There's only 1 link out of about 15 studies I provided that say there's 1.4% of Permanent ED sides. I specifically included that figure so people can see just how great the contrast is from several other studies who found that that figure should have been *AT LEAST 14 TIMES MORE*. Furthermore, sexual side effects are not the only concern to many people. Mental side effects and physical side effects are of concern of many. Im literally speaking to an 18 year old now who is telling me he would never touch Finasteride due to those reasons. I actually didn't even tell him anything bad about Finasteride, he's been linking me with negative reviews and stuff at his young age. It's also because he has several doctors in his family that warned him against using it even in the future. Which is something really interesting to see how doctors will without hesitation prescribe Finasteride to patients but when it comes to their own family they would never recommend it.

I mentioned several studies which said Finasteride had enormously more negative side effects rate in the links I provided. Just to highlight the figures:


"Persistent sexual dysfunction in 14%"

"Impotence occurred in *15.8 percent* of finasteride users"

"ED was the most Frequently reported side effect"

"Loss of Libido was the most common sexual side effect"

"94% experienced a decline in Libido"

"96% still suffering sexual side effects one year later"

"44% of Propecia users experienced sexual side effects"

"The rate of depressive symptoms was 75 percent in Men"

"64% suffered moderate to severe depressive symptoms"

These are quotes from the studies I posted above just to highlight the enormous contrast in side effects rate compared to that of the FDA which is clearly corrupt. These discrepancies in Figurea are far too enormous to deny major corruption has been going on by Merck, the FDA and any other study that promotes Finasteride or Propecia. It's evident that under 2% claim of Finasteride users that get side effects is the biggest lie and scam possibly the pharmaceutical industry.
No one is claiming that the 2% figure is correct. It was clearly too narrow a scope of trial questioning, but the rest is still complete non-sense and are being pulled from law-suits that are designed to make the aggrieved look as damaged as possible. Half of them even contradict themselves.
 

John Difool

Senior Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
1,325
Ibuprofen was launched as a treatment for rheumatoid arthritis in the United Kingdom in 1969, and in the United States in 1974. Later, in 1983 and 1984, it became the first NSAID (other than aspirin) to be available over the counter (OTC) in these two countries.

Ibuprofen has side effects too. If it's bad for you, stop using it.

Honestly for you to come crashing a thread on an AA and start your propaganda on Finasteride one more time is wrong. You demonstrated your lack of knowledge by wrongly categorising the drug you are criticising so I would suggest you do some home work first then create your own thread preferably not in the science & study section of this forum and witness the number of visitors interested in your diatribes. Good luck.
 

Micky_007

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
377
No one is claiming that the 2% figure is correct. It was clearly too narrow a scope of trial questioning, but the rest is still complete non-sense and are being pulled from law-suits that are designed to make the aggrieved look as damaged as possible. Half of them even contradict themselves.

Atleast we agree on something that the under 2% or even under 5% side effects rate is absurd.

However, the rest are not all from law suits. They are separate, I intentionally put the years there and different Medical Professionals* who conducted those studies. They are definitely not nonsense. There's atleast 8 different studies there all claiming the side effects are much worse than Finasteride.

Yes there is one post regarding 1100 Law Suits filed against Merck from people in America alone which Merck had to pay out a whopping $4.3 million.
 
Top