You said "logically the process can be repeated" as in you can get your density up to maybe the average humans?
Is The Cure For This Disease Anywhere Close?
- Thread starter Jonnyyy
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In the patent @Noisette posted about Follica's protocol, the repetition of the process to enhance result is mentionned, but we don't know if we can recover a full density, this aspect is not written
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Source for @Tracksterderm, cause he doesn't seem to agree
"In an embodiment, the treatment regimen is repeated multiple times to build up hair density over time."
Only mention of this.
Methods for treating baldness and promoting hair growth
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2012078649A1?cl=en
But you can read the entire patent and see for yourself
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S Foote.
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It is important to be clear about the relevant accepted science in tissue growth physiology, and what this means in hair follicle enlargement within the dermal tissue, and the potential treatments you refer to.
The assumptions made about hair transplantation, are in my opinion the reason that hair loss research has failed to progress in many years. I will elaborate on this later.
The anagen enlargement of the follicles is subject to the same pressure based spatial growth controls as any other normal tissue growth in-vivo. This growth control works like this. Whatever is driving the tissue to grow internally, when a certain degree of external resistance (pressure) is reached, the tissue growth is switched off. So increased external pressure reduces tissue growth, and reduced external pressure allows increased tissue growth. Only cancerous growth fails to respond to this control.
If it is increased dermal pressure that is keeping male pattern baldness follicles in the miniaturised state, there are three options for potential treatments. Firstly we can reduce the pressure around the follicles to allow more enlargement. Secondly we could try to modify this pressure control, so we get more follicle growth before the pressure switch kick in. Thirdly we could modify the follicles to make them resistant to the pressure effect, so they could enlarge regardless of this control.
The best way to regrow large follicles under these conditions, is to reduce the external pressure to what it was pre-balding. This would be the best, safest, and most effective way.
The second option here explains the dramatic effects of wounding procedures like Follica's. It is known in general physiology, that the healing process causes a temporary relaxation of spatial growth controls, to allow the increased tissue growth required in healing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19006599
What concerns me here, is the long term encouragement of tougher fibrotic tissue growth in the area. This is a potential barrier to future anagen cycle growth, and could cause long term problems in maintaining the effect.
The third option is a big no no, and is the strategy I (and the mainstream tissue science) claim will not work. If the cell based treatments do succeed in producing large follicles in the Human male pattern baldness scalp conditions, these will be potentially cancerous according to the accepted science.
I have no doubt that scientists can induce new hair follicles and hair growth with the current technology. The point here is how large can these follicle grow? Do these new follicles being induced in mice grow large enough to produce the hair growth we want in our scalps? I don't think so. The maximum size these reach will be determined by the pressure conditions in the mouse tissue.
On the transplantation issue. There has always been two explanations for the results of transplantation, either differences within the follicles, or a factor induced by the procedure itself. This was acknowledged by the scientists who did the early studies. The whole body of evidence and studies we have these days, strongly supports the effects are external, and not because of any differences in hair follicles. I go into detail about this in my article I linked earlier.
The idea of producing DHT "resistant" follicles that will enlarge in the Human bald scalp, is just barking up the wrong tree according to the whole body of evidence we have.
S Foote.
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It works in mice because the external pressure conditions are different. Has this procedure in mice produced large follicles that would produce the scalp hair growth people want? I don't think so.
Well some scientists are wrong here, either mainstream physiology is wrong, or hair loss scientists are wrong. I know who my moneys on!
This is so typical of these forums
• Is shown photographic evidence that stem cell proliferation of human cells either implanted or induced are capable of producing full-thickness follicles in both human beings and animals
• Denies it.
It's like arguing with flat earthers.
You've just been shown photographic evidence that it can and frankly, the research that shows that the maximum size is determined by the number of cells in the dermal papilla; there is so much research out there demonstrating this I'm not even going to waste time linking it. As research carried out by Hoffman and whatever the other doctor's name is (the basis of Replicel's technology) shows, multiplication and migration of these cells restores this hair and they report the same findings in their in-human trials.
You're puzzled by why transplanted hair then is capable of survival? That right there should show you that your reasoning for why you think this won't work, while logically making sense, doesn't actually appear to be the case. You also talk about how wounding may give the necessary space, but fail to realize that wounding (creating and incision or puncture) is fundamental to both transplants and the proposed cellular implants.
Let's look at this from a different angle: Let's say you're theory that dermal pressure is going to prevent cells from allowing hair to grow to the necessary thickness. Again, transplants show you that they should survive to be at least as thick as the transplanted hair; that will definitely be enough for people when the quantity of hair is increased.
I'm not going to argue it further because as far as I can see, from what you say and have linked, there isn't anything to argue. Yes, there very likely is a limit on how thick the follicles can grow, but nobody cares because at that point you'd be at freakishly-thick hair anyway.
• Is shown photographic evidence that stem cell proliferation of human cells either implanted or induced are capable of producing full-thickness follicles in both human beings and animals
• Denies it.
It's like arguing with flat earthers.
You've just been shown photographic evidence that it can and frankly, the research that shows that the maximum size is determined by the number of cells in the dermal papilla; there is so much research out there demonstrating this I'm not even going to waste time linking it. As research carried out by Hoffman and whatever the other doctor's name is (the basis of Replicel's technology) shows, multiplication and migration of these cells restores this hair and they report the same findings in their in-human trials.
You're puzzled by why transplanted hair then is capable of survival? That right there should show you that your reasoning for why you think this won't work, while logically making sense, doesn't actually appear to be the case. You also talk about how wounding may give the necessary space, but fail to realize that wounding (creating and incision or puncture) is fundamental to both transplants and the proposed cellular implants.
Let's look at this from a different angle: Let's say you're theory that dermal pressure is going to prevent cells from allowing hair to grow to the necessary thickness. Again, transplants show you that they should survive to be at least as thick as the transplanted hair; that will definitely be enough for people when the quantity of hair is increased.
I'm not going to argue it further because as far as I can see, from what you say and have linked, there isn't anything to argue. Yes, there very likely is a limit on how thick the follicles can grow, but nobody cares because at that point you'd be at freakishly-thick hair anyway.
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S Foote.
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First off, I don't need a lecture from you about good science, I suggest you learn something about the scientific method. I have been involved in the mechanical sciences for over forty years, and have acted as an expert witness on occasion in my own field, and worked alongside scientists from other fields.
If you are going to claim that studies mean something, you have to back that up. We all know about the results of hair transplantation, you have to explain why this happens, and why some procedures that should work well just fail? Your claim about cell implantations being able to at least grow into follicles as large as in transplantation, is just uneducated nonsense! If this was so it would have been done years ago by Gho among others.
You give yourself away here in your claim about Follica's wounding procedure. All you have done is read the hype on their site about this working by activating stem cells etc, and you have just gone along with this. Nobody knows at this stage just how wounding is actually working to increase hair growth!
Threads like this have been posted here for over twenty years. Someone asks the legitimate question "why cant scientists figure this out?" When anyone then criticises the current science, we get fools like you insisting the existing science is on the right track. Then of course we all know this previously claimed good science goes nowhere.
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So how would one apply this pressure theory to modification of the follicle environment to promote hair growth or regenesis? Is there some mechanical method or apparatus that would be employed in vivo or in vitro at a tissue engineering level?
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Actually there are some evidences suggesting a mechanical role in hair loss out there
Involvement of Mechanical Stress in Androgenetic Alopecia
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4639964/
The model was solved as a two-dimensional static stress problem by selecting von Mises stress because it is a proportional scalar to the elastic strain energy generated by external forces at each point of the galea
The Androgenetic Alopecia pathological process ends by the complete destruction of some affected follicles,[4] but most of them remain as vellus-like hair, so a large recovery is possible in theory. However, these therapies would face one of the biggest challenges of medicine today: Reversing a fibrotic process.
It doesn't match the diffuse pattern nor the DUPA tho.
Involvement of Mechanical Stress in Androgenetic Alopecia
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4639964/
The model was solved as a two-dimensional static stress problem by selecting von Mises stress because it is a proportional scalar to the elastic strain energy generated by external forces at each point of the galea
The Androgenetic Alopecia pathological process ends by the complete destruction of some affected follicles,[4] but most of them remain as vellus-like hair, so a large recovery is possible in theory. However, these therapies would face one of the biggest challenges of medicine today: Reversing a fibrotic process.
It doesn't match the diffuse pattern nor the DUPA tho.
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* And older miniaturized being regenerate aswell (according to Follica's patent)
Still near half of those "brand new" follicles and miniaturized being regenerated stay at a vellus state (according to Follica's patent)
I wonder why tho, i'm not saying this theory of scalp pressure is correct, but why a large amount of those new follicles stay vellus ? Lack of stem cells proliferation most likely
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Why most people now never seen result with dermarolling, yet many studies claims, dermarolling creates new follicles, are we missing something?
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The concept of wound induced follicle neogenesis has been known since the freaking 50s. And Follica has been around since 2006 I mean how long can it possibly take and how complicated can it possibly be to develop a product or procedure around poking someone in the head enough times to trick your body into growing new hair? If they haven't even been able to create needles that can regrow some bum fluff in 2017, I am really pessimistic about the hair regrowth company's chances of perfecting hair cloning.
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Actually the more i search about this scalp tension theory, the more evidences are out here, of course androgens inflammation reaction is the main cause of this pressure, but some weird treatments whithout any anti-androgens effects nor growth factors are actually working.
1*A new apparatus for hair regrowth in male-pattern baldness.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2365903
2*And this one is quite interesting
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Fulltext/2010/11000/Treatment_of_Male_Pattern_Baldness_with_Botulinum.79.aspx?WT.mc_id=HPxADx20100319xMP<br />
A treatment with Botox injections.
Conceptually, Botox “loosens” the scalp, reducing pressure on the perforating vasculature, thereby increasing blood flow and oxygen concentration. The enzymatic conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is oxygen dependent. In low-oxygen environments, the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is favored; whereas in high-oxygen environments, more testosterone is converted to estradiol.4 Blood flow may therefore be a primary determinant in follicular health. Strategically placed Botox injections appear able to indirectly modify this variable, resulting in reduced hair loss and new hair growth in some men with androgenetic alopecia.
No finasteride, minoxidil or dutasteride here
You just can't deny this result, even with the poor pic quality
1*A new apparatus for hair regrowth in male-pattern baldness.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2365903
2*And this one is quite interesting
http://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Fulltext/2010/11000/Treatment_of_Male_Pattern_Baldness_with_Botulinum.79.aspx?WT.mc_id=HPxADx20100319xMP<br />
A treatment with Botox injections.
Conceptually, Botox “loosens” the scalp, reducing pressure on the perforating vasculature, thereby increasing blood flow and oxygen concentration. The enzymatic conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is oxygen dependent. In low-oxygen environments, the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is favored; whereas in high-oxygen environments, more testosterone is converted to estradiol.4 Blood flow may therefore be a primary determinant in follicular health. Strategically placed Botox injections appear able to indirectly modify this variable, resulting in reduced hair loss and new hair growth in some men with androgenetic alopecia.
No finasteride, minoxidil or dutasteride here
You just can't deny this result, even with the poor pic quality
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Damn! Why are we not hearing more about this!
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The study in 2010, but the pictures looks like from the 60s
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So basically, Instantely Ageless haha?