Is 5AR type 2 produced inside the hair follicle?
- Thread starter blaze
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Yes, that's correct. Here's an excellent study that demonstrated that effectively:
Arch Dermatol Res. 1999 Feb-Mar;291(2-3):100-3.
"Finasteride is the main inhibitor of 5alpha-reductase activity in microdissected dermal papillae of human hair follicles." Hoffmann R, Happle R.
Arch Dermatol Res. 1999 Feb-Mar;291(2-3):100-3.
"Finasteride is the main inhibitor of 5alpha-reductase activity in microdissected dermal papillae of human hair follicles." Hoffmann R, Happle R.
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blaze said:
98.5% if taking 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day
Jacobo
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My grasp of the male pattern baldness basics is still weak, sorry if the answer to this is obvious but...
5ar2 converts T into DHT, that will hapen inside the hair follicle. Then, if we inhibit 5ar2, we will have more T inside the follicle. T on its own will make our hair fall, as well. Also, Dutas increases T on overall. Couldn't that be the case of people losing hair when in Dutas, they are more sensitive to T. Wouldn't be then spironolactone (or GTE, or Turmeric, etc) useful to most people taking oral 5ar inhibitors? Can Nizoral do the trick against T?
5ar2 converts T into DHT, that will hapen inside the hair follicle. Then, if we inhibit 5ar2, we will have more T inside the follicle. T on its own will make our hair fall, as well. Also, Dutas increases T on overall. Couldn't that be the case of people losing hair when in Dutas, they are more sensitive to T. Wouldn't be then spironolactone (or GTE, or Turmeric, etc) useful to most people taking oral 5ar inhibitors? Can Nizoral do the trick against T?
blaze
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Thanks guys.
I have been taking 0.5mg of dutasteride Mon/Wed/Fri for about 13 months. Just the last two weeks my hair starting very noticably shedding again. When I wash my hair there are many hairs in my hand when there never used to that many. More hair on my pillow too.
This is not a good sign. This is how I first realised I had Androgenetic Alopecia, when I started shedding alot of hair in the shower etc.
I just bumped up to 0.5mg of dutasteride per day for the last week.
How much type 2 5AR was I inhibiting inside the hair follicle when I was on dutasteride M/W/F?
Will upping the dosage to everyday make a difference? It seems as though it may, 4 more capsules of dutasteride per week will hopefully make a difference.
Also Bryan, do you think what jacob says is true? Can testosterone cause hairloss? If one is inhibiting type 2 5ar at 98.5% inside the hair follicle, you would think that his hairloss would definitely STOP. But from reports on these forums this is not always the case. What else could be causing the continued loss in these ppl?
I have been taking 0.5mg of dutasteride Mon/Wed/Fri for about 13 months. Just the last two weeks my hair starting very noticably shedding again. When I wash my hair there are many hairs in my hand when there never used to that many. More hair on my pillow too.
This is not a good sign. This is how I first realised I had Androgenetic Alopecia, when I started shedding alot of hair in the shower etc.
I just bumped up to 0.5mg of dutasteride per day for the last week.
How much type 2 5AR was I inhibiting inside the hair follicle when I was on dutasteride M/W/F?
Will upping the dosage to everyday make a difference? It seems as though it may, 4 more capsules of dutasteride per week will hopefully make a difference.
Also Bryan, do you think what jacob says is true? Can testosterone cause hairloss? If one is inhibiting type 2 5ar at 98.5% inside the hair follicle, you would think that his hairloss would definitely STOP. But from reports on these forums this is not always the case. What else could be causing the continued loss in these ppl?
Jacobo said:
i reckon so yeah.. no one really knows for sure or we'd be closer to a cure
but thatd be my diagnosis. dont forget how much weaker T is so for most people spironolactone is pretty redundant. i wouldnt put much faith in nizoral - it hasnt really helped me in terms of any maintenance anyway.
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Jacobo said:
People on here will disagree but I don't think the vast, vast majority of people will lose their hair in the first few years on dutasteride. Most will gain some and some of those people will gain a noticeable amount.
DHT is really far more destructive than plain old T in my estimation. But we don't even know that a substantial increase in T is produced in the follicle on Avodart. Bryan has said over and over again that he doesn't trust those scalp testosterone measurements by Rittmaster and those measurements are for the entire scalp as well, not just inside the follicle, where the situation could be totally different.
G
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IBM said:
is 50 mg enough to do anything? i would have thought you'd need at least 100 a day.
blaze
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I just bumped up to 0.5mg of dutasteride per day for the last week.
How much type 2 5AR was I inhibiting inside the hair follicle when I was on dutasteride M/W/F?
Will upping the dosage to everyday make a difference? It seems as though it may, 4 more capsules of dutasteride per week will hopefully make a difference.
How much type 2 5AR was I inhibiting inside the hair follicle when I was on dutasteride M/W/F?
Will upping the dosage to everyday make a difference? It seems as though it may, 4 more capsules of dutasteride per week will hopefully make a difference.
G
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blaze said:
MWF= ~95% type 2 5AR
every day = ~98.5% type 2 5AR
It should give more regrowth on average
blaze
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Well theres not much difference in those numbers at all. I cant see how there would be much more benefit from taking dutasteride once a day compared to if you took it M/W/F. Theres like a 3-4% percent difference.
Maybe thats why Glaxo pulled out of those FDA trials. How much more type 2 could 2.5mg per day inhibit if 0.5mg per day already inhibits 98.5%?
At most it would be 1.5% which would totally snuff out any type 2 activity at the hair follicle site. But would that extra 1.5% make difference?
Plus 2.5mg per day would be way too expensive for an Androgenetic Alopecia treatment. Only the rich could afford that.
I wonder if anyone is taking 2.5mg per day? With type 2 completely eliminated you would at least expect there hairloss to completely STOP. If it didnt other androgens must be responable for Androgenetic Alopecia too.
hair today gone tomorrow
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other androgens are responsible for Androgenetic Alopecia
Don't forget, dutasteride is also more effective across all the different genetic variants of 5ar - therefore more likely to be effective on a person.
Also, it should be noted that the reduced percentages of DHT is measured from the blood. We still don't know if it is the DHT produced within the follicle, or in the blood, which causes the miniaturization. It's likely to be both.
Also, it should be noted that the reduced percentages of DHT is measured from the blood. We still don't know if it is the DHT produced within the follicle, or in the blood, which causes the miniaturization. It's likely to be both.
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Rage said:
There are a few separate lines of evidence which, taken together, strongly suggest that it's follicular DHT which is the much more important factor, and that DHT itself doesn't have much of a role as an endocrine hormone in the body:
1) I read in a medical journal article (I wished I had saved it, so I could cite it) that most molecules of DHT formed within cells go on to bind to androgen receptors within that same cell. If that's true, then the implications are obvious.
2) Serum DHT is eliminated fairly rapidly, so it obviously can't hang around long enough to have much of an endocrine effect.
3) The animal experiments (and at least one small human experiment) with topical 5a-reductase inhibitors (for example, the hamster study with the topical fatty acids) show an effect only where they're actually applied, strongly implying once again that serum DHT isn't doing anything to keep those hamster flank organs going. Reducing only the local DHT was sufficient to sharply inhibit their growth. So if that's the case with sebaceous glands which are exquisitely sensitive to androgenic stimulation, is it really so difficult to believe that it's also the case with hair follicles?
4) Conversely, sharply reducing serum DHT with finasteride had no effect on sebum production in humans in Imperato-McGinley's study which I posted about recently, again showing that serum DHT doesn't seem to have any detectable effect on sebaceous glands. Why would one expect it to have much effect on hair follicles?
5) Dr. Proctor has said numerous times on alt.baldspot that endocrinologists have traditionally been taught that DHT only has an effect where it's actually produced (which is to say, it again doesn't have much of a role as an endocrine hormone).
Bryan