Investigating An "immuno-androgenic" Model Of male pattern baldness

[Ted Buckland]

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[DoctorHouse]

If you really look at it, hair loss is a form of an "autoimmune process". It's your body attacking your hair follicles and destroying them to the point they don't recycle new hair. Dr Proctor has discussed this back in the day. However, the general theory is that DHT is involved. So many conditions have an autoimmune component like Lupus, Hashimoto's, Alopecia areata, Rheumatoid arthritis, Type 1 Diabetes, Sjogren's syndrome and Sarcoidosis are just a few to mention.

 

[Trichosan]

Since your focus is on discovery of the fundamental processes of hair growth, it would be helpful if you could list here the biochemical pathways we do know that are involved with hair cell differentiation. I know this is critical in understanding cancer cell growth and why they can become resistant to chemo and radiation therapy. I mention this only as an example because somehow cancer scientists have discovered these pathways that occur within the cell and extracellularly. If only there was the same dedication and massive effort that could be put into the hair issue. In fact, one could argue, if the most brilliant minds currently working on cancer research were to shift to the subject at hand, we might have already solved the problem.

 

[baldboys]

Im pretty sure everyone knows Androgenetic Alopecia is auto immune by now. But while the immune system is the executioner, killing you beautiful follicles, DHT is the bastad that marks then for death. Also, whats an easyer target? Your immune system - meaning good old immune supression wich has been proven too fail on its own (see corticoids vs Androgenetic Alopecia) or targeting DHT, the real culprit of all this sh*t? I think its quite straitght foward.

 

[baldboys]

I just thought of this point as well, although don't know if there are studies on it.. Having a large masculine jaw is supposedley attractive to women because it indicates that during puberty, your body was exposed to high levels of testosterone, and this indicates that you could tolerate the Immuno-supressive action of testosterone.
And it is just during puberty when testosterone is at it's lifetime high at 17 years of age, and thus when the immune system is in that state of comprimise, that DHT resultant hairloss begins. So again just an anecdotal link between the immune system and androgenetic hairloss.

and also relevant then is when balding levels are most severe in the majority of men (80% norwood 7s in their 80s),
although testosterone and DHT are very low, the immune system is much much weaker than in younger males, so that would again support the theory that the immune system is at work in hairloss.

You are losing yourself here.An autoimunne factor to Androgenetic Alopecia means your own imune cells are the ones that will kill your follicles, not that hairloss will be caused by a deficient immune system. That makes no sense at all.

 

[DoctorHouse]

I don't know if it is auto-immune.
But I am willing to bet that there is some immune system irregularities going on.

Biological systems are incredibly complex. It would be nice to just say it's completely auto-immune or that the immune cells are not working properly at all and that's why Treg signals are reaching the stem cells.
....but I don't think it is that simple.

It is tempting to just think in binary on/off terms, but we have to acknowledge that the intricate balance of the biological system is much more complex than can be interpreted in a one step conclusion.

Of course it's not completely auto immune because aging becomes a factor too. As you age, your hair follicle diameter can get smaller and you produce less collagen. So there are different multi factors that cause hair loss but you don't know how many factors are happening at the same time. You can have my case where I have Hashimoto's and male pattern baldness. Which is actually causing my loss? Plus I take medications that could cause hair loss. Plus I tend to stress about things alot. So its hard to isolate. However, that is why we generalize and just say its DHT doing most of the damage. Sorry but I don't think anyone in this forum can cure baldness but if you want to pontificate go ahead.

 

[baldboys]

Of course it's not completely auto immune because aging becomes a factor too. As you age, your hair follicle diameter can get smaller and you produce less collagen. So there are different multi factors that cause hair loss but you don't know how many factors are happening at the same time. You can have my case where I have Hashimoto's and male pattern baldness. Which is actually causing my loss? Plus I take medications that could cause hair loss. Plus I tend to stress about things alot. So its hard to isolate. However, that is why we generalize and just say its DHT doing most of the damage. Sorry but I don't think anyone in this forum can cure baldness but if you want to pontificate go ahead.

Truth is Androgenetic Alopecia is not a disease. Its a syndrome. There is just a multitude of factors and changes going on to bring us the clinical condition.

 

[paleocapa89]

What fascinates me is the different pathology between males and females. Males will develop the horseshoe pattern while females will lose hair diffusely. However male to female transgenders in some cases grow back a sh*t ton of hair after nuking themselves with female hormones, while female to male transgenders can develop the horseshoe when pumped full with testosterone.

 

[plisk]

Im pretty sure everyone knows Androgenetic Alopecia is auto immune by now. But while the immune system is the executioner, killing you beautiful follicles, DHT is the bastad that marks then for death. Also, whats an easyer target? Your immune system - meaning good old immune supression wich has been proven too fail on its own (see corticoids vs Androgenetic Alopecia) or targeting DHT, the real culprit of all this sh*t? I think its quite straitght foward.

go on then, order some dutasteride. Get back to us on how great the DHT annihilate approach works out for your hair.

Its like f*****g groudhog day on these forums. Literal castration will not cause regrowth, so why do you people keep stubbornly placing your faith in this overly simplistic boneheaded approach?

its like the broscience of disease treatment, lol u just gotta annihilate da dht bro

 

[pegasus2]

go on then, order some dutasteride. Get back to us on how great the DHT annihilate approach works out for your hair.

Its like f*****g groudhog day on these forums. Literal castration will not cause regrowth, so why do you people keep stubbornly placing your faith in this overly simplistic boneheaded approach?

its like the broscience of disease treatment, lol u just gotta annihilate da dht bro

It does cause some regrowth, and castration combined with minoxidil and estrogen causes complete to near complete regrowth.

 

[baldboys]

go on then, order some dutasteride. Get back to us on how great the DHT annihilate approach works out for your hair.

Its like f*****g groudhog day on these forums. Literal castration will not cause regrowth, so why do you people keep stubbornly placing your faith in this overly simplistic boneheaded approach?

its like the broscience of disease treatment, lol u just gotta annihilate da dht bro

Once the immune system has ended its act there is no reversing. DHT is the kick starter. Castratated males dont lose hair, thats until you start suplementing then with testosterone wich is converted in DHT, then their baldness just catch up. 5 alfa redutase deficiency kids also never go bald, thats actually how the idea of finasteride came to life, while sudying the deficient kids population in Costa Rica.

How are you calling 50 years of research in Androgenetic Alopecia bro science is beyond me.

 

[plisk]

Once the immune system has ended its act there is no reversing. DHT is the kick starter. Castratated males dont lose hair, thats until you start suplementing then with testosterone wich is converted in DHT, then their baldness just catch up. 5 alfa redutase deficiency kids also never go bald, thats actually how the idea of finasteride came to life, while sudying the deficient kids population in Costa Rica.

How are you calling 50 years of research in Androgenetic Alopecia bro science is beyond me.

Listen to me carefully since your reading comprehension is poor: castration does not cause regrowth.

If physically REMOVING the engine of androgen production in your body will not do anything but maintain your current head of hair, what makes you think ANY amount of anti-androgens is going to do better than this?

Thats the issue, and thats why the obsessive focus on DHT is a dead-end. Yeah congrats if you're one of the ~50% responders to finasteride and you spotted your hair loss early enough, and hopped on straight away, you've got very few problems.

For everyone else, its not a sufficient treatment. Ergo that "50 years of research" is a dead end. And will continue to be a dead-end as long as people keep talking about DHT and not the other factors involved.

 

[pegasus2]

By the way, Dutasteride reduces DHT levels more than physical castration.

 

[DoctorHouse]

By the way, Dutasteride reduces DHT levels more than physical castration.

Yes, but from a cost effective perspective, you are better off with castration.

 

[abcdefg]

go on then, order some dutasteride. Get back to us on how great the DHT annihilate approach works out for your hair.

Its like f*****g groudhog day on these forums. Literal castration will not cause regrowth, so why do you people keep stubbornly placing your faith in this overly simplistic boneheaded approach?

its like the broscience of disease treatment, lol u just gotta annihilate da dht bro

Name one thing though that can regrow large amounts of hair? Oh right there arent any. That is why the nuke the DHT thing is still around because the only practical treatment is propecia/dutasteride and trying to prevent male pattern baldness from getting worse. No one knows how to regrow hair or duh we would be doing that instead.
The theory is terrific, but what physical product actually regrows hair using that? If you cant apply your theory of suppressing or stopping the immune system from attacking hair what good is it?

 

[baldboys]

Listen to me carefully since your reading comprehension is poor: castration does not cause regrowth.

If physically REMOVING the engine of androgen production in your body will not do anything but maintain your current head of hair, what makes you think ANY amount of anti-androgens is going to do better than this?

Thats the issue, and thats why the obsessive focus on DHT is a dead-end. Yeah congrats if you're one of the ~50% responders to finasteride and you spotted your hair loss early enough, and hopped on straight away, you've got very few problems.

For everyone else, its not a sufficient treatment. Ergo that "50 years of research" is a dead end. And will continue to be a dead-end as long as people keep talking about DHT and not the other factors involved.

let me enlarge that for you, cause it seens you couldnt see it: "Once the immune system has ended its act there is no reversing". Once you are bald, you are bald, there wont be any drug that will reverse that, only hair cloning or peharps neogenisis as staded by follicula. DHT is the kick starter, of course after the genetical sensibility to it, if you cut DHT on the beggining of the all process you stop the process. There wont ever be a clinical solution that will regrow hair that is long gone. Again, once the act is done ITS DONE.

 

[DoctorHouse]

Name one thing though that can regrow large amounts of hair? Oh right there arent any. That is why the nuke the DHT thing is still around because the only practical treatment is propecia/dutasteride and trying to prevent male pattern baldness from getting worse. No one knows how to regrow hair or duh we would be doing that instead.
The theory is terrific, but what physical product actually regrows hair using that? If you cant apply your theory of suppressing or stopping the immune system from attacking hair what good is it?

We all wish it could be this easy:

 

[rclark]

We all wish it could be this easy:



View attachment 56106

So do I, but that guy is definitely a Norwood 0 or one.

 

[GiveMeAccessToMyAccount]

Why does finasteride by itself reverses hair loss in some* people then if you say finasteride has no effect on hair growth?

Is it because they caught this hypothetical immune problem early enough? And those who only stop or slow down hair loss with finasteride just caught it too late?

Also, how about people who use dutasteride and see thickening of long miniaturized hairs?

Btw, I like your post, you made some interesting points.

 

[GiveMeAccessToMyAccount]

Im pretty sure everyone knows Androgenetic Alopecia is auto immune by now. But while the immune system is the executioner, killing you beautiful follicles, DHT is the bastad that marks then for death. Also, whats an easyer target? Your immune system - meaning good old immune supression wich has been proven too fail on its own (see corticoids vs Androgenetic Alopecia) or targeting DHT, the real culprit of all this sh*t? I think its quite straitght foward.

Not even close.