Interesting Read

[goata007]

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-04/uorm-sfo041907.php

Key Point:

The work shows starkly that simply cutting off the supply of hormones like testosterone will have only a limited effect. The androgen receptor can still play a crucial role in the development of cancer, even without the hormones. The team has shown in other studies that even female hormones such as estrogen can turn on the androgen receptor.

"The activity of the androgen receptor is different from the activity of hormones that target the receptor," said Chang. "We've shown very clearly that even without these hormones, the receptor is still active in the development of cancer. This is crucial information as doctors seek to develop treatments for diseases like prostate or bladder cancer in men."

 

[goata007]

....Seems like knocking out the receptor is the way to go.

If we use ASC-J9 to destroy the receptor...would the effect, theoretically, be similar to stripping off both type-I & II dht? i.e. would the sebum output be decreased? body hair dependent on dht?

 

[harold]

A good anti-androgen should have the same effect. The problem is that even things like estrogen while capable of competing with DHT at the receptor and being much less efficient at activating the AR still do activate it at high enough concentrations or at least to some degree. This is a problem in prostate cancer because the cells can mutate to express ARs that compounds with very little androgenic effect such as hydroxyflutamide and bicaltuamide are quite good at stimulating.
I dont think its a real worry in hairloss when you cconsider that a scalp full of something as androgenic as textosterone is enough to allow most guys to maintain as finasteride and dutasteride show.
hh

 

[elguapo]

I vaguely remember studying receptors in my high school biology class, about 15 years ago. The book compared receptors to a key or a puzzle, where the receptor had to "fit" or bind to the other molecule for things to happen. I'm sure this was something of a simplification, but still, I just wonder why the hell scientists haven't come up with a way to block those DHT or androgen receptors already.

 

[harold]

You are referring to the lock key analogy of ligand receptor binding.
Scientists have come up with compounds that block androgen receptors and these have been availiable for decades. The issue is antagonising the receptor locally without also giving you gynecomestia, impotence, no libido etc.
hh

 

[goata007]

The issue is antagonising the receptor locally without also giving you gynecomestia, impotence, no libido etc.
hh

so a topical (assuming it doesn't have systemic absorption) should be able to antogonize the receptor without the side effects right?

 

[harold]

If it actually worked as a topical should then yes. If there is anything out there that is a) powerful enough to stop hair loss b) has a local to sytemic effect ratio that is large enough that you can avoid systemic side effects and is c) affordable d) practical e) cosmetically accptable etc. is the question.
IMHO, something like spironolactone, as a strong antiandrogen that is quickly metabolised in the body into a weaker one, has part b down but I kind of think it falls down in terms of effectiveness and there are concerns with odour, stability etc. On the other hand flutamide, as a weak antiandrogen that is quickly metabolised in the body into a very strong one, has the power to do the job but is the very antithesis of what you would look for as a drug for topical/local use. I am not convinced that all available antiandrogens have this problem though.
hh

 

[Bryan]

It would appear that RU58841 is the most effective topical antiandrogen yet developed, but the problem as every one knows is cost and availability.

 

[powersam]

spironolactone every 3 hours or so i reckon. no cost or availability problems, but applying it every few hours could be an issue.

 

[Bryan]

spironolactone every 3 hours or so i reckon. no cost or availability problems, but applying it every few hours could be an issue.

If I were to do a Sebutape test of topical spironolactone, applying spironolactone several times a day (like 10 times a day, for eample), would all of you accept that as a legitimate test of spironolactone as a topical antiandrogen?

 

[michael barry]

Bryan,

I think most reasonable people accept that spironolactone twice a day is about as effective as finasteride, and since it works in a different way (receptor blockage), it should strengthen the anti-androgenic effectiveness of finasteride a great deal.

The problem with spironolactone is application (doesn't spread that well), potential smell (if you sweat or do something exertive), and extra cost, etc. Folks would rather have a "do it all" alpha five-inhibiting, receptor blocking topical, and until then, they will complain.........its just human nature.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

I think most reasonable people accept that spironolactone twice a day is about as effective as finasteride...

God, I hope you're right about that, Michael, but it would be great to have some really rigorous experimentation to prove that, and I'm talking about a study with actual haircounts or hairweights. There was the Italian study with topical spironolactone, of course, but that one left a lot to be desired as to methodology. There's also the other one with topical spironolactone in women, but that was rather vague, too. There's even that one that Dr. Proctor talks about being passed around by hand at a medical conference which supposedly got haircount improvements with topical spironolactone that were rather similar to what you get with finasteride, but his copy of that study was lost (I jokingly refer to it as the "Phantom spironolactone Trial"! ).

But what bothers me a bit is that I have a short report of a trial from a medical journal which found that topical spironolactone had no effect on sebum production in humans; that's worrisome because sebum production is a typical test by which topical antiandrogens are measured. Topical 17a-propylmesterolone was definitely found to significantly reduce sebum production in acne patients in a German study, and so have other antiandrogens like 11a-hydroxyprogesterone, not to mention EGCG and fatty acids like GLA in Liang & Liao's patent application. So why did spironolactone fail to reduce sebum in that published trial?? :shock:

The really cool thing about all this is that when it comes to measuring sebum output, I personally am armed and dangerous! I have a supply of Sebutape test-strips, and I know how to use 'em! :mrgreen: I can certainly do a VERY intense application of topical spironolactone to oily areas of my face (several times a day, in fact), and then measure any change in sebum production with a pretty fair amount of sensitivity. If I see little or no change, it will only reinforce the impression I've gotten over the years that topical spironolactone simply isn't a particularly effective antiandrogen.

 

[michael barry]

Bryan,


That is good news (your possession of Sebutape strips). I hope, if its not to big of a hassle, that you can test topical green tea extract also. Ive been "testing" topical beta sitosterol, and so far........................Im getting no real change in chin whiskers with it. Its been over a month, and Im beginning to think its just not effective. Peppermint oil/water profoundly diminshed whiskers on the other side of my chin and was already lessening beard growth by the same amount of time. Im actually trying green tea/black tea on one side of my face in the shaving area also.

I hope to run up on something that decreases beard hair. As Ive said before, I dont think any of us are going to be able to synthesize a better trichotic than what Proctor already has come up with, but we might be able to trip up on an anit-androgen. I'd like to see fluridil tested on beard hair, and I'll probably try it on myself at some point.

 

[goata007]

But what bothers me a bit is that I have a short report of a trial from a medical journal which found that topical spironolactone had no effect on sebum production in humans; that's worrisome because sebum production is a typical test by which topical antiandrogens are measured.

I have been rubbing Lee's spironolactone cream on my shaved head since monday. I can confirm it does nothing for scalp oiliness. However, as I pointed out in another thread, I always used to have that weired itchy feeling in my scalp ever since I started balding. minoxidil liquid used to make it worse, minoxidil foam didn't do anything but spironolactone has almost taken care of it. Still strange about the sebum though, as I was expecting spironolactone to help with that as well.

 

[goata007]

Just found this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2972662

And this from Wikipedia about spironolactone "Spironolactone has a fairly slow onset of action, taking several days to develop and similarly the effect diminishes slowly."

I probably haven't been using it long enough to see a significant decrease in sebum production.

 

[goata007]

Peppermint oil/water profoundly diminshed whiskers on the other side of my chin and was already lessening beard growth by the same amount of time. Im actually trying green tea/black tea on one side of my face in the shaving area also.

Do you think peppermint/water combo would be as effective on body hair? arms, chest etc? I have bit of a austin powers theme going on :mrgreen:

I hope to run up on something that decreases beard hair.

Didn't peppermint/water take care of that? btw, did it decrease the density of beard hair or their growth rate?

 

[michael barry]

goata,

yes..............the peppermint oil and water severely slowed beard growth. Thats the thing though......................Im concerned that it might actually do something to hair as well as being an anti-androgen based on some of Alpecin's tests. You see, caffeine alone increases hair growth, but keratinocyte activity with the alpecin product as a whole showed it slowed cells down to about half of controls that were given no Testosterone. Ive began to think Bryan was right and there is something in menthol that is bad for hair.


If you want a chin like a 16 year old's though................peppermint oil and water will do the trick. In three months time the right side of my chin looked like my cheek vs. the left side which is Grizzly Addams if I dont shave it.

 

[goata007]

goata,

yes..............the peppermint oil and water severely slowed beard growth. Thats the thing though......................Im concerned that it might actually do something to hair as well as being an anti-androgen based on some of Alpecin's tests. You see, caffeine alone increases hair growth, but keratinocyte activity with the alpecin product as a whole showed it slowed cells down to about half of controls that were given no Testosterone. Ive began to think Bryan was right and there is something in menthol that is bad for hair.


If you want a chin like a 16 year old's though................peppermint oil and water will do the trick. In three months time the right side of my chin looked like my cheek vs. the left side which is Grizzly Addams if I dont shave it.

Would it be as effective on body hair? if I just leave it on for few hours (2-3) and then take shower that should be somewhat effective too right? and where do you get peppermint oil from?

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

goata,

yes..............the peppermint oil and water severely slowed beard growth. Thats the thing though......................Im concerned that it might actually do something to hair as well as being an anti-androgen based on some of Alpecin's tests. You see, caffeine alone increases hair growth, but keratinocyte activity with the alpecin product as a whole showed it slowed cells down to about half of controls that were given no Testosterone. Ive began to think Bryan was right and there is something in menthol that is bad for hair.


If you want a chin like a 16 year old's though................peppermint oil and water will do the trick. In three months time the right side of my chin looked like my cheek vs. the left side which is Grizzly Addams if I dont shave it.

Would it be as effective on body hair? if I just leave it on for few hours (2-3) and then take shower that should be somewhat effective too right? and where do you get peppermint oil from?

yes it would be effective on body hair....just google it and you can find places that sell it.
I wouldnt be surprised if some supermarkets carried it.

 

[goata007]

yes it would be effective on body hair....just google it and you can find places that sell it.
I wouldnt be surprised if some supermarkets carried it.

I googled and found a LOT of links that talk about peppermint oil good for scalp massage? nothing specifically about hair removal. Plus most of the links that sell products under "peppermint hair removal" use it because of its cooling/calming property?