How Can A 18 Y/o Male Regrow Hairs After Initial Shedding From Anti-androgens?

[helloimhere]

Your hair looks very good, I'm only 1 year older than you and would kill to have hair like yours. Lol.
I tried Bica a while ago and noticed increased hair loss and low libido, because of this (but mainly because of the increased hair loss) I stopped taking it. But in hindsight I probably wasn't on the drug long enough to see if it would've worked.
I also bought lots of spironolactone and was on the drug for around a month until I had to stop taking it due to constantly needing to use the toilet - the drug is designed for that, the AA properties are just a side effect from what I understand.
My hair loss is still really bad at the moment and I turn 20 soon, it's definitely a lot worse than yours. I'm on 2ml minoxidil and 0.5mg dutasteride EOD at the moment but see no hope for the future.

 

[Ein]

I've been on strong anti-androgens for nine months to be able to say that they work for me. You should have been patient. Even my shedding was too bad, and it is what this whole thread was about (quite obvious from the title).
And yes, I forgot to mention that it does affect libido, because the androgen receptors in brain are also blocked. But, to be honest, I didn't really notice because I was already apathetic towards this entire concept of libido and sex drive, to begin with.

 

[helloimhere]

I've been on strong anti-androgens for nine months to be able to say that they work for me. You should have been patient. Even my shedding was too bad, and it is what this whole thread was about (quite obvious from the title).
And yes, I forgot to mention that it does affect libido, because the androgen receptors in brain are also blocked. But, to be honest, I didn't really notice because I was already apathetic towards this entire concept of libido and sex drive, to begin with.

Well my advice on regrowing hairs would be to use topical things like Minoxidil, RU, maybe Topical Estrogen (but I'm not sure on that one). Minoxidil definitely works but it sucks that your dad won't let you take it. It is odd that your dad will allow you to use all these serious pills but won't let you rub some harmless liquid on your head every night.

 

[helloimhere]

I've also just stumbled on a thread about Enzalutamide and Darolutamide that looks interesting, though I don't know much about them. I'll probably end up impulse buying them when I have another breakdown over the condition of my hair

 

[Ein]

Well my advice on regrowing hairs would be to use topical things like Minoxidil, RU, maybe Topical Estrogen (but I'm not sure on that one). Minoxidil definitely works but it sucks that your dad won't let you take it. It is odd that your dad will allow you to use all these serious pills but won't let you rub some harmless liquid on your head every night.

Even I'm curious about the reason why my dad prohibits me from using minoxidil. He said that he needs the treatment to be guaranteed effective and safe. Since minoxidil doesn't have 100% success rate, he asks me to refrain from using it. Additionally, I have a very sensitive skin. Therefore, he suggested not to use topical treatments.
As far as spironolactone is considered, I never really asked him about it. I took it and he didn't even know. But bicalutamide was a different story. I researched about all the information (not literally all of it) about bicalutamide, prepared a document on the statistical analysis of the research data collected from the clinical trials on bicalutamide and showed it to him. Since the document contained links to all the references, he was compelled to allow me to use it. And that's how it all happened.
Anyway, I don't need help with regrowth now. I think bicalutamide is doing it for me.

 

[helloimhere]

I researched about all the information (not literally all of it) about bicalutamide, prepared a document on the statistical analysis of the research data collected from the clinical trials on bicalutamide and showed it to him. Since the document contained links to all the references, he was compelled to allow me to use it.

So you really prepared him a physical document? That's cute . After that he must've realised how much you wanted it.
Anyway, you could also try Loniten, its an oral form of Minoxidil so is said to increase hair (everywhere). There's also some heart risks associated with it so watch out.

 

[Ein]

So you really prepared him a physical document? That's cute . After that he must've realised how much you wanted it.
Anyway, you could also try Loniten, its an oral form of Minoxidil so is said to increase hair (everywhere). There's also some heart risks associated with it so watch out.

No, it wasn't a physical document. It was a soft copy that I emailed him. That's why it had links, as in, links to web pages.
And oral minoxidil is not safe in his opinion.

I've also just stumbled on a thread about Enzalutamide and Darolutamide that looks interesting, though I don't know much about them. I'll probably end up impulse buying them when I have another breakdown over the condition of my hair

Oh, even I read that article. That thread was interesting. But the fact that cost and availability are also worth consideration makes me ignore such threads for the time being. I might try them after a few years, if I feel the need to do so.

 

[Maave]

I just realized you're in India. Have you checked out ormeloxifene as an alternative to tamoxifene? It's only available in India. There is not much English-language literature about it so I don't know how good it is compared to tamoxifene and raloxifene. If you can find more info then it could be cheaper than tamox.

I spoke with some who is MTF transgender who took bicalutamide + ormeloxifene for 1 year (before dropping the ormeloxifene). She said this:

I first started Raloxifene and saw soreness/growth stop after a few weeks, and then I switched to a maintenance dose of ormeloxifene (twice the dose as used for birth control). This held any breast growth at bay for a year and a bit, although I'm facing a caveat now- getting breast growth to restart later is rather difficult

So it's effective. I'm only concerned with possible side effects. There aren't enough studies in English for me to be confident.

 

[Ein]

I just realized you're in India. Have you checked out ormeloxifene as an alternative to tamoxifene? It's only available in India. There is not much English-language literature about it so I don't know how good it is compared to tamoxifene and raloxifene. If you can find more info then it could be cheaper than tamox.

I spoke with some who is MTF transgender who took bicalutamide + ormeloxifene for 1 year (before dropping the ormeloxifene). She said this:



So it's effective. I'm only concerned with possible side effects. There aren't enough studies in English for me to be confident.

Wow, thanks for the suggestion. I never really found anything about ormeloxifene on the internet, so I never really knew that it existed. As far as breast tenderness is concerned, I started using Metformin a couple of weeks ago, since I found an article saying that it acts as a breast specific aromatase antagonist, along with other awesome effects. The problem that I found with SERMs was that we don't know how SERMs affect the estrogen receptors of hair follicles.

Besides, I am really interested in the case on this MTF transgender that you mentioned. Is there any chance I can contact her too?
Was Bicalutamide the only drug that she used for her HRT?

 

[Ein]

I just checked the Wikipedia article about Ormeloxifene and it definitely has no side effects (since I don't think I have any chance of getting delayed menstruation, lol).
Besides, I dropped my Tamoxifene a couple of months before starting Metformin, and there were no signs of breast tenderness and gynecomastia, if I ignore the fact that I was literally on a very small dosage (20mg twice a week).

 

[Maave]

Wow, thanks for the suggestion. I never really found anything about ormeloxifene on the internet, so I never really knew that it existed. As far as breast tenderness is concerned, I started using Metformin a couple of weeks ago, since I found an article saying that it acts as a breast specific aromatase antagonist, along with other awesome effects. The problem that I found with SERMs was that we don't know how SERMs affect the estrogen receptors of hair follicles.

Besides, I am really interested in the case on this MTF transgender that you mentioned. Is there any chance I can contact her too?
Was Bicalutamide the only drug that she used for her HRT?

The person is u/Precursor13 on Reddit. She was on bicalutamide + raloxifene/ormeloxifene for only the first year. From our chat it sounded like she changed HRT after the first year to get breast growth.

 

[Maave]

I just checked the Wikipedia article about Ormeloxifene and it definitely has no side effects (since I don't think I have any chance of getting delayed menstruation, lol).

I forgot to reply to this part. Since ormeloxifene behaves like tamoxifene and raloxifene I would expect the side effects to be similar as well. There are likely side effects that haven't been discovered. There haven't been enough studies to uncover them yet.

 

[Ein]

I forgot to reply to this part. Since ormeloxifene behaves like tamoxifene and raloxifene I would expect the side effects to be similar as well. There are likely side effects that haven't been discovered. There haven't been enough studies to uncover them yet.

Exactly. That's the reason I refrain from using any SERM. There haven't been enough studies to find out whether SERMs have agonizing action of estrogen on hair follicles or antagonizing. And looking at the side effect profiles of Tamoxifene and Raloxifene makes me wanna scream out of horror.
Someone on this forum shared with me a link to an article that stated that some women on Tamoxifene experienced hair loss in female pattern. That was quite convincing to me because hair follicles and breast tissues are both a part of the skin.
Then I did a little research and found out that the receptor-ligand complex that Tamoxifene forms with estrogen receptors of hair follicles are structurally similar to the complexes that estrogens form.
This paradox forced me to back off.

 

[Retinoid]

Exactly. That's the reason I refrain from using any SERM. There haven't been enough studies to find out whether SERMs have agonizing action of estrogen on hair follicles or antagonizing. And looking at the side effect profiles of Tamoxifene and Raloxifene makes me wanna scream out of horror.
Someone on this forum shared with me a link to an article that stated that some women on Tamoxifene experienced hair loss in female pattern. That was quite convincing to me because hair follicles and breast tissues are both a part of the skin.
Then I did a little research and found out that the receptor-ligand complex that Tamoxifene forms with estrogen receptors of hair follicles are structurally similar to the complexes that estrogens form.
This paradox forced me to back off.

To make it more complicated not all SERMS behave the same way. Tamoxifen and Raloxifene act very differently for example. Raloxifene is an antagonist in the uterus and Tamoxifen is an agonist. Tamoxifen is proven to be bad for hair and skin. Raloxifene actually is a more potent collagen synthesizer than Estradiol in the skin.

There are a few problems with extrapolating info on SERMS and applying it to men:

1) The dosages used for women are usually higher as they are used for breast cancer.
2) The benefits are studied in mostly post menopausal women, which have an estrogen and Androgen deficit, so the SERM is making up for the deficit.
3) Pre menopausal women for example actually LOST bone mineral density on Raloxifene, which is used for osteoporosis. Most likely because it is still not equal to Estradiol for bones and was displacing Estradiol from binding to the receptors. Of which pre menopausal women have enough of.
4) We are men and hormones affect women and men differently. Even estrogen affects men and women differebtly--for example high estrogen alpha agonism actually causes CATAGEN in men's hair.

SERMs are good for gyno prevention (Tamoxifen, Raloxifene) and HPTA restart for secondary hypogonadism where the hypothalamus becomes oversensitive to suppression (Clomid). The best thing to do is keep them at the lowest dosages and/or shortest duration.

 

[Ein]

To make it more complicated not all SERMS behave the same way. Tamoxifen and Raloxifene act very differently for example. Raloxifene is an antagonist in the uterus and Tamoxifen is an agonist. Tamoxifen is proven to be bad for hair and skin. Raloxifene actually is a more potent collagen synthesizer than Estradiol in the skin.

There are a few problems with extrapolating info on SERMS and applying it to men:

1) The dosages used for women are usually higher as they are used for breast cancer.
2) The benefits are studied in mostly post menopausal women, which have an estrogen and Androgen deficit, so the SERM is making up for the deficit.
3) Pre menopausal women for example actually LOST bone mineral density on Raloxifene, which is used for osteoporosis. Most likely because it is still not equal to Estradiol for bones and was displacing Estradiol from binding to the receptors. Of which pre menopausal women have enough of.
4) We are men and hormones affect women and men differently. Even estrogen affects men and women differebtly--for example high estrogen alpha agonism actually causes CATAGEN in men's hair.

SERMs are good for gyno prevention (Tamoxifen, Raloxifene) and HPTA restart for secondary hypogonadism where the hypothalamus becomes oversensitive to suppression (Clomid). The best thing to do is keep them at the lowest dosages and/or shortest duration.

So, it's best to stay away from them because the collagen synthesis benefit must be due to ER alpha upregulation and it might be disastrous for our hair. No one wants catagen.
What do you think about using Metformin for gynecomastia, breast tenderness, anti aging, liver health and all those without hair thinning?

 

[Retinoid]

So, it's best to stay away from them because the collagen synthesis benefit must be due to ER alpha upregulation and it might be disastrous for our hair. No one wants catagen.
What do you think about using Metformin for gynecomastia, breast tenderness, anti aging, liver health and all those without hair thinning?

No for Raloxifene the collagen synthesis is not due to ER alpha. It is partially mediated by its actions on estrogen and partially through other processes independent of estrogen. Raloxifene also is beneficial for prostate cancer. So there ARE a lot of benefits to SERMs, for specific purposes. They may not be as helpful for people who have a good amount of Estrogen already however in terms of blood lipids, bone health, etc. and may actually have negative effects in these regards if you have healthy estrogen levels already.

I never heard of Metformin being used for gynecomastia. I personally would go with Berberine--its actions are just as powerful as Metformin on blood sugar control and AMPK.

 

[bridgeburn]

, it's best to stay away from them because the collagen synthesis benefit must be due to ER alpha upregulation and it might be disastrous for our hair. No one wants catagen.

there was a thread somewhere on this. It basically said ER beta is primarily in scalp which benefits hair. also estradiol induces catagen in fur hair in mice because of ER alpha. I wouldn't be surprised if it has negative effect on body hair yet positive in scalp through the different receptors being part of different hair.

 

[Ein]

No for Raloxifene the collagen synthesis is not due to ER alpha. It is partially mediated by its actions on estrogen and partially through other processes independent of estrogen. Raloxifene also is beneficial for prostate cancer. So there ARE a lot of benefits to SERMs, for specific purposes. They may not be as helpful for people who have a good amount of Estrogen already however in terms of blood lipids, bone health, etc. and may actually have negative effects in these regards if you have healthy estrogen levels already.

Irrespective of that, the action of Raloxifene on hair is still unknown. And even if it doesn't affect hair growth, a healthy lipid profile and bone density is still important. NSAAs, in my opinion, make the body form healthy estrogen levels to regulate the HPG axis, since androgens are pretty much useless in the body. So, taking NSAAs(Bicalutamide) and SERMs(Raloxifene) together is not very appealing.

I never heard of Metformin being used for gynecomastia. I personally would go with Berberine--its actions are just as powerful as Metformin on blood sugar control and AMPK.

I had a post on an already existing Metformin thread where I shared a link to a page that suggested that Metformin could be a possible treatment of breast cancer which is both safe and effective, unlike conventional Aromatase Inhibitors, because Metformin supposedly acts as a breast-specific aromatase inhibitor. Other effects on lipid profile, blood sugar levels and AMPK upregulation are a bonus.
Though Berberine is good for these purposes, there are a few problems with it. Firstly, there hasn't been enough research on it to determine its safety and effectiveness. Secondly, its effects on hair follicles is unknown, just like SERMs. Thirdly, its effects as a breast-specific aromatase inhibitor isn't documented. And finally, its bioavailability is very low.

 

[Ein]

there was a thread somewhere on this. It basically said ER beta is primarily in scalp which benefits hair. also estradiol induces catagen in fur hair in mice because of ER alpha. I wouldn't be surprised if it has negative effect on body hair yet positive in scalp through the different receptors being part of different hair.

The possibility exists. Hair thinning is a documented side effect of SERMs, but the area of the body isn't mentioned. There are anecdotal reports of hair thinning in scalp from use of SERMs, but like I said, the ligand-receptor complex theory also exists. But binding to the correct receptor isn't the last step. The type of transcriptional regulation generated is also important. Even if the receptor is ER beta in hair follicles of scalp, there is a possibility that SERMs transcripts corepressors instead of coactivators (like Bicalutamide's action on androgen receptors) or they do nothing but block the position that needs to be occupied by estrogen molecules (like Cyproterone Acetate's action on androgen receptors). SERMs are pure enigma.
(The web pages that provide us information about side effects of drugs don't mention where the hair loss occurs. There are a lot of examples, but that one that comes to my mind first is Mesterolone. The side effects list includes hair loss and hair growth, but the areas aren't mentioned. Though we do know where these side effects might be observed.)

 

[bridgeburn]

The web pages that provide us information about side effects of drugs don't mention where the hair loss occurs.

This world believes hair loss is not a real medical disorder