Help with topical finasteride side effects. with blood measurements

[badnewsbearer]

So I have tried oral finasteride many times in many variations and dosages. 1.25mg, 1mg, 0.5mg, 0.25mg, 0.25mg EOD. I always got the same sexual side effects which are:
libido significantly reduced but that in itself is not the great issue, the biggest issue is the severe erectile dysfunction. not as in weaker erections but hard to even get blood in and erection subsides immediately when something is off. like an ad in the p**rn or just not being concentration is enough. no morning erections and erections without manual stimulation are impossible.


after reading some anecdotes that were quite positive I started topical finasteride. I stopped oral and switched to 0.025% topical. I was initially feeling that it might work out because while I totally agree there is systemic impact of topical finasteride, studies with this dose have suggested less DHT reduction even after a year on the drug(35% reduction with topical vs 55% with oral 1mg). however I had the exact same side effects and also in the same intensity. it is so odd to me that having less of a DHT reduction does not come with less sexual side effects.

I have to say I have not measured my DHT on the topical but will do so tomorrow morning. I did take measurements on the oral version and off of finasteride and will share them below:
reference range in brackets



oral finasteride 1mg:

DHT: 12.5 ng/dl (ref: 22-114)
total testosterone: 501ng/dl (ref: 270-1100)
free T: 11 ng/dl (ref: 6-18)
estradiol: 60ng/l (ref: 20-45)




no finasteride(baseline):

estradiol: 33 ng/l (almost doubled on oral finasteride and way out of reference range)
total testosterone: 435ng/dl
free T: 10 ng/dl
DHT: 28ng/dl (finasteride lowered DHT by 55% just like the study)

second baseline a year earlier:
total T: 580 ng/dl
free T: 20 nd/dl




I also did another one on 0.25mg oral finasteride:

estradiol: 55ng/dl
total T 580ng/dl
free T 20ng/dl

(no DHT measurement this time. but testosterone was much higher than other measurements, estradiol higher than baseline but lower than higher dose oral finasteride)



bottom line, these experiments have taught me nothing. I can kind of see why I am getting sexual side effects. my baseline DHT is at the bottom of the reference range which includes old men as well. my baseline estrogen is not as low as it should be considering my mid range total testosterone. so I am already mildly estrogenic baseline.

oral finasteride clearly reduced my DHT to levels far below the reference range. however at the same time my total testosterone is still mid range if not low. additionally my estrogen has spiked far exceeding the reference range in every test I did.



i will be interested to see the value for topical finasteride 0.025% but I already know I cannot tolerate it because I have severe sexual side effects again.


so to you, do you think there is any value in trying a different version of finasteride? sure there must be a concentration that does not kick my estrogen into total overdrive and doesnt affect DHT so much? its so unfortunate that I am balding so aggressive but everything seems to take place in the scalp, my scalp is highly androgenic but my body is extremely low in androgenicity. I am losing hope of finding a finasteride dose that does not cause any sexual side effects.

I read that some on reddit tried 0.01%, 0.005% and lower and still had sides. next idea would be a liposomal solution to minimize absorption and still do something about the obviously high scalp DHT levels. anybody had success with that and blood values to show? mazarella study has shown no serum DHT reduction however I am starting to doubt the validity of their study at this point.

thanks

 

[badnewsbearer]

i lowered the dose to 0.01%, the dose from the mazarella study. still I have severe erectile dysfunction and no libido on this dose. it is beyond my understanding why the study can state "no serum DHT changes have been observed" in their study and I have such severe sides where it is obvious that finasteride must go systemic quite a lot

 

[hudsonhawke]

Have you tried taking a break from finasteride and seeing if the libido gets better? Do you get any other sides like the gyno or depression?

 

[badnewsbearer]

Have you tried taking a break from finasteride and seeing if the libido gets better? Do you get any other sides like the gyno or depression?

i have not done a break. I do not have any other side effects, physical or mental. just the lower libido and ED. I have lowered to 0.01% with 1-2 day breaks a week to avoid accumulation. at this point my dose is so low, I think my itch is coming back again. btw libido itself is not the problem, it is lower but still normal. the problem is that I cant keep an erection for even a few seconds without stimulation and its hard to get them too. I will do a blood test soon and then get off of finasteride and try again without having been on oral directly before. maybe there was some accumulation effect but I doubt it because it should have been replaced after 8 weeks topical

 

[PRIMEN]

Because finasteride is such a poison for some people, including me.

I also tried different dosages, topical version, every other day, every third day, every fourth day, even once a week lol. Nothing works for me, I get the same side effects in the end.

You should try topical anti-androgens, Ru58841 or pyrilutamide. Your body won't tolerate finasteride and 5AR inhibition in general.

 

[badnewsbearer]

Because finasteride is such a poison for some people, including me.

I also tried different dosages, topical version, every other day, every third day, every fourth day, even once a week lol. Nothing works for me, I get the same side effects in the end.

You should try topical anti-androgens, Ru58841 or pyrilutamide. Your body won't tolerate finasteride and 5AR inhibition in general.

this makes no sense biologically. finasteride is not some mysterious drug and when someone cannot tolerate it there is a biological reason for it. people just throwing out topical anti androgens as if they were products readily available on some market. you are literally putting an untested chemical from china brewed up in some shady lab in your body, every single day. people are worrying about prescription drugs made there and sold in the west but this is not that, its literally a black box.

the reason someone gets sides on finasteride is because their DHT and thus androgen estrogen balance gets out of what. there must be a dose where this does not happen. it does not make any sense to have the same side effects when your DHT is suppressed 75% vs 20% and your estrogen is up 100% vs just merely 20%. people on these forums try to make finasteride the single most mysterious drug on the planet, everything can happen, nothing makes sense
we only need to reduce it in the scalp, the delivery is the key here, no topical anti androgen will be side free for those suspeptible to it, it won't be any better with pyrilutamide for people who get sides with finasteride and not with RU either. because too much of the drug is delivered where it simply does not belong and too little to where it does.

 

[hudsonhawke]

It may be that you need to fully get it out of your system, maybe a month - 6 months off finasteride to see if the erections get better.

 

[badnewsbearer]

so I have done this experiment all over again:

i have waited 3 months to get finasteride out of my system @hudsonhawke

i have obtained a liposomal topical finasteride 0.01% from a compounding pharmacy, I have started using it 6 weeks ago with blood tests.

0.01% 1.5 ml a day blood tests after 4 weeks:

serum DHT: -17%
total T: same
estradiol: +15%


it does work. I stopped shedding completely, the itch has been completely eliminated. after 6 weeks it feels as effective as oral finasteride. however, the sexual side effects have not improved. I find this so crazy. I did so much research on this topic. a 17% decrease in serum DHT is often not even statistically significant due to test errors, thats how minor it is. my libido is very low but bearable. however, I have severe erectile dysfunction. to the point where I cant even masturbate with p**rn.

the crazy thing is, my hormones compared to oral finasteride improved so much.

oral finasteride increased my estrogen by 110%!!! now its only up by 15%, just barely increased. my DHT compared to oral finasteride is 100% INCREASED, I have twice as much DHT in my body know as I did on oral finasteride. but not only have the sides not completely gone away, there is barely a difference. to me this biologically makes no sense.

even in people with androgen deficiency, their function improves in a DOSE DEPENDENT manner. so why would I not see a difference? my T/E ratio is 3 times better, DHT is suppressed but barely so. testosterone fluctuates more on a daily basis than I have affected my DHT at this point.

i dont know what to do. it works still which is good and indicates just how effective finasteride is for me so I want to make it work with as little finasteride in the circulation as possible by a combination of low dose, chosing the right vehicle etc.

does someone have any idea? like, on a biologically basis. not just "you cant tolerate this blablabla" thats not very scientific and there must be an underlying reason. e.g DHT is important for erectile function because androgens facilitate smooth muscle relaxation and increase nNOS and eNOS production in the penis which are vasodilators. however, then a 100% increase in DHT surely should have a positive difference? not as in perfect erectile function but less ED than when I had basically zero DHT in my body?



I am fit, healthy, I have normal hormonal parameters, high free T and normal total T. a 17% decrease in DHT should not give me severe sexual dysfunction? I could not find anyone else that has done this kind of experiment so idk what's going on.

 

[badnewsbearer]

Because finasteride is such a poison for some people, including me.

I also tried different dosages, topical version, every other day, every third day, every fourth day, even once a week lol. Nothing works for me, I get the same side effects in the end.

You should try topical anti-androgens, Ru58841 or pyrilutamide. Your body won't tolerate finasteride and 5AR inhibition in general.

thanks. I read your other post, in contrast to you, I have ZERO non sexually related side effects, no acne, no gyno, my cognitive function is not changed one bit (how would it with just 17% DHT reduction) however my libido is trashed and I have severe ED.

it just seems so strange to me despite normal androgen parameters (my DHT is now even within the normal range of the test reference) I have more severe symptoms than 90% of people on a much higher dose who had a much more severe intervention into he hormones than I did.

my Dr explained to me that androgens fluctuate more from morning to evening than I did reduce my DHT. its also strange that sexual side effects are the only ones I ever had and that they are so pronounced. one would think if I had a severe libido issue to to low androgens, that I had other effects usually associated with hypogonadal men like mood disorder, depression, cognitive decline but I have none of these at all. its depressing because it is still VERY effective for me even at this low dose with very low impact on serum DHT


now I wonder, have you tried other anti androgens? really it seems to me like there is no way around anti androgens for androgenic alopecia and when you cant tolerate them you might as well leave this forum

 

[PRIMEN]

now I wonder, have you tried other anti androgens? really it seems to me like there is no way around anti androgens for androgenic alopecia and when you cant tolerate them you might as well leave this forum

I only tried finasteride so far. I'd like to try pyrilutamide but it's too expensive for me at the moment.

 

[badnewsbearer]

I only tried finasteride so far. I'd like to try pyrilutamide but it's too expensive for me at the moment.

what do you think of what I figured out? to me it makes no sense. on oral finasteride I had massive estradiol increase and my T/E was basically insanely bad like I had double the estrogen that I should have had based on T. DHT was half the lower boundary of the reference range. now it is still effective, hair loss basically stopped as with higher doses, DHT within the range, estrogen/T basically normal now only slightly elevated. I did not expect no sides but what confuses me is that they aren't really improved. if we assume lack of androgens is the issue then a major increase in androgens should show some improvement I thought.

i was very confident that I have figured this out, 5AR being a paracrine hormone and being elevated 2-3 fold in balding scalp really only needs to be reduced locally. in theory it would be possible to have finasteride like effects in the follicle and ZERO effect on serum dht with the perfect vehicle. mine is far from perfect but 17% decrease in a hormone that is deemed so unimportant by doctors that it never even gets measured is kind of nuts that this causes these issues for me.

I would also like to try pyrilutamide however at this point I am convinced that it doesnt even matter, that I will have these anti androgenic side effects on every drug that touches the androgen pathway. however I still am very confused and think its possible to have mostly just a local effect

 

[PRIMEN]

what do you think of what I figured out? to me it makes no sense. on oral finasteride I had massive estradiol increase and my T/E was basically insanely bad like I had double the estrogen that I should have had based on T. DHT was half the lower boundary of the reference range. now it is still effective, hair loss basically stopped as with higher doses, DHT within the range, estrogen/T basically normal now only slightly elevated. I did not expect no sides but what confuses me is that they aren't really improved. if we assume lack of androgens is the issue then a major increase in androgens should show some improvement I thought.

i was very confident that I have figured this out, 5AR being a paracrine hormone and being elevated 2-3 fold in balding scalp really only needs to be reduced locally. in theory it would be possible to have finasteride like effects in the follicle and ZERO effect on serum dht with the perfect vehicle. mine is far from perfect but 17% decrease in a hormone that is deemed so unimportant by doctors that it never even gets measured is kind of nuts that this causes these issues for me.

I would also like to try pyrilutamide however at this point I am convinced that it doesnt even matter, that I will have these anti androgenic side effects on every drug that touches the androgen pathway. however I still am very confused and think its possible to have mostly just a local effect

Honestly saying I have no idea why it's happening with such a low decrease in serum DHT. I'm sure that in my case it's lack of DHT and hormonal disbalance (free testosterone / estradiol ratio etc.) is what's causing lots of different side effects (almost every possible to some degree to be true) lmao.
I'm thinking of buying 2% minoxidil solution to make my own topical finasteride with very very low finasteride concentration (by crushing one 5mg pill and mix it with 60ml minoxidil solution, it'll be 0.083% per ml) and see if I still have side effects or not. If yes then to what degree.

 

[Dashing_uk]

thanks. I read your other post, in contrast to you, I have ZERO non sexually related side effects, no acne, no gyno, my cognitive function is not changed one bit (how would it with just 17% DHT reduction) however my libido is trashed and I have severe ED.

it just seems so strange to me despite normal androgen parameters (my DHT is now even within the normal range of the test reference) I have more severe symptoms than 90% of people on a much higher dose who had a much more severe intervention into he hormones than I did.

my Dr explained to me that androgens fluctuate more from morning to evening than I did reduce my DHT. its also strange that sexual side effects are the only ones I ever had and that they are so pronounced. one would think if I had a severe libido issue to to low androgens, that I had other effects usually associated with hypogonadal men like mood disorder, depression, cognitive decline but I have none of these at all. its depressing because it is still VERY effective for me even at this low dose with very low impact on serum DHT


now I wonder, have you tried other anti androgens? really it seems to me like there is no way around anti androgens for androgenic alopecia and when you cant tolerate them you might as well leave this forum

i have been on finasteride for over 25 years and are now getting ED the way i look at i would be miserable without it so you take a £2 tablet to have sex you are only here once.I have switched to minoxidil max from the usa that has it in the lotion and as they say im here for a good time not a long time who wants to be bald when there isnt a need to be

 

[badnewsbearer]

i have been on finasteride for over 25 years and are now getting ED the way i look at i would be miserable without it so you take a £2 tablet to have sex you are only here once.I have switched to minoxidil max from the usa that has it in the lotion and as they say im here for a good time not a long time who wants to be bald when there isnt a need to be

even Cialis isn't really doing it for me

 

[badnewsbearer]

Honestly saying I have no idea why it's happening with such a low decrease in serum DHT. I'm sure that in my case it's lack of DHT and hormonal disbalance (free testosterone / estradiol ratio etc.) is what's causing lots of different side effects (almost every possible to some degree to be true) lmao.
I'm thinking of buying 2% minoxidil solution to make my own topical finasteride with very very low finasteride concentration (by crushing one 5mg pill and mix it with 60ml minoxidil solution, it'll be 0.083% per ml) and see if I still have side effects or not. If yes then to what degree.

I just dont get why there isn't a different to oral finasteride for me in terms of severity of the side effects

 

[supermusic]

Topical finasteride would gives you the same sides as oral.

I really do not recommend finasteride as it’s mechanism of action is way larger than only inhibit 5ar et reduce DHT.

There is a bunch of other neurosteroide and hormones who are altered after using finasteride.

Some people do not have side base on their DNA expression, we have seen in recent studies that some other people with some DNA variation could be more sensitive to side.

On the global picture i would not alter some crucial body function on the autonomous system for my hair.

Everyone do what he want but it worth highlighting it.

 

[hudsonhawke]

so after the three months getting it out of your system did you try a cold turkey period to see if erections would go back to normal without being on any meds?

 

[badnewsbearer]

so after the three months getting it out of your system did you try a cold turkey period to see if erections would go back to normal without being on any meds?

yes they did go back to normal after 4-5 days off of finasteride. then I got back on the super low dose and 3 days later it was just as bad as before

 

[badnewsbearer]

thats the kind of noscientific post I meant. its super useless. I have barely any suppression in DHT, and my question in particular is, if DHT is so useful I should most CERTAINLY see a significant improvement in the side effects going from super low dht levels to now inside the reference range and 100% HIGHER than on oral finasteride. also if you dont want to touch your body's physiological function how the hell would you treat ANDROGENIC alopecia. the expression stuff makes no sense either. of course this is the difference but it still makes no sense why an individual would have severe sides on oral and then the exact same severity of sides on topical with not just a low dose but BARELY any DHT suppression

 

[badnewsbearer]

I would be very glad if someone could chime in here.

my Dr ordered another bloodiest and it proofs that finasteride does indeed not accumulate at small doses and DHT reduction is still at -15% now.
sides still the same.

can anyone understand what's going on with my body? I can see the argument for why some people(with an overall apparently well tolerated drug) see side effects with oral finasteride and -50-70% DHT reduction which often is accompanied by a rise in SHGB and estrogens.

however in my case, I have completely limited the dosage and my DHT is only reduced by 15%. in fact, 2 years ago I did another test and my serum DHT today is higher ON the low dose topical finasteride than back then without finasteride. so its not like I am running my DHT into the ground and while on the lower end, its within the reference range(almost nobody on oral finasteride has DHT in the reference range bc even if you have high DHT before it fells 2/3)

my estrogen is mildly increased by 10% but can this realistically have such a dramatic effect?

the strangest thing to me is the disambiguity between super high and low dose. on oral finasteride I had insane estrogen at 63ng/dL now its 39ng/dL and wishing normal range (20-47). DHT is now more than TWICE AS HIGH as compared to 0.25mg oral finasteride. but the sides almost as strong.

could it be that the DHT reduction is not the problem then if doubling it doesnt really make me fell better? a 100% increase is quite a lot I expected it to vastly minimize the ED.

any insight is appreciated.