Has anyone switched from 5% to 15% and got better results?

[Bryan]

Good point Bryan and very interesting. I appreciate you taking the time to lay this out. Let me ask this, would using 5% minoxidil, say 3 times day be any more beneficial than using it twice?

It might be slightly more beneficial, but I certainly wouldn't expect any really significant difference.

I've previously posted the abstract of an interesting study from several years ago that looked at the systemic absorption of minoxidil from multiple applications per day (like as many as 8 times per day!), and their findings seemed to imply that even a normal twice-a-day application probably comes close to saturating the skin with minoxidil, with more frequent applications not having much extra effect. Considering that they used only a 3% minoxidil solution in that older study, it seems to me that modern 5% solutions would be even MORE likely to saturate the scalp with just the normal twice-a-day routine.

 

[Bryan]

Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1989 Apr; 45(4): 396-402.
"Absorption of minoxidil after topical application: effect of frequency and site of application." Eller MG, Szpunar GJ, Della-Coletta AA.
Clinical Pharmacy Unit, Upjohn Company, Cincinnati, OH.

The effect of application site and frequency on the systemic absorption of topical minoxidil was studied in 52 normal men. Subjects received 1 ml 3% minoxidil solution applied four, six, or eight times daily to the scalp or two, four, six, or eight times daily to the chest for 14 days. Serum and urine were collected and analyzed for minoxidil. No systemic minoxidil accumulation occurred from increasing application frequency to the scalp. Trends in the chest data suggest that absorption may have been lower with the twice-daily regimen. Absorption through the scalp and chest were similar for the lower-frequency regimens; however, trends in the eight-times-a-day regimens suggest that absorption may have been somewhat greater from application to the scalp. Systemic minoxidil accumulation resulting from frequent application is unlikely. The initial dose probably saturates the skin for a period of time longer than the dosing intervals examined.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

First of all, thank you again for the study as well as a breakdown of facts. In that case "slightly more beneficial" vs cost may not make much sense for me. The problem I am having is I started minoxidil 5% 4 years ago just due to thinning and the onset of a balding spot forming on my crown the size of a half dollar with very thin hairs in the middle. I applied it twice per day as directed and also added Nizoral 1% everyday of the week, leaving it on for 45 minutes and also bought standardized 85% - 90% saw palmetto gels 360mg and added 3 to a bottle of minoxidil. Keep in mind I was appling minoxidil to my entire top of my head and was going through 1 bottle per week of minoxidil which I still do now. Within 1 year the bald spot was gone and my hair never looked better, (some on these forums would say a Norwood 0). This stayed the same for 2 years and then it started to fall apart but not in the back, instead my hairline. I jumped on propecia and think I stabilized things but have lost alot of ground that I want to regaine. This is why I am considering stepping up the program but I just don't want to waste money if the results would not be any different. I have experimented with dutasteride as well and do alternate it in my routine with finasteride. I would say I am a Norwood 2 or so diffusing behind the hairline. Is there anything more than what I am doing that may help my hairline in your opinion? Obviously a hair transplant is an option if nothing else works.


Thanks again,

-PropeciaJunkie

 

[zxAddict]

Well, I use Joe's hairmuck added to my minoxidil (the result is referred to as minomuck I think), should provide a lot more kick than just the Saw P extract. Also, work in topical DHT inhibition/AR blocking etc. For instance, I use spironolactone (2% liquid/5% cream), Revivogen and Tricomin. Oh, and nizoral. No finasteride for me, its right up there with arsenic a far as my body is concerned.

 

[IBM]

Bryan, i'm using once a day 5%. Do you know how many years minoxidil will have effect on my scalp? Or its forever (as long as i apply it to my skin).

 

[Bryan]

Is there anything more than what I am doing that may help my hairline in your opinion?

You seem to be a good responder, judging by how the baldspot at the back disappeared!

You may not like what I'm about to say, but you asked for my opinion, so I'm going to give it to you! You're now using finasteride, which is good; and you're using LARGE amounts of minoxidil all over the top of your head (you said you're using a whole bottle every week). If I were you, I'd cut back on the minoxidil by applying it ONLY to the areas of your scalp that actually need it (your former baldspot, and your hairline). I'd take the money you'd save by using considerably less of the minoxidil and apply it toward using additional agents that you haven't tried before, like (for example) copper peptides (SODs) and maybe Retin-A.

If you can afford it, I'd suggest prescription Proxiphen. You could use a smaller amount of it (like maybe only HALF the recommended dose) ONLY on your hairline, which would hit that difficult area with some of the potent drugs that Dr. Proctor is exclusively associated with, like PBN and TEMPO/TEMPOL, phenytoin, etc. Your scalp hasn't been exposed to any of those unusual agents before, and I'd want to see what your response is to those things. Since you'd be wasting less minoxidil on the parts of your scalp that don't really need it AND you'd be using less than the full dose of Proxiphen, I think your total cost wouldn't be that much more than what you're spending now.

Even if you don't want to go with prescription Proxiphen, I'd change things up a bit by at least adding SOME other new approach, like maybe the cheaper Prox-N, or Tricomin, or Folligen (all of which have copper peptides), etc.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, i'm using once a day 5%. Do you know how many years minoxidil will have effect on my scalp? Or its forever (as long as i apply it to my skin).

I believe it's forever, but keep in mind that it won't stop the fundamental balding process.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Excellent and yes I did ask your opinion and appreciate it alot. I will look these new products based on you recommendation and make a decision on which to try . Oh and yes, fortunately I can afford them, any of them. I will take a look at the prescription and do some research on it first. I was also thinking of throwing laser treament into the mix as well but will cross that bridge in the near future. Seriously Bryan, thank you for the response and sharing your knowledge. It gives me a little hope where there was not much before. Good night.

 

[IBM]

I saw a little of Metallica show in Portugal. The guitar player still have good hair.

 

[ginger-uk]

Ok, so if you were stopping with 5% would you use Rogaine or Kirkland 5% liquid?

Cheers

 

[OverMachoGrande]

I would and DO use the generic. I have used Kirkland, Members Mark, Walmart and Target brands.

 

[zxAddict]

Dunno, but I'm going to try some of Dr Lee's Xandrox 12.5%, 30 mL on the temples only in addition to the regular 5% stuff on the temples. See if that makes any difference.

 

[ginger-uk]

Do you have to registar for that Dr Lees 15% stuff? Has it actually been proven to be any better than 5%?

 

[zxAddict]

You only need a consult with Dr Lee if you are in the USA. If you live outside its not required last time I checked.

 

[messm0rph]

so I have read 4 pages and am more confused then when started.

1. Does 15% work better then 5%

2. Anyone had an personal experience. I can't see any "I switched and had better results" yet posts.

 

[zxAddict]

I don't think anyone knows for sure. There is a question over minoxidil saturation of the scalp and also the delivery vehicle for the high concentration stuff. If I was going to make a guess, I'd say its probably not significantly more effective than 5% - but hey who knows.

 

[TheSkunk]

By the way, you can get the exact same dose of minoxidil by using 3x the dose of 5% and it will spread better, but leave your hair very oily. Prepare for itchiness.

Is there truth to this? If I start applying 5% minoxidil 3 times a day, instead of the usual 2? Will that increase my dosage into 15%? same as the other product?

As Bryan stated the vehicle getting the minoxidil into your scalp is important. However, if you take the same product concentrated at 5% vs 15%, you are getting 1/3 the effective dose of the actual medication per ml. So yes, 3ml of 5% will provide you the same amount of minoxidil as 1ml of 15%. However, you will have 3 ml of liquid to deal with.

To use a direct analogy: 5 tablets of 100mg over-the-counter ibuprofen will provide you the exact same dose as 1 500mg tab of doctor prescribed ibuprofen. You are just ingesting 5x as much of the inactive ingredients.

I have no idea whether the effectiveness of spreading minoxidil of 3 doses vs taking 15% in one dose is superior. I suppose it really depends on the half life of minoxidil, which I have no clue. There is also the question of receptor saturation, etc, so it could be that taking the dose spread out is more effective. This is a whole different debate. It seems like the 15% is targeted to people who are no longer responding to 5%, so I'm guessing there is some receptor downgrade in the theory behind 15% minoxidil.

 

[rcom440]

and also added Nizoral 1% everyday of the week, leaving it on for 45 minutes and also bought standardized 85% - 90% saw palmetto gels 360mg and added 3 to a bottle of minoxidil. Keep in mind I was appling minoxidil to my entire top of my head and was going through 1 bottle per week of minoxidil which I still do now.

Thanks again,
-PropeciaJunkie

You don't have to leave Nizoral for 45 minutes. It takes 5-10 minutes for ketoconazole to be absorbed. I would do top 15 min, no longer.
1 bottle per week of minoxidil? I think that's overkill. I believe less is more when it comes to Minoxidil. I personally get better results when I use it only at night, once a day. I know people who in order to bust Minoxidil's effectiveness, stop it for a day or two, and then continue their regular dosage. They do that once a month or so. I truly believe it's a good strategy.

 

[longtime]

what do you mean "bust Minoxidil's effectiveness"?

 

[rcom440]

what do you mean "bust Minoxidil's effectiveness"?

bust minoxidil's effectiveness = make minoxidil more effective