Finasteride AND Saw Palmetto
- Thread starter Red Rose
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People on this forum are indoctrinated to not think outside the big 3 so before this link gets taken to the experimental forum let me just say this much.
There is far MORE evidence that Saw Palmetto CAN work for hair loss than there is that it can't and there are several studies showing that SP inhibits DHT and/or blocks androgen receptors in other tissues that are affected by DHT.
[useless content edited. content only contained studies on the prostate, which do not in any fashion relate to this discussion, as this is a hair loss forum]
There is far MORE evidence that Saw Palmetto CAN work for hair loss than there is that it can't and there are several studies showing that SP inhibits DHT and/or blocks androgen receptors in other tissues that are affected by DHT.
[useless content edited. content only contained studies on the prostate, which do not in any fashion relate to this discussion, as this is a hair loss forum]
Petchsky
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I have read quite a few SP studies and yes there are alot, but also alot of them are also bunk, with plenty of holes.
I take SP as part of a herbal tablet and i do not feel it has harmed me and certainly seems to have darkend my hair, but there are also many other herbs in the supplement too so i cannot directly attribute that to SP alone.
One thing i know SP is good for is the sex drive, originally, taking proscar i noticed a few wood problems, so to speak, but that is no longer a problem.
One of the reasons some people blast SP is because its found in so many snake oils and the science behind it is used against unknowledgeable hairloss suffers. Alone Sp does not really do anything in my opinion, but i think it can have uses as part of a hairloss regime.
Nuff said.
I take SP as part of a herbal tablet and i do not feel it has harmed me and certainly seems to have darkend my hair, but there are also many other herbs in the supplement too so i cannot directly attribute that to SP alone.
One thing i know SP is good for is the sex drive, originally, taking proscar i noticed a few wood problems, so to speak, but that is no longer a problem.
One of the reasons some people blast SP is because its found in so many snake oils and the science behind it is used against unknowledgeable hairloss suffers. Alone Sp does not really do anything in my opinion, but i think it can have uses as part of a hairloss regime.
Nuff said.
HairlossTalk
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First off, WHY are you showing us studies on the Prostate? This is a hair loss forum, not a forum for treating a completely unrelated condition called BPH. Everyone knows it is absolutely ludicrous to assume that just because something affects one part of the body, that it does the same thing at the other end of the body, for a completely different condition.
If saw palmetto had 1/10th the amount of actual data supporting it that finasteride does, we would be promoting it as a possible helpful other treatment. Somehow you conveniently ignore the fact that we do this with about 10 other non-FDA-approved, Non-Big3, natural supplements, including GSE (Grapeseed Extract) as well as topically applied Saw Palmetto. If anything, you've been indoctrinated to think that only the Big 3 are promoted here. Either way you're wrong.
This isn't about your opinion versus ours. Its about cold hard science. There is none backing SP as an orally ingested supplement. There is minor data supporting it as a topically applied treatment. Do you know why? I honestly doubt it. Either way, please express your opinion without being a wanker.
Saw Palmetto failed miserably in clinical studies to reduce serum DHT to any noticeable extent. This and this alone is why it is considered useless as an orally ingested hair loss treatment.
I also asked you in the last thread (which you never replied to) to explain why there are hundreds of studies showing SP is effective in the prostate but not a single one showing it is effective in the scalp. IM still waiting for that answer from you. This obvious contradiction need to be addressed.
Are you aware of the differences between the DHT bearing tissues in the Prostate and those in the scalp?
Did you know there were significant differences?
Are you familiar with the difference between type 1 and type 2 alpha reductase?
Do you know how serum DHT levels affect the prostate in comparison to how it affects a follicle on the scalp?
Were you aware that there are DHT *producing* structures *inside* the follicle?
Lastly, why are you knowingly starting another SP thread in the wrong forum? Just trying to "Rage against the Machine" ?
:lol:
Don't be a dick. Nobody indoctrinates anyone. The people here are not idiots. The people here are significantly more intelligent than the average person out there who knows nothing about the science and data on things. People here know why a BPH treatment might not necessarily work for hair loss. Do you? You may call it close minded and indoctrinated. We call it being educated.Red Rose said:
If saw palmetto had 1/10th the amount of actual data supporting it that finasteride does, we would be promoting it as a possible helpful other treatment. Somehow you conveniently ignore the fact that we do this with about 10 other non-FDA-approved, Non-Big3, natural supplements, including GSE (Grapeseed Extract) as well as topically applied Saw Palmetto. If anything, you've been indoctrinated to think that only the Big 3 are promoted here. Either way you're wrong.
This isn't about your opinion versus ours. Its about cold hard science. There is none backing SP as an orally ingested supplement. There is minor data supporting it as a topically applied treatment. Do you know why? I honestly doubt it. Either way, please express your opinion without being a wanker.
You make it sound like it shouldn't go there. We move things there to help users differentiate between that which is scientifically backed, and that which isn't, since people such as yourself don't bother saying it in your posts so newbies know the difference.Rose said:
You already spewed this junk 4 days ago and we already replied to it. It is wrong information. There is not "Far more data" that it works for Hair loss. There is Zero data that it works for hair loss. There is quite a bit of speculation. Tons of it. Speculation is not Data. Again, being scientifically minded, and educated, would have lead you to know the diff between data and speculation.rose said:
Saw Palmetto failed miserably in clinical studies to reduce serum DHT to any noticeable extent. This and this alone is why it is considered useless as an orally ingested hair loss treatment.
I also asked you in the last thread (which you never replied to) to explain why there are hundreds of studies showing SP is effective in the prostate but not a single one showing it is effective in the scalp. IM still waiting for that answer from you. This obvious contradiction need to be addressed.
Are you aware of the differences between the DHT bearing tissues in the Prostate and those in the scalp?
Did you know there were significant differences?
Are you familiar with the difference between type 1 and type 2 alpha reductase?
Do you know how serum DHT levels affect the prostate in comparison to how it affects a follicle on the scalp?
Were you aware that there are DHT *producing* structures *inside* the follicle?
Lastly, why are you knowingly starting another SP thread in the wrong forum? Just trying to "Rage against the Machine" ?
:lol:
If you're going to take saw palmetto to the experimental forum then you might as well take revivogen there as well. What is the difference?
Where is the clinical data showing revivogen increases hair counts?
Revivogen is based on the inhibition of DHT by free fatty acids with the studies being conducted on hamster flanks, not humans.
Saw Palmetto is shown to inhibit DHT in other parts of the body. You offer up no logical reason why it would inhibit DHT in one part of the body but not another.
Where is the clinical data showing revivogen increases hair counts?
Revivogen is based on the inhibition of DHT by free fatty acids with the studies being conducted on hamster flanks, not humans.
Saw Palmetto is shown to inhibit DHT in other parts of the body. You offer up no logical reason why it would inhibit DHT in one part of the body but not another.
HairlossTalk
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:Red Rose said:
The answer to your question is in my post above, almost verbatim.
Please answer my questions before you ask more of your own.
Saw Palmetto applied topically does have some scientific logic (no actual data, mind you) backing it. Saw Palmetto ingested orally has zilch. It even has some data explaining why it does *not* work when taken that way.
I am still waiting to hear your explanation for why there are over 100 studies showing SP works in the prostate, but nobody's successfully conducted a study showing that it works for hair loss. The answer to this question also implies that the theory that Prostate = Scalp is incorrect.
HairLossTalk.com
The anecdotal evidence suggests that saw palmetto *might* work more than it *might not*.
I have read FAR more people suggest that saw palmetto has worked for them than is not the case.
Like I said before just because there are no studies proving that it works for hair loss, this doesn't mean that you can prove that it cant work for hair loss.
Androgen receptors are androgen receptors - why should SP be able to compete for androgen receptors in the prostate but not the scalp? Its perfectly reasonable to accept that if something can inhibit DHT production and block androgn receptors in one part of the body then it can do it in another.
The fact that SP may not lower circulating serum levels of DHT in the scalp does not mean that can't work for hair loss because you haven't shown me a study which shows that it doesn't locally suppress DHT in the scalp.
I have read FAR more people suggest that saw palmetto has worked for them than is not the case.
Like I said before just because there are no studies proving that it works for hair loss, this doesn't mean that you can prove that it cant work for hair loss.
Androgen receptors are androgen receptors - why should SP be able to compete for androgen receptors in the prostate but not the scalp? Its perfectly reasonable to accept that if something can inhibit DHT production and block androgn receptors in one part of the body then it can do it in another.
The fact that SP may not lower circulating serum levels of DHT in the scalp does not mean that can't work for hair loss because you haven't shown me a study which shows that it doesn't locally suppress DHT in the scalp.
HairlossTalk
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Enough. This discussion is just plain ridiculous.Red Rose said:
Baloney. I've been on this and the other forums daily for the last 6 years and I have yet to see more than 5 people claim saw palmetto alone worked for them.Red Rose said:
And like I said before, using this logic, pour some urine on your head because it too has no evidence that it doesn't work. I am not going to debate with someone who repeats the worlds weakest arguments over and over like they haven't already been addressed. I've read the studies. All of them.Red Rose said:
Ive come to my conclusion on saw palmetto, as well as sat at the desk of a woman who ran one of the only hair loss saw palmetto studies on the planet - Angela Christiano at Columbia University. She looked me straight in the eyes and said "The stuff did absolutely nothing". If you want to argue, go argue with the researchers. You obviously don't respect my opinion.
Im going to lock this particular thread because it is a *duplicate*, and you just seem to be "raging against the machine" right now, so I see no value in having two simultaneous Saw Palmetto arguments by the same person going on in the same area. If you have more to say (and its something actually new rather than repeating, please do so in the other thread).
End of story.
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