Does the body need DHT?

[DHTfighter33]

Isn't it true that many asians, native americans and genitcally predisposed men don't create this enzyme?

Your first post and very strong belief. Have you references?

Armando

"Japanese and Chinese men have 70-fold less cancer of the prostate than the North American men"
I suppose my statement was merely an observation, and they likely create the enzyme just far less. The internet is replete with information stating that asians have a far less chance of developing prostate cancer, this cannot be just because they eat a better diet than western society. How could one disreguard the fact that DHT is responsible for facial and body hair growth, and they typically have very little. It seems likely to me that many of them just don't have as much 5ar and hence they don't have as much DHT...Prostate cancer...hair loss...body hair. I could not find a good article to support this and it may not be correct, it's just an observation.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:I0f ... d=17&gl=us

 

[abcdefg]

Well heres the problem with that statistic. Those scientists cant possibly correlate the greater incidence of prostate cancer in western society to 5-ar 2 or diet. It very well could be from genetics since most chinese reproduce with each other and have for so long there gene pool could vary a lot from ours and hence there genes are simply different from most western peoples genes. There are so many variables its a complete guess to say anything until the field of genetics can catch up to show some of these things as facts.

 

[jakeb]

I don't know... there are a lot of balding asian men.

Native American I could believe though... Native Americans are known for not growing facial or body hair.

 

[abcdefg]

Science makes a great distinction between coincidence and cause-effect relationships or at least "good" science does. Its a very hard thing to prove if even possible so I guess we can only guess and go by what we see. It only takes 1 counter example to disprove a theory.

Yeah the whole hermaphrodite thing supposedly merk says that is true, but in all honesty without there genetic makeup how do we know its solely dht? Do you know how many hormones, chemical pathways, signals, and all of it correlated to possibly complex timing schemes. I mean to say its dht might be wrong even if merk says they have a biological model. I guess thats just our best guess as of 2007.

I guess im very skeptical of science with regards to the human body just because of how insanely complicated it is to figure anything out and it usually turns out to be wrong a lot of times what we thought before we get a new tool to help us get at a lower level of understanding.

 

[Bryan]

Yeah the whole hermaphrodite thing supposedly merk says that is true, but in all honesty without there genetic makeup how do we know its solely dht? Do you know how many hormones, chemical pathways, signals, and all of it correlated to possibly complex timing schemes. I mean to say its dht might be wrong even if merk says they have a biological model. I guess thats just our best guess as of 2007.

You think it's possibly just a coincidence that the pseudohermaphrodites don't get prostate cancer or male pattern baldness?

 

[abcdefg]

Can you show me the hermaphradites genes mapped out to compare and say theres nothing in there genetics that causes that? There are lots and I mean LOTS of things that could play into this besides simply dht. Science could be right, but I think its premature of merk at this stage of the hairloss game to say that 5 ar type 2 is the definitive reason they dont lose their hair and for that reason solely. There still exists too many important questions to say thats the sole cause of hairloss and even you bryan must admit theres plenty of evidence that other things like testosterone does bind with some affinity to androgen receptors. Also estrogen is helpful to hair. Now how does someone with the triplet gene sequence mentioned in that one study react to dht, estrogen, or testosterone differently from someone that is without that triplet gene sequence? Theres just to many questions still. Im not arguing that dht is implicated in hairloss. It is from all we know. Its not the sole reason though we lose hair theres much more at play, and if 5 ar type 2 enzyme and the hermaphradites is our current biological model then id say we still have a long ways to go and its missing many other things.
There is to much research at this point to say dht is not involved. It certainly is and plays a large role, but its not all.

Im not really trying to argue with you bryan because I know ill lose. I just dont think science is at the doorstep of a cure any time soon.

 

[phish]

Can you show me the hermaphradites genes mapped out to compare and say theres nothing in there genetics that causes that? There are lots and I mean LOTS of things that could play into this besides simply dht. Science could be right, but I think its premature of merk at this stage of the hairloss game to say that 5 ar type 2 is the definitive reason they dont lose their hair and for that reason solely. There still exists too many important questions to say thats the sole cause of hairloss and even you bryan must admit theres plenty of evidence that other things like testosterone does bind with some affinity to androgen receptors. Also estrogen is helpful to hair. Now how does someone with the triplet gene sequence mentioned in that one study react to dht, estrogen, or testosterone differently from someone that is without that triplet gene sequence? Theres just to many questions still. Im not arguing that dht is implicated in hairloss. It is from all we know. Its not the sole reason though we lose hair theres much more at play, and if 5 ar type 2 enzyme and the hermaphradites is our current biological model then id say we still have a long ways to go and its missing many other things.
There is to much research at this point to say dht is not involved. It certainly is and plays a large role, but its not all.

Im not really trying to argue with you bryan because I know ill lose. I just dont think science is at the doorstep of a cure any time soon.

yea but the hermaphrodites have the same dna as their cousins and other family members, only dif is the dht deficiency. the rest of the family can develop acne and has more body hair and hairline recession. is it that hard to believe that lacking a powerful hormone like dht could be the cause of no hairloss in them. im sure if you gave propecia to a 12 year old right b4 he hit puberty up till hes 30 he would have no hair line recession.

 

[abcdefg]

You may be right its just a hard case to make. If testosterone does bind with some affinity then every man unless his hair is completely desensitized to androgens would experience some hairloss even if they had no 5 ar 2 at all just from testosterone slowly over time which every man if he is a man has some of.

 

[Bryan]

Can you show me the hermaphradites genes mapped out to compare and say theres nothing in there genetics that causes that? There are lots and I mean LOTS of things that could play into this besides simply dht. Science could be right, but I think its premature of merk at this stage of the hairloss game to say that 5 ar type 2 is the definitive reason they dont lose their hair and for that reason solely.

Does that mean that you really DO actually consider it to be just a coincidence that the pseudohermaphrodites don't get prostate cancer or male pattern baldness, and not as a result of their 5a-reductase deficiency??

There still exists too many important questions to say thats the sole cause of hairloss and even you bryan must admit theres plenty of evidence that other things like testosterone does bind with some affinity to androgen receptors. Also estrogen is helpful to hair. Now how does someone with the triplet gene sequence mentioned in that one study react to dht, estrogen, or testosterone differently from someone that is without that triplet gene sequence? Theres just to many questions still. Im not arguing that dht is implicated in hairloss. It is from all we know. Its not the sole reason though we lose hair theres much more at play, and if 5 ar type 2 enzyme and the hermaphradites is our current biological model then id say we still have a long ways to go and its missing many other things. There is to much research at this point to say dht is not involved. It certainly is and plays a large role, but its not all.

No, and I've never said that DHT plays the only role in balding. In fact, if you could go back and check all the posts I've ever made on all the hairloss sites going back to alt.baldspot, you'd probably notice that compared to other posters, I generally tend to avoid using the word "DHT" in the first place, preferring instead to use the more general term "androgens". I tend to get sick of seeing everybody talk about DHT this, DHT that! Yes, a constellation of factors influences the progress of balding, including the sex hormones (including estrogen), the natural sensitivity of our hair follicles to those hormones, the type of androgen receptor polymorphism we're born with, various inflammatory factors, and many other things.

But you seem to be missing the main point, which is that having a sharp reduction in DHT (whether it's caused by being a pseudohermaphrodite, or caused by taking 5a-reductase inhibitors like finasteride and dutasteride) is generally sufficient to stop further balding, or at least greatly slow it down. It doesn't mean that having normal levels of DHT is really the actual cause of hairloss. I would have to say that a more fundamental cause of hairloss is the unusual sensitivity to androgens (including DHT), and one of the few ways we have of fighting it is to take drugs which sharply reduce the production of the most potent androgen. Do you see what I'm saying? It's also true that castration is sufficient to stop further balding, but nobody would be crazy enough to claim that balding is caused by having testicles.

Im not really trying to argue with you bryan because I know ill lose. I just dont think science is at the doorstep of a cure any time soon.

It depends on exactly what you mean by the word "cure". We already have the means to greatly slow or even stop further balding (finasteride, dutasteride), but whether or not we'll ever be able to alter our hair follicles' inherent sensitivity to androgens (which seems to me would be closer to the true meaning of the word "cure") remains to be seen.

 

[Bryan]

If testosterone does bind with some affinity then every man unless his hair is completely desensitized to androgens would experience some hairloss even if they had no 5 ar 2 at all just from testosterone slowly over time which every man if he is a man has some of.

No, because it's a matter of degree. Even castration sharply reduces testosterone and DHT, but doesn't eliminate them entirely. But it's sufficient to stop further balding, according to Hamilton.

 

[Pondle]

Do castrated men experience the same pattern of thinning as post-menopausal women?

 

[abcdefg]

I see what you mean bryan. If a man is developing a mature hairline and isnt on the hamilton charts but maybe has a diffuse pattern and isnt on the ludwig scale either does some hair loss just occur with age? The doctor on the balding blog and most hair transplant surgeons say some recession pretty much always happens its part of aging. If hairloss is part of aging then really that hairloss isnt related to hormones at all? or how does that work? Sharply reducing potent androgens say dht does not then completely halt hair loss it only halts what is considered a Norwood 2 on the hamilton scale in most men that it works on?

Oh yeah I guess im saying I do think its a coincidence then and not solely dht. Lowering dht might stop hairloss for some other reason merk doesn't even understand yet. It could change or alter androgen receptors in response to abnormally lower dht or any number of things like higher estrogen, or higher estrogen to testosterone ratio who knows its so complicated where do you even begin to start correlating things?

Doesnt having testicles cause balding though? I mean if we didnt have them we wouldnt go bald well supposedly. Wait if a man was castrated very early on could he go bald because of inflammatory factors? What about through lowering his estrogen or doing other things besides testosterone, or dht. I mean they would still get inflammation and lose hair right if inflammation is a factor sometimes? Arent there many different types of androgens like variations of testosterone that could also cause hairloss?
Maybe im thinking too much.

 

[Bryan]

Do castrated men experience the same pattern of thinning as post-menopausal women?

Unknown.

It would be absolutely fascinating to do a series of modern experiments with the same kind of precision equipment (like computer-assisted hair-counting technology) that was used in the Propecia studies, but this time on eunuchs, pseudohermaphrodites, men with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, and even normal men who don't have any apparent balding at all. That could help settle once and for all these speculative issues we've been discussing on hairloss sites, like the role of true androgenetic alopecia versus "normal" senescent thinning.

 

[Bryan]

I see what you mean bryan. If a man is developing a mature hairline and isnt on the hamilton charts but maybe has a diffuse pattern and isnt on the ludwig scale either does some hair loss just occur with age?

My hunch is that it does, but like I said in my reply to Pondle above, I'd like to see that idea carefully tested and quantified with modern technology.

The doctor on the balding blog and most hair transplant surgeons say some recession pretty much always happens its part of aging. If hairloss is part of aging then really that hairloss isnt related to hormones at all?

If sharply reducing the levels of androgens has at least a very major impact on the degree of balding, then obviously it's related to hormones in some way (which is an understatement! ).

Sharply reducing potent androgens say dht does not then completely halt hair loss it only halts what is considered a Norwood 2 on the hamilton scale in most men that it works on?

Yeah, maybe.

Oh yeah I guess im saying I do think its a coincidence then and not solely dht. Lowering dht might stop hairloss for some other reason merk doesn't even understand yet. It could change or alter androgen receptors in response to abnormally lower dht or any number of things like higher estrogen, or higher estrogen to testosterone ratio who knows its so complicated where do you even begin to start correlating things?

But 5a-reductase inhibitors almost certainly make androgen receptors even MORE sensitive to androgens, which would appear to worsen the desired effect against androgens, at least to some degree. And estrogen levels (like testosterone levels) are only modestly affected. So what do you think William of Ockham would say about your determination to believe that it's NOT the effect of lowered DHT that directly helps stop balding, but something as-yet unknown?

Doesnt having testicles cause balding though? I mean if we didnt have them we wouldnt go bald well supposedly. Wait if a man was castrated very early on could he go bald because of inflammatory factors? What about through lowering his estrogen or doing other things besides testosterone, or dht. I mean they would still get inflammation and lose hair right if inflammation is a factor sometimes? Arent there many different types of androgens like variations of testosterone that could also cause hairloss?

Hamilton thought that castration was sufficient to stop balding, even in the presence of those other factors. That's the bottom-line.

Maybe im thinking too much.

I tend to agree with you on that!

 

[abcdefg]

Thanks for the replies bryan. Such a study to settle those issues would be very good to do much better then half the worthless studies i see scientists wasting time on all the time. I think ive run out of arguments for now

 

[Mew]

Bryan,

What, in your personal/educated opinion, is the root cause of the "permanent" Finasteride side effects for those unfortunate men who have gotten them?

ie, I am specifically talking about those men who come off the drug, who recover their sexual function/libido for a brief period of time back to their pre-propecia state, only to have their Testosterone levels (often LH & FSH as well) and libidos crash shortly thereafter, never to return to the way they felt compared to before taking Finasteride, and in most cases, feeling worse than when they were on the drug with regards to sex drive (more specifically, lack thereof).

For those that have since tried to boost their own endogeneous Testosterone production, reduced elevated Estradiol/SHBG/Prolactin other levels, or gone onto Testosterone Replacement Therapy, there are anecdotal reports of them feeling no different -- their libidos are nowhere to be found, despite correcting any obvious hormonal imbalances.

In your opinion, what mechanisms could be behind this? How could Finasteride's method of action of inhibiting 5AR-derived neurosteroids and DHT cause such problems? What steroidal pathways could have "broken down", so to speak? In other words, where might the problem lie?

Could it be due to androgen receptor mutation, altered 5AR metabolism, AR downregulation or some other factor causing partial androgen insensitivity as a result of Finasteride use, which is now preventing DHT from binding to receptor sites correctly and thus, preventing these men from harnessing the full effects of DHT post-finasteride use?

Altered liver P450 Cytochrome steroid metabolism, particularly CYP19 and CYP21 enzymes which are known to be inhibited by Finasteride?

Extremely imbalanced Testosterone/Estrogen, SHBG and other hormonal ratios causing some sort of shunting to alternate pathways, somewhere along the steroidogenesis hormonal cascade?

Neurochemical changes in the brain involving dopaminergenic, GABA, Allopregnanolone, THDOC and other 5AR-derived neurosteroidal systems which are affected by Finasteride?

Extreme negative feedback caused by a flood of DHT/high Estrogens after stopping finasteride, thus telling the HTPA to lower T to compensate?

I'd be interested to know your opinions on this. Many thanks,

Mew.

 

[abcdefg]

I am also curious to know. Lets keep in mind there are pathways science doesnt know about yet at the molecular level. There could be factors that science has not yet discovered.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

What, in your personal/educated opinion, is the root cause of the "permanent" Finasteride side effects for those unfortunate men who have gotten them?

Short and sweet: I have no idea what's causing the alleged "permanent" side-effects.

 

[Mew]

Oh, ok then.

I figured with your level of knowledge, especially about androgen receptors and Finasteride's method of action etc., that you might have some possible insight or personal theories. Would love to hear them sometime.

Thanks anyway, though.

 

[Bryan]

Hell, I'm not even completely sure that I believe that some guys get "permanent side-effects" from finasteride. I've read a bunch of finasteride studies, but I've never seen any mention of that possibility, and certainly no case history of it. I guess I have an agnostic attitude about the whole thing.