RaginDemon
Senior Member
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thanks for the info Bryan!
Does the body need DHT?
- Thread starter nydheart
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I believe there are permanent sides. I dont think with our current science we can say what exactly a significant reduction in DHT does to someone over time. Yes we have some models, and yes we do know some of the sides. What exactly does DHT do in the prostate? what causes prostate cancer and what exactly does dht contribute to the process and how does timing play into it? science doesnt know. Emerging science suggests its actually dht to estrogen ratios more then just absolute levels of DHT. Is that right? i dont think anyone knows as of today. DHT is very important all over so how exactly does merk demonstrate to us that is safe to change that?
Why does inhibiting dht help the mid scalp and crown so much more then the front? why does dht damage hair after puberty and what is that trigger that makes hairs sensitive and why do different people have different sensitivities to these?
What exactly does the immune system have to do with this whole process? does the immune system attack hairs differently if you have high estrogen? what about a high estrogen to testosterone ratio? I think the problem is science cant ever look at and examine each possibility so we will never be able to answer all these questions.
Why does inhibiting dht help the mid scalp and crown so much more then the front? why does dht damage hair after puberty and what is that trigger that makes hairs sensitive and why do different people have different sensitivities to these?
What exactly does the immune system have to do with this whole process? does the immune system attack hairs differently if you have high estrogen? what about a high estrogen to testosterone ratio? I think the problem is science cant ever look at and examine each possibility so we will never be able to answer all these questions.
abcdefg said:
Merck told the FDA, Merck told the FDA (and here I'm quoting from a meeting of the Dermatological and Opthalmic Drugs Advisory Committee, held on November 13th 1997): "Dr. Juliana Imperato-McGinley... and others identified patients with a genetic deficiency of the enzyme steroid 5-alpha-Reductase, which catalyzes the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone. Males with genetic deficiency of 5-alpha-Reductase were born with ambiguous genitalia which virilizes at puberty. As adults, these men have a grossly underdeveloped prostate but are otherwise healthy with normal male libido and bone and muscle mass and sparse facial and body hair. Most importantly for today's presentation, these men appear to be protected against the development of male pattern hair loss.
The observation in these men with 5-alpha-Reductase deficiency, as well as other investigations, have resulted in the identification of distinct physiological roles for testosterone compared with those for dihydrotestosterone. Testosterone, the principal androgen in man, is necessary for normal spermatogenesis, bone and muscle mass and male libido and potency. Dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, does not appear to have any essential physiological role in the adult male but is involved in the production of beard and body hair, enlargement of the prostate with age and development of male pattern baldness."
The Proscar product monograph states: "individuals with a genetic deficiency of Type II 5 alphareductase... have markedly decreased levels of DHT and small prostates, and... do not develop BPH. These individuals have urogenital defects at birth and biochemical abnormalities but have no other clinically important disorders as a consequence of Type II 5?-reductase deficiency."
What's funny is that for decades, science didn't believe the Appendix had any use in humans.
Well surprise, surprise -- it does have a use after all:
Scientists discover true function of appendix organ
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/ ... tion=world
And here we have Merck telling us that "Dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, does not appear to have any essential physiological role in the adult male"... which is simply ridiculous, as many have found out after taking Finasteride that DHT is indeed VITAL to their proper mental/sexual function.
OF COURSE a company (Merck) that is marketing a product (Finasteride) to surpress DHT (an androgen) for hairloss or BPH is going to tell you DHT serves no purpose... but if you dig deeper beyond the spin doctoring, and review the scientific literature, you will see it does -- many purposes, in fact.
And just like the Appendix, EVERYTHING in the human body serves a purpose -- otherwise it wouldn't BE THERE after millions of years of evolution, since the body is a very efficient machine and eliminates those things it no longer needs.
Bottom line: medical science once said the appendix was useless, now they are changing their tune. The same analogy can be applied to DHT, especially considering Merck's stance.
Well surprise, surprise -- it does have a use after all:
Scientists discover true function of appendix organ
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/ ... tion=world
And here we have Merck telling us that "Dihydrotestosterone, or DHT, does not appear to have any essential physiological role in the adult male"... which is simply ridiculous, as many have found out after taking Finasteride that DHT is indeed VITAL to their proper mental/sexual function.
OF COURSE a company (Merck) that is marketing a product (Finasteride) to surpress DHT (an androgen) for hairloss or BPH is going to tell you DHT serves no purpose... but if you dig deeper beyond the spin doctoring, and review the scientific literature, you will see it does -- many purposes, in fact.
And just like the Appendix, EVERYTHING in the human body serves a purpose -- otherwise it wouldn't BE THERE after millions of years of evolution, since the body is a very efficient machine and eliminates those things it no longer needs.
Bottom line: medical science once said the appendix was useless, now they are changing their tune. The same analogy can be applied to DHT, especially considering Merck's stance.
The pseudohermaphrodites seem to live reasonably well with a much reduced level of DHT, notwithstanding their urogenital defects. As we know they seem to have some positive advantages too - no male pattern baldness, no BPH, no prostate cancer.
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic1980.htm
Of course some men report side effects from reducing DHT levels by use of 5ARIs, but most patients experience benefits, whether for hair maintenance or alleviation of BPH.
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic1980.htm
Of course some men report side effects from reducing DHT levels by use of 5ARIs, but most patients experience benefits, whether for hair maintenance or alleviation of BPH.
Mew said:
actually, vestiges is one of many pieces of evidence in favor of evolution. living whales have for instance been found with hindlimbs. anatomical left overs, so to speak. it is far from certain everything in our bodies is there for a reason. so called "junk dna" is another point.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc ... l_vestiges
however, whether males need dht or not, is a completely different matter.
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The question could be, is Nature squanderer?
I think NO. Only Human being.
Armando
I think NO. Only Human being.
Armando
Those people had urological defects though. Also isnt it different to be born WITHOUT it than to supress it later on in life? Doesnt your body sort of go through a shock which casuses other hormones to f*** about...maybe some peoples bodies cant handle that.
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Hi bubka;
I have not probes, but I don't think that people with absolute COMPLETE androgen insensitivity can survive.
OTOH, androgen metabolism is very complicated.
Armando
I have not probes, but I don't think that people with absolute COMPLETE androgen insensitivity can survive.
OTOH, androgen metabolism is very complicated.
Armando
See heres the thing. Lets say someone takes propecia and artifically lowers there 5ar 2. Now by artificially im just saying you lower your dht to levels your body wouldnt normally produce on its own under normal circumstances. We know dht does a lot but we dont exactly everything it does. I mean does dht effect other cancers besides simply prostate cancer? what about tumors? I mean if you change something that normally circulates through the body then potentially cancer, or tumors, or brain diseases if it crosses the bbb could potentially happen. We just dont know what exactly dht does in say the brain or what happens when we artificially lower it which is different then the pseudo hermaphradites. We cant test dht and its effects on everything its to costly and time consuming. We found the obvious things prostate, hairloss. If your back starts to hurt unusually bad 20 years after propecia and it doesnt go away and science cant find anything does that mean propecia had no role at all? who is to say it didnt?
Abcdefg, there's no evidence that the men with 5ARD are at increased risk of neurological disease or various types of cancer. The key phrase is that researchers have (so far) found "no other clinical abnormalities", aside from the urogenital defects, as a consequence of 5ARD. The very fact of 'being a man' might put you at more risk of certain types of neurological disease - doctors know that women are more likely than men to have depression, anxiety or an eating disorder, while men are at higher risk of Parkinson's disease.
maybe this has already been asked, but could dht have a 'maintenance' function in adult men? dht is important in terms of genital development, so could dht be important in terms of keeping genitals healthy and 'working'?
the reason i ask, is that using finasteride is compared to those with 5-ar deficiency. the latter group seems to live perfectly normal and hairy lives. however, they have, as far as i have gathered, deformed genitals. as such, there is nothing to maintain. so their lack of dht makes no or little difference as they get older.
the reason i ask, is that using finasteride is compared to those with 5-ar deficiency. the latter group seems to live perfectly normal and hairy lives. however, they have, as far as i have gathered, deformed genitals. as such, there is nothing to maintain. so their lack of dht makes no or little difference as they get older.
If you mosey on over to the sides forum you'll see references to a study where enormous doses of finasteride induced changes in the penile tissue of rodents. But there have never been any 'official' reports of this effect at the relatively low doses used in humans and there is certainly nothing in the literature as far as I can see.
did they discover why the the penile tissue was damaged? by that i mean, do they know why lowered dht levels caused damage?
i would think that the levels of finasteride wouldn't really matter that much, as the dht levels of say 1mg of finasteride is almost equal to that inhibited by 5mg.
finally, does finasteride have similar effects in humans and rodents?
i would think that the levels of finasteride wouldn't really matter that much, as the dht levels of say 1mg of finasteride is almost equal to that inhibited by 5mg.
finally, does finasteride have similar effects in humans and rodents?
No the level does matter, despite what some people say. There is a small difference in the DHT inhibition of 5mg compared to 1mg (which is why the former dose is more effective in regrowing hair over 6 months). What's more, the drug does have different effects at varying levels of (huge) doses - see the table below. Some of these relate to the extent of DHT inhibition and some to other mechanisms like the induction of drug metabolizing enzymes (liver weight).
In rodents, finasteride inhibits both types of the 5AR enzyme. In humans, it is selective for 5AR2, although Bryan previously posted that several hundred milligrams per day would probably start inhibiting 5AR1.
In rodents, finasteride inhibits both types of the 5AR enzyme. In humans, it is selective for 5AR2, although Bryan previously posted that several hundred milligrams per day would probably start inhibiting 5AR1.
thanks for the answers pondle. anywho, is it the massive dosage itself of finasteride that is hurtful or is it the level of dht supression? i find it a bit odd that the, relatively, small difference in terms of dht levels would give significantly different side effects.
btw, it looks like i can't use finasteride in any case, so this is more of an academic interest. started taking it two days ago again and the throbbing headaches are back. part of me is actually relieved...
btw, it looks like i can't use finasteride in any case, so this is more of an academic interest. started taking it two days ago again and the throbbing headaches are back. part of me is actually relieved...