Doctors for Medical Liability Reform

[HairlossTalk]

Bruce -

You always quote an entire post instead of what you're specifically replying to, so I have no idea what you're referring to that includes loss of objectivity.

Extract the one line that reflects this and I will respond to you. And yes im fully aware of the # of people who died due to doctor screwups. I posted it earlier. Nearly 18,000 people died due to "errors" in hospitals, I believe in the year 2002. That's just one year.

That only further proves my point.

If you're going to say that you think the number is lower if you include private practice, where there is even fewer checks and balances and many times NO accountability involved, im going to have to respectfully and adimantly disagree. I still don't see where my objectivity has been lost. If the #'s we do have show a staggering 18,000 deaths in ONE YEAR ... I think its pretty obvious that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.... and someone who feels that way hasn't lost any objectivity.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

Deaths in England Due to Medical Errors up 500%
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/2/medical_errors.htm
"About 1,200 people died in public hospitals in Britain last year because of mistakes in prescribing and administering medicine". The death toll was five times higher than that in 1990, according to the report.

And you want to talk about saving money? Here's where a lot of it is being spent:

"The health service is probably spending $725 million a year making better people who experienced an adverse incident or errors, and that does not include the human cost to patients"

Doctors Are The Third Leading Cause of Death in the US, Causing 250,000 Deaths Every Year http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm

"This article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) is the best article I have ever seen written in the published literature documenting the tragedy of the traditional medical paradigm. "

12,000 people die per year due to unnecessary surgery
7,000 people die every year due to medication prescribing errors
20,000 people die every year due to "other" errors
80,000 people die every year due to infections obtained from the medical environment.

Another 106,000 die every year due to pharmaceutical or drug side effects.

"Evidence from a few studies indicates that as many as 20% to 30% of patients receive inappropriate care. An estimated 44,000 to 98,000 among them die each year as a result of medical errors"

"The poor performance of the US medical system was recently confirmed by a World Health Organization study, which used different data and ranked the United States as 15th among 25 industrialized countries."

Again guys, tell me im wrong.... :lol:


Its funny, the largest # is 106,000 people dying EVERY YEAR due to prescription medication side effects. What does this tell me? This confirms everything I've said. Doctors are nowhere to be found, don't involve themselves in their patients lives, bring them in, then boot them out with a paperslip full of meds, and wish them the best. Its not health care. Its a business.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Hairless Potter]

Just think if everyone in the world including myself did their own job to their max potential,there would be no problems>>

Thats the problem. Doctors don't have any room for error. And while I feel bad for them, that is the nature of their profession, and all the more reason why someone in the medical profession needs to get off their butts and start instituting checks and balances. Of course there are thousands of lawsuits, due to thousands of mistakes. You can't expect human beings to be perfect. The medical profession however *is* expected to be perfect, and its the *LEAST* technologically savvy, *LEAST* structured system of any ive ever seen. Most doctors are still working with 500 drawer filing cabinets, and have ancient computer systems.

HairLossTalk.com

Human perfection is quite frankly an unrealistic expectation in any form. Checks and balances are in practice. As far as updating patient records, it is an ongoing process, Rome wasn't built in a day. Patience.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Human perfection is quite frankly an unrealistic expectation in any form. Checks and balances are in practice. As far as updating patient records, it is an ongoing process, Rome wasn't built in a day. Patience.

Scroll up and look at the number of people who died.

This entire discussion should end with that post.

There is no room for debate.

Something needs to change. For you to claim otherwise is just plain old fashioned denial.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Hairless Potter]

"The poor performance of the US medical system was recently confirmed by a World Health Organization study, which used different data and ranked the United States as 15th among 25 industrialized countries."[HairLossTalk.com

So are you still attacking doctors, or the U.S health care system. Because it sounds like you are attacking the system, and if you are I am in complete agreement with you. Our system sucks. :lol:

 

[HairlossTalk]

"MEDICAL MISTAKES KILL 100,000 AMERICANS A YEAR"

http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/med ... stakes.htm

"But patients may never hear of the more subtle errors, like a delay in diagnosis or testing that costs precious time to fight off disease. Medical mistakes costing lives. Medical mistakes are a stunningly huge problem, says a new report by the Institute of Medicine. It quoted studies estimating that at least 44,000 and perhaps as many as 98,000 hospitalized Americans die every year from errors. To put that into sharper and more alarming perspective, even the lower figure of 44,000 deaths exceeds the number of people who die each year either on the highways, of breast cancer or of AIDS."

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

So are you still attacking doctors, or the U.S health care system. Because it sounds like you are attacking the system, and if you are I am in complete agreement with you. Our system sucks. :lol:

Ive said the same thing from beginning to end. Nothing has changed. Here I go repeating myself again:

1. A huge percentage of doctors have issues with arrogance, conceit, and a God Complex which....

2. Leads to total customer dissastisfaction and anger and hurt and frustration which....

3. Also leads to increased incidence of errors in diagnosis due to not doing sufficient diagnostic testing or just plain being too busy or not caring enough to check further which...

4. Leads to errors, misdiagnosis, many times physical harm, sometimes death which...

5. Is all allowed to run rampant because of the horrible medical system, lack of SUFFICIENT checks and balances and a whole entire system full of non accountable individuals making hundreds of thousands of mistakes on every level of the system killing hundreds of thousands of people....

The whole system SUCKS and yes, doctors are a part of it, but a better system could curtail their errors, fatigue, arrogance, and other various human traits. Its everyone and every thing.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Hairless Potter]

20,000 people die every year due to "other" errors
80,000 people die every year due to infections obtained from the medical environment.

Another 106,000 die every year due to pharmaceutical or drug side effects.

HairLossTalk.com

Are these "other" errors mistakes made by physicians, or nurses, aids, techs, pharmacists?

The reason many die each year from infections obtained in the hospital, or nosocomial infections is not the result of malpractice. It is because most people who are hospitalized are extremely ill and immunocompromised secodary to extreme age, or primary medical disease. By virtue of this they are very vulnerable to microbes which healthy individuals can defend against.

Are pharmaceutical side effects the fault of the doctors who prescribe or the companies which produce them?

 

[Guest]

Bruce -

You always quote an entire post instead of what you're specifically replying to, so I have no idea what you're referring to that includes loss of objectivity.

Extract the one line that reflects this and I will respond to you. And yes im fully aware of the # of people who died due to doctor screwups. I posted it earlier. Nearly 18,000 people died due to "errors" in hospitals, I believe in the year 2002. That's just one year.

That only further proves my point.

If you're going to say that you think the number is lower if you include private practice, where there is even fewer checks and balances and many times NO accountability involved, im going to have to respectfully and adimantly disagree. I still don't see where my objectivity has been lost. If the #'s we do have show a staggering 18,000 deaths in ONE YEAR ... I think its pretty obvious that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.... and someone who feels that way hasn't lost any objectivity.

HairLossTalk.com

Actually the number of deaths THOUGHT to be the result of medical error in US hospitals is 80, 000, not 18,000. This includes medical error of ALL types. By far the largest number of deaths is thought to be as a result of presc errors, most of which are NOT caused by physicians per se.

I never inferred that there were more or less errors in office practice. I said no one has any data on this.

It is clear that many fewer office errors result in death, but that is not the point.

The point is that you have proclaimed the MD as the villian in all this and that per se, the number of medical errors are unacceptable.

My question to you is, what is the right number? Is it zero, or ten or what. And where did you get your number from. In other words, I am asking you to show the same level of rigor that you use when discussed male pattern baldness in discussing this issue. So far, I haven't seen it.

I am not defending nor bashing MDs. Simply trying to get out of the emotionally based thinking of "what should be" to why that?

And BTW- how much are you willing to spend to reduce medical error and who should pay for that??



:lol:

 

[Guest]

HairLossTalk.com wrote--Doctors are nowhere to be found, don't involve themselves in their patients lives, bring them in, then boot them out with a paperslip full of meds, and wish them the best. Its not health care. Its a business.


This is exactly what I mean about your loss of objectivity. You take an immensely complicated problem and reduce it to one villian.

And BTW-IT IS ALL BUSINESS, even your website!!

 

[Guest]

HairLossTalk.com wrote--
The whole system SUCKS and yes, doctors are a part of it, but a better system could curtail their errors, fatigue, arrogance, and other various human traits. Its everyone and every thing.

HairLossTalk.com

And this mythical "best" system exists where????

 

[Guest]

"MEDICAL MISTAKES KILL 100,000 AMERICANS A YEAR"

http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/med ... stakes.htm

"But patients may never hear of the more subtle errors, like a delay in diagnosis or testing that costs precious time to fight off disease. Medical mistakes costing lives. Medical mistakes are a stunningly huge problem, says a new report by the Institute of Medicine. It quoted studies estimating that at least 44,000 and perhaps as many as 98,000 hospitalized Americans die every year from errors. To put that into sharper and more alarming perspective, even the lower figure of 44,000 deaths exceeds the number of people who die each year either on the highways, of breast cancer or of AIDS."

HairLossTalk.com

HairLossTalk.com--what is the RIGHT number? Where did you obtain this number from? How does the US compare to other countries. Why do you believe these data to be accurate??

 

[Yardbird]

HairLossTalk.com,
I disagree with your statement that "frivolous lawsuits are not that much of an issue" just because you're not referring to them in your argument. For others in this forum who have disagreed with you on the issue of capping lawsuit dollar amounts, frivolous lawsuits were the main reason. So I think that if the cause of frivolous lawsuits is addressed somehow, then most people in this forum would be more likely to agree with you. I don't think it's correct to state that something "isn't much of an issue" or "isn't that important" just because your position isn't based on it.

Bruce,
You asked me why I think it's reasonable to expect lawyers to be above the behavior of taking frivolous cases. The reason is simple: it's unethical, it can hurt innocent people, and it wastes time and money in our legal system. For those reasons, lawyers who bring such claims to court should be held accountable, just as doctors are held accountable for their mistakes. I think that's just fair.

I'd love to stay and continue this, and I may be on from time to time, but for the next two weeks, I'll be in Laos.
Good luck with the debate.

 

[HairlossTalk]

HairLossTalk.com,
I disagree with your statement that "frivolous lawsuits are not that much of an issue"

I dont recall saying that, and leaving it at that. I think they are an issue, and I've acknowledged that fully. I said the website doesn't just discuss them. It goes several steps further. My personal opinion is if the person wins a lawsuit, the doctor is guilty of harming someone, therefore disqualifying it as frivolous. The site addresses those cases, and still whines that doctors are the victims because they're having to pay so much for hurting people. *** backwards.

I don't think it's correct to state that something "isn't much of an issue" or "isn't that important" just because your position isn't based on it.

I dont even know where you got this. Please reread my posts. Im not of a 1st grader mentality. I would never say something isn't an issue just because my position isn't based on it. I see both sides, and have acknowledged both sides. Please read my whole post, not just parts of it. Thanks.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[maddoc23]

Hairless Potter,

I agree with virtually everything you said. I think the healthcare system cause the problems doctors take all the blame for. I am a first year medical student in Florida and I have quickly become aware of the complexity of medical malpractice.

HairLossTalk.com,

Are you aware that 5% of doctors cause 90% of the medical malpractice awards?? Make sure your vehemence is directed at the appropriate group and is not aimed by scorn and personal experience. These attitudes are pushing doctors out of the profession and keeping medical students away from the high liability specialities. What are you going to do when you need to see a doctor, but there are none. You listed a post that showed how many people die "because" of doctors, now maybe you should also find one that shows how many are saved by doctors. No doubt the system has problems but the vast majority of doctors are not the problem, and I hope you realize that because you are going to need a doctor oneday.

D

 

[Guest]

"I agree with virtually everything you said. I think the healthcare system cause the problems doctors take all the blame for. I am a first year medical student in Florida and I have quickly become aware of the complexity of medical malpractice"


The reality is that there is no "healthcare system" in the way that say, the United Kingdom has a system. In the US, we have a very complex array of players, influencers, regulations etc.

Folks often speak of our system as if someone person or body has set it up in a particular manner. Sorry, but that is not so.

Nor, is that arguably any better. Ask anyone with a serious medical problem if they want to fly to say, Canada or UK to get help.

I wager they would take most US Major Hospitals in a heartbeat.

Reality is, this is a massively complex issue that has been raised that will not be solved with some bromide about whipping the MDs or the lawyers a bit harder.

Sorry, the world just doesn't operate that way and there is plenty of blame to spread around IF we are operating from blame.

:hairy:

 

[Hairless Potter]

Hairless Potter,

I agree with virtually everything you said. I think the healthcare system cause the problems doctors take all the blame for. I am a first year medical student in Florida and I have quickly become aware of the complexity of medical malpractice.

HairLossTalk.com,

Are you aware that 5% of doctors cause 90% of the medical malpractice awards?? Make sure your vehemence is directed at the appropriate group and is not aimed by scorn and personal experience. These attitudes are pushing doctors out of the profession and keeping medical students away from the high liability specialities. What are you going to do when you need to see a doctor, but there are none. You listed a post that showed how many people die "because" of doctors, now maybe you should also find one that shows how many are saved by doctors. No doubt the system has problems but the vast majority of doctors are not the problem, and I hope you realize that because you are going to need a doctor oneday.

D

Thantks. Well put. Good luck with your training. It gets better as you progress. :wink:

 

[Hairless Potter]

Nice post Bruce. Health care reform is a daunting quagmire which eludes a reasonable solution. Just ask Bill Clinton.

 

[Guest]

Nice post Bruce. Health care reform is a daunting quagmire which eludes a reasonable solution. Just ask Bill Clinton.

Yes, that was the last serious effort to "systematize" US Healthcare. Given what happened to that plan, I don't see any POL going there again for a while.

Almost lost his left nut!!

:hairy:

 

[Axon]

Bruce,
You asked me why I think it's reasonable to expect lawyers to be above the behavior of taking frivolous cases. The reason is simple: it's unethical, it can hurt innocent people, and it wastes time and money in our legal system. For those reasons, lawyers who bring such claims to court should be held accountable, just as doctors are held accountable for their mistakes. I think that's just fair.

I'd love to stay and continue this, and I may be on from time to time, but for the next two weeks, I'll be in Laos.
Good luck with the debate.

They can be held accountable, as I've said.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule11.htm

Section C. The language allows for virtually any penalty.