Dispensing with old-fashioned male pattern baldness theories, and one NEW one!

WiseJoeyD

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Thanks! [Changes record]

That's interesting (apolgies if that came across sligthly indifferent!). So, what do you think, if any, triggers this difficulty to get favourable fluid levels in the tissues of the scalp?
Could it be like, in people who produce too much choloestorol or too much DHT faciliatating enzymes, an excessive of lymph in scalp tissue naturally?

How do you think, again if any, androgens affect or 'trigger' this event?

Why does it follow a particular pattern? I actually googled for this and found mention of other primates who use an enlarged forehead (ie frontal balding) to denote stature and maturity thus sort of at least saying what use something like this is, but of course I've always wondered at the pattern since it seems to split into 3 areas:

1: Frontal temples and the "V".
2: Vertex
3: a band of hair between the first two areas that you see 'surviving' on like some ghostly headphone band!

PS This fluid level pressure IS caused by lymph (you mentioned it earlier?)?

PPS Do you think DHT might come in from the whole immune response-angle and this, along with your theory (who else has come to this conclusion) "screws us over"?!

Whoops! Read you private message! Thanks for the info!
 

Bryan

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WiseJoeyD said:
So, what do you think, if any, triggers this difficulty to get favourable fluid levels in the tissues of the scalp?

Uhhh....Joey, can I assume that you're just testing him by asking that question? :wink:

As the study I cited at the very start of this thread clearly shows, balding follicles continue to go bald right on schedule, even when they're moved to parts of the body that have no alleged "edema" or "unfavorable fluid levels".

Bryan
 

WiseJoeyD

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I'm pretty open........what?! [Realises last comment makes me sound like a sl*t! Hurrah!]

Bryan: Is it an immune reaction and/or just plain old DNA-monkey-business that DHT causes? I have a strange tingling, for want of a better expression, on the back of my scalp at the moment (notably in a place of otherwise thick hair! Just below my semi-okay vertex!). This could be irritation caused by such a reaction?

[Correct me, I know I'll be wrong here, but I saw a diagram detailing how DHt marches into, and changes the DNA/tRNA(?) of a folicular cell thus making it act different [miniaturize]. That's basically how DHT interacts with the cell?]
 

Bryan

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WiseJoeyD said:
Bryan: Is it an immune reaction and/or just plain old DNA-monkey-business that DHT causes?

Both. The immune reaction business probably comes in later in the game.

WiseJoeyD said:
I have a strange tingling, for want of a better expression, on the back of my scalp at the moment (notably in a place of otherwise thick hair! Just below my semi-okay vertex!). This could be irritation caused by such a reaction?

Possibly.

WiseJoeyD said:
Correct me, I know I'll be wrong here, but I saw a diagram detailing how DHt marches into, and changes the DNA/tRNA(?) of a folicular cell thus making it act different [miniaturize]. That's basically how DHT interacts with the cell?]

Yes. Androgens bind with androgen receptors, then the entire androgen/androgen receptor complex translocates to the nucleus of the cell where it stimulates certain androgen-dependent genes into beginning the process of RNA transcription/translation. The proteins that are produced as a result of all that are presumably various growth factors and/or growth inhibitors which affect the hair follicle in various ways. If it's a SCALP hair follicle, it's usually a BAD way! :wink:

Bryan
 

WiseJoeyD

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Is there any theory why, for some, inhibiting DHt isn't enough?

Actually this is something I've always wondered about and thought maybe the fact DHT is 'merely' a stronger version of testosterone should clue people that whilst DHT might be removed (well either 40% or 90%), it's friendly neighbourhood hormone is there to still, probably slowly, fill those receptors!!

....or not?!
 

S Foote.

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WiseJoeyD said:
Thanks! [Changes record]

That's interesting (apolgies if that came across sligthly indifferent!). So, what do you think, if any, triggers this difficulty to get favourable fluid levels in the tissues of the scalp?
Could it be like, in people who produce too much choloestorol or too much DHT faciliatating enzymes, an excessive of lymph in scalp tissue naturally?

How do you think, again if any, androgens affect or 'trigger' this event?

You have to remember that DHT `grows' hair over the larger part of the body. According to my theory, this is because DHT increases the natural contraction rate of lymphatic vessels to increase lymphatic pumping. This is a primer on the lymphatic system.

http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/ar ... cle&ID=993

I suggest that this increased lymphatic drainage effect, is the primary action of DHT as a male hormone. This increases tissue fluid turnover, increasing nutrient supply and waste removal in tissues, that would enhance the recognised tissue building actions of other male hormones.

I think this action is where DHT has its `significant' effect on hair growth `in-vivo'. Where there are increased amounts of lymph vessels close to hair follicles, there is increased hair growth, beard, armpits groin. I suggest that the local increased fluid drainage caused by DHT, reduces the pressure and resistence to anagen follicle growth, allowing larger follicles.

The layout of the superficial lymphatic system in the body, matches DHT induced hair growth.


WiseJoeyD said:
Why does it follow a particular pattern? I actually googled for this and found mention of other primates who use an enlarged forehead (ie frontal balding) to denote stature and maturity thus sort of at least saying what use something like this is, but of course I've always wondered at the pattern since it seems to split into 3 areas:

1: Frontal temples and the "V".
2: Vertex
3: a band of hair between the first two areas that you see 'surviving' on like some ghostly headphone band!


I think both the hair growth and hair loss patterns in humans are explained by the layout of the lymphatic system, and one other important factor. This is the evolved complexity of the blood `plumbing' system that evolved to service the human brain.

Consider this diagram of the lymphatics of the head.

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/Stephenfoote/ ... hatics.bmp

You can see from this that the lymphatics in the male pattern baldness area are sparse, and fluid drained from here has to pass through the lower vessels. Increasing levels of DHT are increasing the pumping of the greater concentration of lymph vessels lower down to produce beard growth. But because of the one way valves in the vessels, the door is being `slammed' more often to the flow from the male pattern baldness area at the end of the system.

I suggest this is how DHT can create the `opposite' effect of reduced drainage from the male pattern baldness area, it's just the fluid dynamics of the area in humans. The layout of the lymph system in the scalp and face, explains the patterns you describe, along with differences in the individuals blood feed characteristics.

The differences in individual hair loss patterns, and the time taken for their developement, are linked to the local drainage/feed equation in the individual.

We have a high blood pressure `feed' to the scalp. If lymph drainage is reduced here, there is a high possibility of edema and increased tissue fluid pressures. This is where i think the difference lies in individuals for the `same' level of DHT. If an individual has a relatively low blood `feed', edema may not develope. But if the blood `feed' is higher, edema will more easily develope.

I think this is why there is a link with male pattern baldness and heart trouble in later life, it's the higher blood pressure!

I also think this is why reducing the blood feed to the scalp, shows improvements in the follicles.

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/artery_ligature.htm

The trouble with this notion that DHT `directly' acts within follicle cells via androgen receptors, is that the in-vitro tests disprove this! Direct exposure to androgens does not change anything about the way they grew in-vivo. The `CHANGE' must then be due to some `indirect' action of androgens in-vivo. This is my suggestion for the mechanism involved.

S Foote.
 

Bryan

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WiseJoeyD said:
Is there any theory why, for some, inhibiting DHt isn't enough?

Actually this is something I've always wondered about and thought maybe the fact DHT is 'merely' a stronger version of testosterone should clue people that whilst DHT might be removed (well either 40% or 90%), it's friendly neighbourhood hormone is there to still, probably slowly, fill those receptors!!

....or not?!

I think that's a pretty reasonable theory. In some people, the remaining androgens are still an instigating source for the balding process.

Bryan
 

abcdefg

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This might be out of place and off topic a little but is a mature hairline the result of androgens? Is it possible to not lose a single hair throughout a mans life if he removed all androgens or do other factors still have an effect?
 

CCS

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squeegee said:
Bump ! I missed that thread.. THis is really interesting! God! http://www.hairsite2.com/library/abst-167.htm


That thread is out dated. The reason hairs die after a scalp reduction is a scalp reduction is a horrible procedure. Of course hairs won't survive.

The reason why donuting occurs is the center of those big grafts does not get enough blood, and dies. Modern grafts are 1-2 hairs, and the hairs do not die.

I have grafts on my head in places that used to be balding. They are still growing strong there, and are starting to look a little out of place as the scalp behind them thins a bit. But I'm back on finasteride and now applying minoxidil up there too.
 

squeegee

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This thread is maybe out dated but not the theory behind it.. Stephen Foot is a wise man!
 

Bryan

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abcdefg said:
This might be out of place and off topic a little but is a mature hairline the result of androgens? Is it possible to not lose a single hair throughout a mans life if he removed all androgens or do other factors still have an effect?

Hmmm...my understanding (and I hope I'm remembering this correctly) is that in general, the pseudohermaphrodites don't even have that bit of "mature hairline" recession, which implies that it is caused by androgenic stimulation. The same is probably also true of men who are castrated before puberty.
 

Bryan

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squeegee said:
Stephen Foot is a wise man!

Not everybody agrees with you on that! :)
 

squeegee

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Bryan said:
squeegee said:
Stephen Foot is a wise man!

Not everybody agrees with you on that! :)


LOL !Bryan, where is Stephen BTW? Still posting somewhere?
 

armandein

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Bryan said:
abcdefg said:
This might be out of place and off topic a little but is a mature hairline the result of androgens? Is it possible to not lose a single hair throughout a mans life if he removed all androgens or do other factors still have an effect?

Hmmm...my understanding (and I hope I'm remembering this correctly) is that in general, the pseudohermaphrodites don't even have that bit of "mature hairline" recession, which implies that it is caused by androgenic stimulation. The same is probably also true of men who are castrated before puberty.


http://mx.sports.yahoo.com/china2008/vi ... id=9246947

In this video about the unique Eunuch musseum in the world (China. Beijin)(time -0,17) apears a photo with eunuchs, some of them have problems with hair, even bald.
:whistle:
 

Bryan

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armandein said:
http://mx.sports.yahoo.com/china2008/videos/video.html?id=9246947

In this video about the unique Eunuch musseum in the world (China. Beijin)(time -0,17) apears a photo with eunuchs, some of them have problems with hair, even bald.
:whistle:

Yes, and I'm sure that those cases have more to do with other medical issues than just androgenetic alopecia. Things like malnutrition and possibly even cancer treatment, for example.
 

armandein

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Malnutrition with eunuchs in China in these years? :) Please get another excuse,..., most of them were rich.... did you see the video?

Can ask you why are you SURE? where are your proof?
 

squeegee

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Bryan said:
armandein said:
http://mx.sports.yahoo.com/china2008/videos/video.html?id=9246947

In this video about the unique Eunuch musseum in the world (China. Beijin)(time -0,17) apears a photo with eunuchs, some of them have problems with hair, even bald.
:whistle:

Yes, and I'm sure that those cases have more to do with other medical issues than just androgenetic alopecia. Things like malnutrition and possibly even cancer treatment, for example.


malnutrition, cancer treatment? The androgen theory is getting old Bryan. It probably contributes to hairloss but it is not the main factor. Yes there is EDEMA on top..

Edema is swelling resulting from the building up of excessive fluids in the tissue. The skin in the affected area will become stretched and appear shiny. Stephen is bang on.
 

abcdefg

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I am curious to see if a teenager that is like 18 with a really bad male pattern baldness history and is destined to be a Norwood 7 at an early age took a total androgen inhibitor not just DHT would they keep every hair on there head and for how long? Maybe androgens are the complete problem if you want to prevent hair loss but forms of androgen other then DHT also are the problem.
 
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