Diffuse unpatterned alopecia or DUPA,is it DHT driven?

[Mandar kumthekar]

I have DUPA ,my donor area is scarce on sides and somewhat better but not ideal at the back.in most men the donor area is spared by DHT .but in DUPA men loose hairs in donor area too.that is frustrating because it would make you out of any medical or surgical treatment.
I don't found any article on DUPA .a doctor known as rassman believe DUPA is not DHT driven but a different process. Could you please tell me if it is DHT driven and give some links about it.what's your opinion?

 

[camille leprevost]

Hello my friend, i am french so i apologise in advance for my english.

I do have the same pattern as you, 28 years old , thinning and overall shedding back, side, and top and my hairline is quite not touched actually. I think it is DUPA and it is similar to female pattern hair loss actually.

Some studies showed that high prolactin level can cause hair on side and back to become sensitive to androgen as well. So might be something to dig in. Also annecdotally, it seems that DUPA sufferer are sensitive to DHT but also to Free testosterone in scalp. Apparently DHT seem to cause localised thinning where testosterone cause diffuse thinning.

If you have been to a dermatologist, i hope she gave you a full bloodwork to do because besides that they are useless,

You need to check for :
-nutritionnal defficiency
-metabolism glucidic ((Glucose, insuline sensitivity,)
- full hormonal check : cortisol, LH ,FSH ,Prolactine, E2,17OH progesterone, progesterone, SHBG, testosterone total, free T, androstanediol G6470, delta 4 androstenedione, DHEA-S, DHT ....
- inflamatory syndrom ...

I am going to do a full blood check this friday, so i will send you the result here in 2 weeks if you want. If you have done a full blood work too, it will be great to compare it to check for similitude.

To tell you a bit about myself i started to lose hair all over since 3 years now.
I only started 7 month ago to take 1 mg finasteride daily, but it has thin my hair considerably because of the boost of scalp tesoterone it caused i think. I tried to add different antiandrogen topically such as ru58841 to tackle the rise in T (had to stop due to chest pain , shortness of breath), i used now topical cb0301 30mg/day but it is not enough powerful so it doesn't do sh*t. I am going to try topical bicalutamide now soon as it is a stronger AA and i think we have to fight testoerone as well.
Besides finasteride + cb0301 i don't take any supplement and it didn't stop my shedding at all.

I am curious to know about how much you lose hair per day, what regimen are you on, it seems you use minoxidil, dit it worked on you ? and how you manage to apply it all over your head ?

Also can you share if anything in your regimen has improved your situation so far or make it worse. Would be great to share info

You can send me a message privately as well.

Looking forward helping each other to solve that sh*t.

Best regard

 

[Mandar kumthekar]

Hi camelle,I use minoxidil once a day,I do regular scalp massages plus use castor oil .I take antidepressants which makes prolactine rise ,thanks for that insight. Could u post link of prolactines role in androgen hair sensitivitiy?

 

[jan_miezda]

Hi camelle,I use minoxidil once a day,I do regular scalp massages plus use castor oil .I take antidepressants which makes prolactine rise ,thanks for that insight. Could u post link of prolactines role in androgen hair sensitivitiy?

DUPA is female pattern baldness in male. its different gene from same chromosome. its more rare (in male ) because its recessive trait from x chromosome. Regular male pattern baldness is dominant trait from X chromosome. so to have DUPA your dad must have Yx and mom xx or Xx

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi camelle,I use minoxidil once a day,I do regular scalp massages plus use castor oil .I take antidepressants which makes prolactine rise ,thanks for that insight. Could u post link of prolactines role in androgen hair sensitivitiy?

had you DUPA before using minoxidil?

 

[camille leprevost]

DUPA is female pattern baldness in male. its different gene from same chromosome. its more rare (in male ) because its recessive trait from x chromosome. Regular male pattern baldness is dominant trait from X chromosome

Hey bro what you said is very interesting, as in fact i have this hairloss from my mother. My father has all is hair and my brother too as he inherited everything from my father. Me i am a copy paste of my mother. Do you have more info about how to cure it ? Should i focus on stuff that girl do with PCOS or female pattern baldness ?

To say more about me :

Actually it started 3 years ago after a nutritionnal defficiency, i was eating like sh*t, i had tellogen effluvium at the beginning heavy loss in 2 weeks i think but then it never stopped. I am shedding hair all over since then plus miniaturisation (side, back and top).

My shedding and thinning increased with finasteride when i start about 8 month ago but i keep using it just in case. My shedding never stopped and the rate is way faster than classing male pattern baldness. But what it's weird believe me or not my hair texture is changing very fast. For exemple the only things that seem to improve things a bit is eating flaxseed 30mg/day to boost my estrogen and reduce my testosterone/free testosterone and drink 4 cup of spearmint tea a day to reduce free testosterone. When i reduce my testosterone my hair improve in a matter of days, as weird as it is, the thickness increase, they become heavier when i touch them and my libido go down. Everytime my libido go up , my hair texture start to degrade and it is visually perceptible in the mirror. I am a scientific guy so i am not telling you bullshit. I have never been diagnosed officially with DUPA as no hair loss Doctor or dermato know it even exist. But all my symptoms are a clear green light for it, and my symptoms align with every post of dude that claim to have DUPA. Even the fact that finasteride don't do sh*t for me and even make things worst as it boosted my free T an T by about 25%.
I think guys with DUPA are even more sensitive to free testosterone than to DHT as we are diffuse thinner,
In my case there is no part heavily touched on my head , my hairline is quite untouched, but it is gradual loss of density an thining of my hair everywhere. I am heavily conviced that it is still androgen related /free testosterone for the main part, as everytime i shut down my androgen load, shedding reduce and hair improve. I think guys like me need to focus to apply a powerfull antiandrogen topically.

I will send my bloodwork in 2 weeks when i received it.

Happy to hear if anybody have discover some things to help this situation.

Best regards

 

[Mandar kumthekar]

had you DUPA before using minoxidil?

Yes have been dupa from 25.now 37 .had it before any treatment.

 

[Will Be an Egg in 5 years]

Isn't all Dupa just Diffuse unpatterned alopecia AREATA?

Did anyone try treating diffuse thinning ir DUPA as If It was AA? Would be interesting to see the results.

 

[Selb]

Isn't all Dupa just Diffuse unpatterned alopecia AREATA?

Did anyone try treating diffuse thinning ir DUPA as If It was AA? Would be interesting to see the results.

Would be interesting if they did a scalp biopsy to confirm this too. Treating it with oral steroids, or immunosuppressants with oral minoxidil

 

[Selb]

Yes have been dupa from 25.now 37 .had it before any treatment.

Have you had a scalp biopsy done? And do you mind posting pics?

 

[Mandar kumthekar]

Have you had a scalp biopsy done? And do you mind posting pics?

No,I had not have biopsy done.

 

[camille leprevost]

Hi camelle,I use minoxidil once a day,I do regular scalp massages plus use castor oil .I take antidepressants which makes prolactine rise ,thanks for that insight. Could u post link of prolactines role in androgen hair sensitivitiy?

(PDF) Hair loss and hyperprolactinemia in women (researchgate.net)

 

[camille leprevost]

Hello, just to recap, I am a man and have DUPA hair loss (or female pattern hair loss), diffuse hair loss and thinning (back, sides and top) which started 3 years ago after an episode in my life where my alimentation was very bad and had nutrient deficiency for sure. After fixing my alimentation properly my hair are still shedding and thinning all over.

Since 8 month i only take 1mg finasteride / day (no reduction on my hair loss), cb0301 30mg topicaly with no reduction on my hair loss, Biotin (10mg/day), spearmint tea (4 cup/day to reduce free testosterone), Flaxseed (30 g/day to reduce testosterone)

Here is a complete blood test that I have done 3 weeks ago. It would be great if some of you may highlight some issue in it and maybe propose corrective action as he might help others with similar hair loss.

From my perspective, I think I have low zinc, low vitamin d, high prolactin level, high cortisol level and maybe iron deficiency as we can have it according to study even with normal level of blood iron.

BLOOD TEST of the 04.12.2020

Vitamin B12 : 812 ng/l (197-771)
Vitamin A : 0.5 mg/l (0.1-1)

IONIC BALANCE

Sodium : 139 mmol/l (136-145)
Potassium : 4 mmol/l (3.5-4.5)

PROTEIN

Albumin : 47 g/l (40-49)

RENAL FUNCTION

Urea : 46 mg/dl (17-48)
Creatinine : 0.94 mg/dl ( 0.7-1.2)
DFG (CKD-EPI) >90 mL/min/1.73m^2

LIVER/PANCREAS

AST(GOT) : 16 UI/L (<40)
ALT(GPT) : 10 UI/L (<41)
alkaline phosphatase : 55 UI/L (40-129)
Gamma GT : 10 UI/L (10-71)
LDH : 178 UI/L (135-225)
Biribulin total : 0.8 mg/dl (<1.2)
Biribulin conjugated : 0.3 mg/dl (<0.2)

CARDIOVASCULAR RISK FACTOR

Triglyceride : 68 mg/dl (<150)

CARBOHYDRATE METABOLISM

Fasting glucose level : 96 mg/dl (70-100)
Insulin : 39.7 mg/dl (17.8-173)
Index HOMA1-IR : 1.4 pmol/l (<2.4)

TYROID

TSH : 1.35 mu/l (0.27-4.20)
T4 libre : 17.8 pmol/l (12-22)

ADRENAL GLAND

Cortisol (morning test) : 480 nmol/l (166-507)

CALCIUMPHOSPHATE METABOLISM

Bioactive PTH (3nd gen) 25.5 ng/l < 49
25 OH vitamin D : 14.8 μg/l (30-80)

ENDOCRINOLOGY

Total prolactin : 18.2 μg/l (4-15.2)
Bioactive prolactin : 14.9 μg/l (3-11.6)
LH : 5.8 UI/L (1.7-8.6)
FSH : 1.9 UI/L (1.5-12.4)
Oestradiol : 30 ng/l (25-52)
Progesterone : 0.24 μg/l < (0.15
17OH-Progesterone : 3 ng/ml (0.9-3.4)
total Testosterone : 20.80 nmol/l (8.64-29)
Testosterone free: 509.1 pmol/l (260-740)
Androstanediol glucoronide 2.8 nmol/l (4-75)
Delta 4 androstenedione : 1.4 ng/ml (0.1-3)
DHEA-S : 4.72 μmol/l (4.34 – 12.20)
SHBG : 24 nmol/l (18.3-54.1)
DHT : I don’t have the result yet

TOXICOLOGY

Zinc : 72 μg/dl (80-120)

BLOOD

Haemoglobin : 16.6 g/dl (13-18)
Red blood cell : 5.40 10^6/μl (4.40-5.90)
Hematocrit : 45.5% (40-53)
mean corpuscular volume : 84 fL (80-100)
mean corpuscular HB : 30.6 pg (26-34)
mean corpuscular haemoglobin concentration : 36.5 g/dl (31-35)
anisocytose indice : 12% (11.5-13.4)
platelet : 208 10^3/ μl (150- 440)
mean platelet volume : 10.1 fL (8.9-12.9)
white blood cell : 7.16 10^3/ μl (3.5-11)
neutrophiles : 62.1% (40-75)
neutrophiles (absolute): 4.44 10^3/ μl (1.5-6.7)
Lymphocytes : 25.4% (20-45)
Lymphocytes (absolute) : 1.82 10^3/ μl (1.2 – 3.5)
Monocytes : 10.6 % (2-10)
Monocytes (absolute) : 0.76 10^3/ μl (0.2 - 1)
Eosinophiles : 1.5% (2-10)
Eosinophiles (absolute) : 0.11 10^3/ μl (<0.4)
Basophiles : 0.4% (0-1)
Basophiles (absolute) : 0.03 10^3/ μl (<0.1)

INFLAMMATORY SYNDROM

Crp : <0.5 mg/dl (<5)

ANEMIA

Iron : 134 μg /dl (65-175)
Transferrin : 216 mg/dl (215 – 365)
Transferrin saturation : 44% (16-44)
Ferritin : 120 μg/l (30-300)
Folic acid : 4.8 μg/l (>4.6)
Folic acid erytrocytaire : 754 μg/l GR (523-1257)

 

[Mandar kumthekar]

It is normal values .no deficiency or abnormalities.
I think it is DHT causing dupa not ailment.

 

[jan_miezda]

It is normal values .no deficiency or abnormalities.
I think it is DHT causing dupa not ailment.

DHT don’t cause DUPA. You will never see DUPA hairloss sufferer with complete bald head (unless he have DUPA and male pattern baldness).
In DUPA you have one or two hair cycles and your hairs are gone (no miniaturization process can occur that fast, like traditional androgenic alopecia). Only a fool will believe androgen can cause complete minturization and death of hair in that time. This process takes years and varies (but it’s long process)

in DUPA sufferer scalp biopsy shows non scarred dormant hair follicle

 

[jan_miezda]

Hello, just to recap, I am a man and have DUPA hair loss (or female pattern hair loss), diffuse hair loss and thinning (back, sides and top) which started 3 years ago after an episode in my life where my alimentation was very bad and had nutrient deficiency for sure. After fixing my alimentation properly my hair are still shedding and thinning all over.

Since 8 month i only take 1mg finasteride / day (no reduction on my hair loss), cb0301 30mg topicaly with no reduction on my hair loss, Biotin (10mg/day), spearmint tea (4 cup/day to reduce free testosterone), Flaxseed (30 g/day to reduce testosterone)

Here is a complete blood test that I have done 3 weeks ago. It would be great if some of you may highlight some issue in it and maybe propose corrective action as he might help others with similar hair loss.

From my perspective, I think I have low zinc, low vitamin d, high prolactin level, high cortisol level and maybe iron deficiency as we can have it according to study even with normal level of blood iron.

BLOOD TEST of the 04.12.2020

Vitamin B12 : 812 ng/l (197-771)
Vitamin A : 0.5 mg/l (0.1-1)

IONIC BALANCE

Sodium : 139 mmol/l (136-145)
Potassium : 4 mmol/l (3.5-4.5)

PROTEIN

Albumin : 47 g/l (40-49)

RENAL FUNCTION

Urea : 46 mg/dl (17-48)
Creatinine : 0.94 mg/dl ( 0.7-1.2)
DFG (CKD-EPI) >90 mL/min/1.73m^2

LIVER/PANCREAS

AST(GOT) : 16 UI/L (<40)
ALT(GPT) : 10 UI/L (<41)
alkaline phosphatase : 55 UI/L (40-129)
Gamma GT : 10 UI/L (10-71)
LDH : 178 UI/L (135-225)
Biribulin total : 0.8 mg/dl (<1.2)
Biribulin conjugated : 0.3 mg/dl (<0.2)

CARDIOVASCULAR RISK FACTOR

Triglyceride : 68 mg/dl (<150)

CARBOHYDRATE METABOLISM

Fasting glucose level : 96 mg/dl (70-100)
Insulin : 39.7 mg/dl (17.8-173)
Index HOMA1-IR : 1.4 pmol/l (<2.4)

TYROID

TSH : 1.35 mu/l (0.27-4.20)
T4 libre : 17.8 pmol/l (12-22)

ADRENAL GLAND

Cortisol (morning test) : 480 nmol/l (166-507)

CALCIUMPHOSPHATE METABOLISM

Bioactive PTH (3nd gen) 25.5 ng/l < 49
25 OH vitamin D : 14.8 μg/l (30-80)

ENDOCRINOLOGY

Total prolactin : 18.2 μg/l (4-15.2)
Bioactive prolactin : 14.9 μg/l (3-11.6)
LH : 5.8 UI/L (1.7-8.6)
FSH : 1.9 UI/L (1.5-12.4)
Oestradiol : 30 ng/l (25-52)
Progesterone : 0.24 μg/l < (0.15
17OH-Progesterone : 3 ng/ml (0.9-3.4)
total Testosterone : 20.80 nmol/l (8.64-29)
Testosterone free: 509.1 pmol/l (260-740)
Androstanediol glucoronide 2.8 nmol/l (4-75)
Delta 4 androstenedione : 1.4 ng/ml (0.1-3)
DHEA-S : 4.72 μmol/l (4.34 – 12.20)
SHBG : 24 nmol/l (18.3-54.1)
DHT : I don’t have the result yet

TOXICOLOGY

Zinc : 72 μg/dl (80-120)

BLOOD

Haemoglobin : 16.6 g/dl (13-18)
Red blood cell : 5.40 10^6/μl (4.40-5.90)
Hematocrit : 45.5% (40-53)
mean corpuscular volume : 84 fL (80-100)
mean corpuscular HB : 30.6 pg (26-34)
mean corpuscular haemoglobin concentration : 36.5 g/dl (31-35)
anisocytose indice : 12% (11.5-13.4)
platelet : 208 10^3/ μl (150- 440)
mean platelet volume : 10.1 fL (8.9-12.9)
white blood cell : 7.16 10^3/ μl (3.5-11)
neutrophiles : 62.1% (40-75)
neutrophiles (absolute): 4.44 10^3/ μl (1.5-6.7)
Lymphocytes : 25.4% (20-45)
Lymphocytes (absolute) : 1.82 10^3/ μl (1.2 – 3.5)
Monocytes : 10.6 % (2-10)
Monocytes (absolute) : 0.76 10^3/ μl (0.2 - 1)
Eosinophiles : 1.5% (2-10)
Eosinophiles (absolute) : 0.11 10^3/ μl (<0.4)
Basophiles : 0.4% (0-1)
Basophiles (absolute) : 0.03 10^3/ μl (<0.1)

INFLAMMATORY SYNDROM

Crp : <0.5 mg/dl (<5)

ANEMIA

Iron : 134 μg /dl (65-175)
Transferrin : 216 mg/dl (215 – 365)
Transferrin saturation : 44% (16-44)
Ferritin : 120 μg/l (30-300)
Folic acid : 4.8 μg/l (>4.6)
Folic acid erytrocytaire : 754 μg/l GR (523-1257)

Look at your cortisol level then read this:

Glucocorticoids Influencing Wnt/β-Catenin Pathway; Multiple Sites, Heterogeneous Effects

Glucocorticoid hormones are vital; their accurate operation is a necessity at all ages and in all life situations. Glucocorticoids regulate diverse physiological processes and they use many signaling pathways to fulfill their effect. As the operation ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Glucocorticoid (GC) excess leads to the accumulation of Wnt-inhibitors”

This is one important pathway in growth and proliferation of many tissue types like nail and other skin derivatives.

 

[camille leprevost]

DHT don’t cause DUPA. You will never see DUPA hairloss sufferer with complete bald head (unless he have DUPA and male pattern baldness).
In DUPA you have one or two hair cycles and your hairs are gone (no miniaturization process can occur that fast, like traditional androgenic alopecia). Only a fool will believe androgen can cause complete minturization and death of hair in that time. This process takes years and varies (but it’s long process)

in DUPA sufferer scalp biopsy shows non scarred dormant hair follicle

hello, you seem to have some knowledge on DUPA hair loss. Indeed finasteride did nothing for me besides agravating my thinning and shedding all over. So i agree with you i don't think that for a pure DUPA guy (with no male pattern baldness) inhibiting DHT does absolutely nothing. So i don't think DHT is highly a factor for us, but taking finasteride made my hairloss way worse than baseline (before i took only topical rene furterer triphasic wich is essential oil, and nothing else, my hair were shedding in the shower all over, but not that much during the day and they were quite the same dimmension, since taking finasteride my shedding increased all day, when i wake up i have lots of hair on my pillow, my back and sides got decimated, and the texture of my hair changed, i can see lots of long hair but very thin like spider web stuff with ok hair everywhere on my head. So i am wondering if instead of DHT, testosterone might be the main factor for us ?

I am wondering if thinning of the hair can only be caused with androgen or cortisol or other stuff may thin the hair too, that' is the great question for me.

Moroever, my hair can improve or degrade very fast, i can only talk about the texture, so according to you such a fast change cannot be attribuable to androgen load (testosterone or DHT )?

According to you cortisol level is the main cause of it ? indeed i think i have high cortisol and prolactin since the beginning of my hair loss 3 years ago.

Can you higlight the main issue with my blood test that i should solve ?
And what should i do to reduce my cortisol and prolactin level ?

Thank you very much for your help again, it is great to see some help on DUPA case as there is so few info.

Best regard

 

[DarkHairHair]

DHT don’t cause DUPA. You will never see DUPA hairloss sufferer with complete bald head (unless he have DUPA and male pattern baldness).
In DUPA you have one or two hair cycles and your hairs are gone (no miniaturization process can occur that fast, like traditional androgenic alopecia). Only a fool will believe androgen can cause complete minturization and death of hair in that time. This process takes years and varies (but it’s long process)

in DUPA sufferer scalp biopsy shows non scarred dormant hair follicle

Hi man i have DUPA too. What do you lean by "non scarred dormant hair follicle" ? What is difference between DUPA and others alopecia ?

Do you have DUPA ?

 

[bluecyclone]

Curious about your testosterone thought. Propecia made my case worse. Hairline that was perfect began to thin. Added RU but nothing. I think I have DUPA, Telogen Effluvium, and male pattern baldness. Hair has dramatically changed in quality in just 3 years.

 

[camille leprevost]

Hi man i have DUPA too. What do you lean by "non scarred dormant hair follicle" ? What is difference between DUPA and others alopecia ?

Do you have DUPA ?

well i can tell you that DUPA is shedding and thinning of the hair all over your head in a diffuse equilibrated pattern at least in my case, you lose hair on the side, back and the top. and your hair line is quite untouched i mean the line doesn't not recede that much even if it can be less dense.
But DUPA differentiate itself from other alopecia with the thinning and shedding on the safe area (back, and sides)
It is similar to female pattern hair loss but in male.

That said for every guy who have dupa can you just tell in one message what did you tried already and what do you think have worked or not. If you could add a blood test just like me it would be great to create more data on it.


Best regards