antonio666
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Do you think it is possible to transplant into a norwood 1 with diffuse thinning without damaging existing hair and has any body ever seen a patient who has had this done
diffuse transplant
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i think it's possible but a lot of doctors are hesitant for fear of shock loss.
i'm the same situation- Norwood 1.5 about with diffusion behind the hairline.
i'm the same situation- Norwood 1.5 about with diffusion behind the hairline.
diffuse transplants cause all the surrounding hair to fall of because of shock..there is no guarantee that it may return..its a huge risk..some doctors try to transpant more number of grafts than actually needed to compensate for the loss..all in all many doctors wont agree in the first place..some say to take propecia to minimize risk of shock..even i am a diffuse thinner and i can say diffuse thinning really sucks..my hairline and area behind it looks worst..i am on propecia for 8 months and its working near crown area..but not near the front..atleast if i can have densly packed grafts transplanted in the front near the hairline..it will ku good..
Did anyone else here undergo a diffuse transpant..if so did u have any shock loss?
Did anyone else here undergo a diffuse transpant..if so did u have any shock loss?
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I know of no diffused thinner that did not experience shockloss. The more existing hair there is, the more there is to shock out. hair transplants can advanced the loss in a diffused patient. Try using topicals like Toppik as long as you can and hang with the meds.
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gillenator said:
should most of the shock loss grow back
waynakyo
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What what what ?
are you saying people with diffuse thinning should not do hair transplant ?
I don t know but I get the feeling that I saw hunderds of cases of guys going hair transplant because they have thinning hair on the top and all teh doctor did is to thicken it.
I mean - isn t the same thing of saying : young guys should not have hair transplant cause they are not completley bald yet ? But again lots of good doctors are doing this
I ll look up some links and post them
are you saying people with diffuse thinning should not do hair transplant ?
I don t know but I get the feeling that I saw hunderds of cases of guys going hair transplant because they have thinning hair on the top and all teh doctor did is to thicken it.
I mean - isn t the same thing of saying : young guys should not have hair transplant cause they are not completley bald yet ? But again lots of good doctors are doing this
I ll look up some links and post them
waynakyo
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Is this a case of diffuse thinning ? I might not be sure what do you mean by DT, but when I looked at Armani's it was full of people who had thinning hair on the top and it seems he did help in making the area more dense. Cause what I understood from what you guys said above is that hair transplant is for BALD AREAS period.
PS: THIS IS NOT ME, this is a pic from internet.
PS: THIS IS NOT ME, this is a pic from internet.
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yeah thats a guy from HairLossTalk.com. he has diffuse thinning.
antonio666
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I personally think it is a big risk to get a transplant when you are a diffuse thinner but i think in the futere i would take the risk because alvi armani patients all seem to be diffuse thinners so it defintley is possible ,you probably will suffer from shock loss but the question is will it grow back,nobody is god,not even alviarmani
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Guys,
I wish all of this was a perfect science, but we all know it is not.
It's not that I am saying that diffused thinners should never get hair transplants or that one needs to be completely bald before getting one. What I am clearly saying is that there are more risks presented to the diffused patient than to one who is for the most part receding. Let me explain.
Anyone, and I mean anyone with male pattern baldness has some degree of diffusion going on. Diffusion, in my definition, is where male pattern baldness attacks hair shaft diameter through a process called miniturization. But there are variables like anything else.
Let's use the example you supplied. This type of diffusion pattern is ultimately reducing density throughout the top of his scalp yet he still appears to have faily good hair caliber. Hairs that still have a fair amount of caliber left will tend to grow back because it is not as weak or miniturized as the other from of diffusion.
The other typical form of diffusion is where the patient is not losing hair count as much as he is losing hair caliper. We have all seen it before. Think of the pics where the patient has lots of density but we can see through to the scalp because hair shaft diameter has become so thin that much more light is getting in and reflecting off the scalp. This is especially true with patients who have wide contrasts. Patients with this diffused pattern are definitely at "higher risk" because the thin caliber hair is extremely sensitive to trauma and almost always shocks out permanently. Why? When hair shaft diameter becomes that thin from the ill effects of DHT, the underlying follicles supporting that thin hair are extremely miniturized. They hardly have much life left in them. Everytime those tiny hair follicles cycle through, the hair shaft comes back thinner and weaker. Trauma from the surgery can shut those follicles down, what's left of them, before their genetic timeclock.
If you have the same type of diffusion pattern as the one in the pic you provided, the potential of the exisitng hair in the recipient area coming back is higher and generally considered safer to graft in than the second example I just gave. So yes I think some talented surgeons can add new hair successfully in those situations.
But remember two things. First, one can still never accurately predict shockloss. Even in the first type of diffusion pattern, I have still seen enough patients experience permanent shockloss because you really cannot predict how one will respond to the overall trauma from surgery. And two, do you really think any clinic would put up any patient pics where they did have dramatic shockloss? Speaking in general terms, all clinics only put up their best pics and results. We all know that.
But whether you have either type of diffused pattern, my encouragement to you is to hold onto your natural hair as long as you can.
I wish all of this was a perfect science, but we all know it is not.
It's not that I am saying that diffused thinners should never get hair transplants or that one needs to be completely bald before getting one. What I am clearly saying is that there are more risks presented to the diffused patient than to one who is for the most part receding. Let me explain.
Anyone, and I mean anyone with male pattern baldness has some degree of diffusion going on. Diffusion, in my definition, is where male pattern baldness attacks hair shaft diameter through a process called miniturization. But there are variables like anything else.
Let's use the example you supplied. This type of diffusion pattern is ultimately reducing density throughout the top of his scalp yet he still appears to have faily good hair caliber. Hairs that still have a fair amount of caliber left will tend to grow back because it is not as weak or miniturized as the other from of diffusion.
The other typical form of diffusion is where the patient is not losing hair count as much as he is losing hair caliper. We have all seen it before. Think of the pics where the patient has lots of density but we can see through to the scalp because hair shaft diameter has become so thin that much more light is getting in and reflecting off the scalp. This is especially true with patients who have wide contrasts. Patients with this diffused pattern are definitely at "higher risk" because the thin caliber hair is extremely sensitive to trauma and almost always shocks out permanently. Why? When hair shaft diameter becomes that thin from the ill effects of DHT, the underlying follicles supporting that thin hair are extremely miniturized. They hardly have much life left in them. Everytime those tiny hair follicles cycle through, the hair shaft comes back thinner and weaker. Trauma from the surgery can shut those follicles down, what's left of them, before their genetic timeclock.
If you have the same type of diffusion pattern as the one in the pic you provided, the potential of the exisitng hair in the recipient area coming back is higher and generally considered safer to graft in than the second example I just gave. So yes I think some talented surgeons can add new hair successfully in those situations.
But remember two things. First, one can still never accurately predict shockloss. Even in the first type of diffusion pattern, I have still seen enough patients experience permanent shockloss because you really cannot predict how one will respond to the overall trauma from surgery. And two, do you really think any clinic would put up any patient pics where they did have dramatic shockloss? Speaking in general terms, all clinics only put up their best pics and results. We all know that.
But whether you have either type of diffused pattern, my encouragement to you is to hold onto your natural hair as long as you can.
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gillenator, which kind of diffuse do you think i have?
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2204 ... 005iw6.jpg
i think that i've lost density, just like the guy above. his hair is also not spiked like mine is. if my hair was done like his, i would look like him only you would barely be able to see any scalp.
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2204 ... 005iw6.jpg
i think that i've lost density, just like the guy above. his hair is also not spiked like mine is. if my hair was done like his, i would look like him only you would barely be able to see any scalp.
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that pic is from last july or august. my hair has improved since then but it's still like that a bit right behind the hairline when i spike itflimflam said:
waynakyo
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Thanks for you informative response. I appreciate it.
Yes I agree with you [ I mean it makes sense] , although I do not have much experience.
The reason I was surprised is that
1) I Thought MOST of the balding guys are sort of diffuse thinner, it is just a matter of degree as you said.
2) I saw many successful transplants on sort-of diffuse thinner.
As for me, my situation is 5 times better than the one in the pic. I am not sure If I will be a diffuse thinner, all I know, is yes I am loosing density from the top, my hair IS thinning, but the only place you can see the scalp from is my vertex and THAT I d like it covered ASAP.
Yes I agree with you [ I mean it makes sense] , although I do not have much experience.
The reason I was surprised is that
1) I Thought MOST of the balding guys are sort of diffuse thinner, it is just a matter of degree as you said.
2) I saw many successful transplants on sort-of diffuse thinner.
As for me, my situation is 5 times better than the one in the pic. I am not sure If I will be a diffuse thinner, all I know, is yes I am loosing density from the top, my hair IS thinning, but the only place you can see the scalp from is my vertex and THAT I d like it covered ASAP.
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jayman,
You definitely have type 2 diffision that I see. Your hair caliber is still good on the top but have generalized thinning throughout. So IMO, permanent shockloss is less likely because alot of what you have up there right now will grow back in.
You definitely have type 2 diffision that I see. Your hair caliber is still good on the top but have generalized thinning throughout. So IMO, permanent shockloss is less likely because alot of what you have up there right now will grow back in.
G
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waynakyo,
Got any pics? If you have thinning throughout the top, you have diffused thinning going on.
Got any pics? If you have thinning throughout the top, you have diffused thinning going on.
G
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gillenator said:
so you're saying i'm transplantable then in the future?
this is probably a stupid question and my hair has changed since then, but for that pic, how many grafts would you estimate it would take to fill that area in with respectable density? armani estimated around 3000 would bring me back to rock solid density there. what do you think of that estimate? he saw the exact same picture.
and just to clarify, are you saying that i've lost density in some areas of the scalp but the areas that i still have hair are very thick hairs?
and finally, what do you think the chances are that minoxidil can regrow some of the hair i used to have in the thinning area if it's been lost within the past 3 years?
thanks
p.s.- the avodart that i'm on should help reduce any shockloss, right?
G
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Jayman,
I think a tendency for any of us is too attempt to predict too precisely. So although I believe that "permanent shock" would not occur in the zone you are referring to, still it could happen because we cannot predict it with absolute certainty.
Remember, I am looking at just one pic of you which does not do me much justice. If it was possible to make physical observations of your scalp, I could employ the use of telescopic equipment to see the degree and extent of miniturization that has taken place, and exactly where it is impeding your scalp. The caliber comparisons would be made to your exisiting terminal hair in the permanent zones. That will give you an idea on the degree of lost hair caliber.
If it were me, I would not do 3,000 grafts in an area with so much natural hair left. Fewer incisions equate to lower degree of scalp trauma. You might want to consider backing that number down, possibly do FUE in the area IF your loss is stabilizing, and IF the extent of hairloss in your family history is not in the major classes.
If you feel you are losing more in that area, wait on surgery. If you remember in another thread awhile back, I mentioned to you that I would not be doing a hair transplant at your stage, but that's me, not you.
I highly doubt that minoxidil will bring back any hair that you have already lost in that area, but you'll never know until you try it. My own overall clinical observations of minoixidil is that it improves hair shaft diameter, not density. It can also potentially help reduce the level of shock if you are applying it in the recipient area, but you'll have to stop it momentarily before any procedure. Yes, dutasteride and finasteride can help to reduce the level of shock too. Just remember that it's no guarantee.
I think a tendency for any of us is too attempt to predict too precisely. So although I believe that "permanent shock" would not occur in the zone you are referring to, still it could happen because we cannot predict it with absolute certainty.
Remember, I am looking at just one pic of you which does not do me much justice. If it was possible to make physical observations of your scalp, I could employ the use of telescopic equipment to see the degree and extent of miniturization that has taken place, and exactly where it is impeding your scalp. The caliber comparisons would be made to your exisiting terminal hair in the permanent zones. That will give you an idea on the degree of lost hair caliber.
If it were me, I would not do 3,000 grafts in an area with so much natural hair left. Fewer incisions equate to lower degree of scalp trauma. You might want to consider backing that number down, possibly do FUE in the area IF your loss is stabilizing, and IF the extent of hairloss in your family history is not in the major classes.
If you feel you are losing more in that area, wait on surgery. If you remember in another thread awhile back, I mentioned to you that I would not be doing a hair transplant at your stage, but that's me, not you.
I highly doubt that minoxidil will bring back any hair that you have already lost in that area, but you'll never know until you try it. My own overall clinical observations of minoixidil is that it improves hair shaft diameter, not density. It can also potentially help reduce the level of shock if you are applying it in the recipient area, but you'll have to stop it momentarily before any procedure. Yes, dutasteride and finasteride can help to reduce the level of shock too. Just remember that it's no guarantee.
G
Guest
Guest
Gillenator,
Thanks. I am definitely not losing any more hair and have regrown some with the dutasteride as well. I do not think that I will be getting any worse for a long time because I am on it.
I would not be getting it for a few years anyway, like at least 3.
Thanks. I am definitely not losing any more hair and have regrown some with the dutasteride as well. I do not think that I will be getting any worse for a long time because I am on it.
I would not be getting it for a few years anyway, like at least 3.
G
Guest
Guest
You're welcome Jayman. Can I share something with you that would be crritical for you or really anyone with male pattern baldness to know going forward into the future?
One of the things I encourage patients with male pattern baldness to track (especially the young men), is the total areas of scalp where miniturization impedes the scalp. And you want to also be aware of the rate of loss with hair shaft diameter. Let me explain.
If at all possible, have someone competent evaluate your entire scalp and then take hair samples from various regions of the top of the scalp, and then compare them to the hair shaft diameter of terminal hair samples from the donor area. The hair strands are then compared under microscopic evaluation, and then photographed and charted. The comparisons are made at six month intervals. All hair samples are saved for purposes of future comparisons.
If you were to start now, you would fulfill 6 clinical evaluations which would tell you: The total surface areas that miniturization is taking place, the other areas that it is beginning to impede. the degree of loss of hair shaft diameter.
So let's say worse case, a patient loses at a higher rate of loss, well then that patient needs to plan very conservatively for future needs, or he may see that he is headed for a class 7 and may change his mind altogethor.
Because you have employed a medicinal regimen that appears to be working very well, you may observe that your rate of miniturization is extremely slow or insignificant over the next three years. It's this latter situation that I wish you to be in three years.
In other words, if you do not note the miniturization process getting any worse, including the areas it "is not" impeding, then you'll feel much better about moving forward with surgery. See what I mean?
One of the things I encourage patients with male pattern baldness to track (especially the young men), is the total areas of scalp where miniturization impedes the scalp. And you want to also be aware of the rate of loss with hair shaft diameter. Let me explain.
If at all possible, have someone competent evaluate your entire scalp and then take hair samples from various regions of the top of the scalp, and then compare them to the hair shaft diameter of terminal hair samples from the donor area. The hair strands are then compared under microscopic evaluation, and then photographed and charted. The comparisons are made at six month intervals. All hair samples are saved for purposes of future comparisons.
If you were to start now, you would fulfill 6 clinical evaluations which would tell you: The total surface areas that miniturization is taking place, the other areas that it is beginning to impede. the degree of loss of hair shaft diameter.
So let's say worse case, a patient loses at a higher rate of loss, well then that patient needs to plan very conservatively for future needs, or he may see that he is headed for a class 7 and may change his mind altogethor.
Because you have employed a medicinal regimen that appears to be working very well, you may observe that your rate of miniturization is extremely slow or insignificant over the next three years. It's this latter situation that I wish you to be in three years.
In other words, if you do not note the miniturization process getting any worse, including the areas it "is not" impeding, then you'll feel much better about moving forward with surgery. See what I mean?