Different types of DHT

[treadstone]

Saw palmetto has some studies which shows it reduces DHT in the prostate, but no evidence I've heard of that it does anything on the scalp.

 

[Bryan]

Ah right, cool. So you say that's how propecia really works and something like saw palmetto, which is often cited as a DHT blocker, doesn't?

I'm always confused when people use a loose popular expression like "DHT blocker", and this is a good example of that. I'm not sure if you mean "5a-reductase inhibitor", or "androgen receptor blocker", or both.

I've seen in vitro studies which claimed that saw palmetto has BOTH of those properties, but I'm really not sure to what extent (if any) that the stuff is effective against male pattern baldness, either orally or topically. There's a dearth of reliable information about that in the medical literature, so I really don't know what to make of it (yes, I've seen some UNreliable information about saw palmetto! ).

But yes, my working assumption is that finasteride and dutasteride work by suppressing the production of DHT within scalp hair follicles.

Does topical spironolactone or revivogen block DHT in the follicle, or do i have to hunt through the internet to find out myself?

I think you could hunt through the Internet until the coes come home, but you STILL won't be able to find a definitive answer to that question! The closest that you'd probably be able to get is that study from a while back which tested the effect of topical spironolactone on the androgen receptors of sebaceous glands (NOT hair follicles), and found that spironolactone did bind to them. It seems like a fairly safe bet that spironolactone _does_ also bind to androgen receptors in hair follicles (I'm assuming here that that's what you mean by "block DHT"); otherwise, it seems topical spironolactone wouldn't have any beneficial effect at all on balding.

 

[treadstone]

Bryan,
What are the major studies you're aware of that show Tricomin (or rather, the specific CP peptides in it) are able to inhibit 5-AR?

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,
What are the major studies you're aware of that show Tricomin (or rather, the specific CP peptides in it) are able to inhibit 5-AR?

There aren't any. To the very best of my knowledge, copper-peptides don't inhibit 5a-reductase. Now ionized copper certainly does, but that's not the same as copper-peptides.

 

[Petchsky]

That is what i meant by DHT blocker, in the follicle itself, you do have to specific with hair loss, definitely not black and white.

Thanks for your replies Bryan, and Treadstone.

 

[Bryan]

That is what i meant by DHT blocker, in the follicle itself, you do have to specific with hair loss, definitely not black and white.

You didn't say whether you're referring to a 5a-reductase inhibitor, or an androgen receptor blocker.

 

[Petchsky]

That's because i don't know the difference.

5a-reductase is something to do with enzymes...or to do with the conversion of testosterone in to DHT..?

 

[Bryan]

5a-reductase is an enzyme that's tightly bound to certain membranes within some cells in the body (in other words, it never ever gets out into the bloodstream...the enzyme exists ONLY within certain cells). Although it does perform a few other chemical conversions, its most notorious and infamous function is to convert testosterone into the more potent androgen DHT, which as we all know, is the one most closely associated with male pattern baldness. There are numerous substances which are capable of binding or interfering with 5a-reductase, thus preventing it from performing its usual job of creating DHT. Such substances are called 5a-reductase inhibitors. Famous examples of such inhibitors would be finasteride and dutasteride. Those two chemicals bind strongly and irreversibly to that troublesome enzyme, saving us a lot of hair in the process!

The way that androgens actually affect the metabolism of cells (causing various mischief like thinning scalp hair, sebum production, prostate enlargement, etc.) is to bind with androgen receptors, which are specialized proteins that float around the cytoplasm of certain cells. Once they bind to form an androgen/androgen-receptor complex, the complex migrates over to the nucleus of the cell, where it binds to structures associated with DNA; the bottom-line result is that it stimulates certain androgen-sensitive genes in the cell (in the specific case of male pattern balding, the results are very bad for us). Another way to fight that androgenic stimulation (besides using a 5a-reductase inhibitor, like I described before) would be to use any of numerous substances which bind to the androgen receptor, keeping androgens away. Famous examples of androgen receptor binders (blockers, in other words) would be flutamide, spironolactone, and RU58841. Androgen receptor blockers are also commonly referred to as antiandrogens.

Some drugs actually perform BOTH functions: they inhibit 5a-reductase, AND they block androgen receptors. Generally speaking, though, the drugs that are most medically useful are the ones that do only one or the other.

That's a basic description of the difference between 5a-reductase inhibitors and androgen receptor blockers.

 

[Petchsky]

Thanks Bryan, that makes it much clearer in my head now. spironolactone then, is probably the next best drug to take after propecia... or a spironolactone combination like Proxiphen or spironolactone + Revivogen.

 

[SoThatsLife]

Bryan, why do you think there is so few happy users of topical spironolactone?

I have been thinking of changing from finasteride to some type of topical anti androgen, but I really just see bad "reviews" of topical spironolactone. Many people have said that a topical anti androgen has a problem to be effective because of absorption, but it seems a little vague as an explanation.

 

[Bryan]

Thanks Bryan, that makes it much clearer in my head now. spironolactone then, is probably the next best drug to take after propecia...

The next-best commonly available drug? Or the next-best drug that's reasonably inexpensive? Hmmm....maybe. Those are difficult questions to answer!

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, why do you think there is so few happy users of topical spironolactone?

Because the stuff is messy and smelly, and its general level of effectiveness as an antiandrogen is only so-so.

I have been thinking of changing from finasteride to some type of topical anti androgen, but I really just see bad "reviews" of topical spironolactone. Many people have said that a topical anti androgen has a problem to be effective because of absorption, but it seems a little vague as an explanation.

I think it's true that genuinely effective topical antiandrogens are few and far between, and spironolactone certainly isn't in that category. I think it's only a rather mediocre topical antiandrogen, although it's better than nothing (note that this is one area where I disagree with Dr. Proctor).

It's too bad that RU58841 is so extremely expensive and difficult to obtain. I think topical RU would likely be about as effective as Propecia, if only we could get the damned stuff!!

 

[treeshrew]

I'm looking in to the possibility of quitting propecia, but need to know that i can maintain what i have without it, since it's done a good job for me, for coming up to 7 years, but i feel it may be impairing me sexually.

Don't suppose you'd be able to go into more detail about sexual impairment? Is this a fairly standard long term effect of finasteride? How can you be so sure it's the drug? Is it still maintaining your hair as well as it always has?

finasteride is working great for me (coming up on a year) but I always wonder in the back of my mind how long it will last - 7 years sounds like a pretty good ride - so I'm curious how significant the effects are you are considering dropping it.

 

[die_hard]

Petchsky I'm thinking that the "side effects" would be caused by sometihng else other than finasteride...I mean 7 years later you get the sides and finasteride is to blame? it sounds a bit off the wall to me to suspect finasteride. I'm not sure but I would definately out my money that if finasteride is going to mess around with you, it would start a long time before 7 years.



-DH

 

[chore boy]

Bryan,

Wasn't it you that posted something saying that they tested a type-1 5ar inhibitor and found it to be ineffective in treating male pattern baldness?

 

[treadstone]

Yah I think Merck had a drug called MK-386, which only inhibits 5-AR type I, and their own studies showed it to be ineffective for male pattern baldness. MK-386 + finasteride would probably give you dutasteride like inhibition.

 

[chore boy]

If that's the case, why use a dual inhibitor? Seems like unneccessary side effects.

 

[Bryan]

If that's the case, why use a dual inhibitor? Seems like unneccessary side effects.

I do think a specific type 1 inhibitor helps a little, even if it's not as effective as a specific type 2 inhibitor. My general feeling for why dutasteride has a bit more overall effectiveness for male pattern baldness than finasteride is partly the more complete inhibition of type 2, and partly the additional type 1 inhibition.

 

[SoThatsLife]

I think it's true that genuinely effective topical antiandrogens are few and far between, and spironolactone certainly isn't in that category. I think it's only a rather mediocre topical antiandrogen, although it's better than nothing (note that this is one area where I disagree with Dr. Proctor).

Thats weird, I have always thought of the spironolactone in Proxiphen as giving it the anti-androgen effect that was making it so effective over years of use. Its so hard to find an effective non-finasteride treatment. minoxidil seems to be a good number 2, but this site makes me feel like minoxidil just gives you tons of shedding and no benefit.

 

[Petchsky]

Treeshaw/Diehard

You are both right, i have a new girlfriend and basically freaked out like a newbie when i had problems getting wood, what i needed was a b**ch slap, where were you guys huh? . Easier to blame proscar than the incessant drinking, lack of exercise, drugs etc that has characterised the last few months.

Treeshaw - the earliest photos i have to compare my hair is from 2004, not 2002 unfortunately, but when looking at a photo of my hair now and then it's really hard to tell if i have lost any ground at all, i don't know your regimen but i feel nizoral and min have really helped strengthen and prolong the effects of proscar.