Different types of DHT

[Petchsky]

What is the difference between scalp DHT and serum DHT?

Some medications
(finasteride/dutasteride) block more serum DHT than scalp DHT? What does this mean and which is the most effective to block?

Does topical finasteride work, or is it unclear?

A few questions floating around my head at the moment. I'm looking in to the possibility of quitting propecia, but need to know that i can maintain what i have without it, since it's done a good job for me, for coming up to 7 years, but i feel it may be impairing me sexually.

 

[treadstone]

If you dropped propecia, what would you replace it with? I remember the owner of the site was able to switch off Propecia and keep his hair with spironolactone 5% & Revivogen.

 

[SoThatsLife]

What are you thinking about using instead of finasteride?

Im a little on the same track, but I only use 0.5mg finasteride because everything else over that makes my nipples itch and I only been losing baseline for the last year. I have been looking at Proxiphen, but its so extremely expensive and you have to be spares if you want to cover a hole head. Got one months dose of Proxiphen yesterday and to be honestly I as a little shocked about the small size. It looks like spironolactone cream at night and finasteride in the morning could be a good way to go. If one could put minoxidil and spironolactone on the head at the same time, that would be nice, but I have read they dont like to be mixed.

Btw, I think spironolactone blocks more scalp dht than finasteride, but finasteride reduces serum dht to. Dr Proctor and Dr Lee says finasteride works better than spironolactone even if finasteride blocks less scalp dht.

 

[Petchsky]

Hey guys.

My first move has been to reduce my dosage of finasteride from 1.25mg to .625, see what that does, i've also ordered some l'arginine capsules to help with libido.

I'm going to start taking more natural supplements such as this one for prostate health
http://www.hairloss-research.org/newpro ... la-08.html

I've taken a supplement like this a few years before with positive results, i have medium brown hair, but after six months of taking a supplement similar to this one my hair turned dark brown.

I've been looking up research on this site -
http://www.hairloss-research.org/ProtocolMen08.html

which has influenced me to change my regimen. Risky, but i think it can be done.

Not dropping finasteride just yet but i think my new regimen will look like this,

Naturals - ultra natural prostate (contains a whole host of anti androgens, anti estogens, DHT blockers) - coconut oil, fish oil (omega3), maybe alpha lipoic acid

Revita shampoo which contains ketozonale, nano, sod, copper peptides, emu oil etc and proxiphen 1x a day,

Have considered Xandrox plus but i think proxiphen is much better, but is expensive and small amount.

 

[SoThatsLife]

proxiphen is nice for a small area I would think, but it seems really spares for a NW3+ area. It contains everything you need in a topical, but when you have to be really spares I guess some of the effect will go away.

 

[Petchsky]

Are you going to use the proxiphen, or carry on using it, or is it to expensive for you to carry on?

 

[SoThatsLife]

I actually order it because I needed to see for myself if the amount of proxiphen you get for 100$ was as small as some people say. I have searched/googled a lot about proxiphen, and haven't found any one that has more than frontal thinning that has used it as their only med and have had success, some have used it with finasteride and had success for a bigger Norwood area.

I'm not sure if i'll use it, I know its good, but prox-n and minoxidil could be just as good for a couple of years(in theory...).

 

[Bryan]

Got one months dose of Proxiphen yesterday and to be honestly I as a little shocked about the small size.

It's not any more shocking than the instructions that come with Prox-N, which say to use "8-10 drops, once or twice a day".

Dr. Proctor has always had a different point of view about these things than the typical poster on hairloss sites, who has a basic urge to smear copious quantities of topicals all over his scalp. But Dr. Proctor says, whoa there, you don't really need that much stuff all over your head. I suggest that you apply the amounts he recommends. I think he probably knows what he's talking about.

 

[Bryan]

I have searched/googled a lot about proxiphen, and haven't found any one that has more than frontal thinning that has used it as their only med and have had success...

You didn't look in the right place. If you search through older years of alt.baldspot (before Ernie took it over and ruined it), you can find lots of people who speak highly of Proxiphen. I myself have previously posted on this and other hairloss sites a compilation of a dozen other posters who used it and spoke highly of it. That was in response to people who kept claiming (erroneously) that they had "never heard of anybody using Proxiphen with success." I showed them that they were wrong.

I could probably find that same list of Proxiphen supporters again, if you'd like to read through it. Should I post it again?

 

[Petchsky]

Do it Bryan, i'm considering using it to get off propecia after 7 years.

 

[elvis123]

There is only one type of DHT, the bad type

 

[SoThatsLife]

Bryan, I KNOW Dr. P knows what he is talking about, he have said that he have kept his hair with Proxiphen, so I would guess Proxiphen is somewhat his personal "cure" of what he think is the best way to keep hair. Dr. P should update his site with some FAQ that was explaining in depth many of the questions I guess he gets constantly, and in that way eliminating some of the frustrations many of us get when we receive his super short answers. My only concern is that I'm thinning all over and I really dont know how much of Proxiphen I need to use. When he just says "just try to cover as much as possible", I guess I just get a little insecure and start to think that it would be best to cover the entire thinning area, but that would be real expensive. So if you would explain to me how to apply it in the best way for a nw5 thinning area and don't use more than one vial each month I would really appreciate it. And would you say covering the scalp sparsely is as effective as complete coverage?

It would have been nice to see some double tests where a group of 10 men uses minoxidil and Prox-N and another group only use Proxiphen. I'm real curious about the 2-4year prospective with minoxidil and Prox-N, if Prox-N help the minoxidil effect to last and to somewhat make the follicle a little less sensitive and stronger. Prox-N is nice for the scalp and the 2month dose really last for ages, so it would be a real cheap treatment. Maybe I should be my own guinea pig for 6 months and add minoxidil.

I would happily pay 100$ a month to keep my hair(I guess we all do).

Petchsky, I read somewhere that Dr. P says he don't recommend long time finasteride users to drop it. Have you thought about finasteride EOD. I just read that Dr. Cooley and Dr. Wong says to their patient to use finasteride 1mg EOD. They says it probably just a tiny bit less effective than everyday, and its more effective than 0.5mg finasteride everyday. But I haven't read about long time finasteride users that lowered their dose.

And do you exercise? That could probably help your sex drive.

 

[Bryan]

My only concern is that I'm thinning all over and I really dont know how much of Proxiphen I need to use. When he just says "just try to cover as much as possible", I guess I just get a little insecure and start to think that it would be best to cover the entire thinning area, but that would be real expensive. So if you would explain to me how to apply it in the best way for a nw5 thinning area and don't use more than one vial each month I would really appreciate it. And would you say covering the scalp sparsely is as effective as complete coverage?

He addressed those same issues regularly on alt.baldspot. He wants you to use the recommended dose of Proxiphen every day (which is 1/30 of a vial), and spread it around your general thinning area as best you can. It doesn't matter if you can't hit every little area on your scalp that's thinning, just spread the dose out as much as you can. He has often stated that it helps even those areas that don't get a direct application.

 

[Bryan]

Do it Bryan, i'm considering using it to get off propecia after 7 years.

Here it is, in full. "Troymaclure" is the poster who had claimed not to have seen even ONE poster who had used Proxiphen with success, and here is my reply to him:

My dear DEAR friend Troymaclure recently made the following statements in the thread about the most effective available treatments (regardless of cost), and it was in response to something I said about how Proxiphen probably should have been included in that list:

"....In all theyears I've been here around these forums i've yet to hear of ONE person who's used it with success...not a single one...although i know of plenty who have used it for a good while and dropped it because it was a complete waste of money...in fact Bryan it's only ever you who mentions it...funny that.
Nano, okay i hear that mentioned now and again...but Proxiphen?!? Please."

Here are a few posts I culled just from alt.baldspot by searching on the word "Proxiphen". I count 12 individuals (including well-known ones like John Ertel and Will Brink!) who claim success with Proxiphen, and please note that this is certainly not a COMPLETE list, just a few I found until I got tired of wading through unrelated posts from people about how much does it cost, what's in it, how do I get a prescription for it, etc. etc. And yes, I also found some posts from people who didn't get any results from Proxiphen! However, I don't _have_ to actually compare the number of happy and unhappy users, my only purpose here is to put the lie to what Troy said above! To save a little space, I took the liberty of snipping some of the more long-winded posts. Without further ado:

--------------------
From: KCOBURN
(dcdrummer@hotmail.com)
Subject: Proxiphen good for hairline
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 2002-02-04 06:33:41 PST

I used to use dr. p's proxiphen (px strength) on my hairline with minoxidil. Id apply minoxidil, wait 20 minutes and dab proxiphen on it. Proxiphen would last me about 3 months. I stopped using it because it grew too much hair and I had to shave an even line. I am a good responded to treatments so take what i am saying with a grain of salt but I am going back on it because it kept my hairline thick and definitely grew nonvellous and intermediate hairs for me. I do recommend it and no i dont work for Dr. P. If nothing else apply it at your hairlne and back so it wont recede anymore, and consider any growth a bonus, a bonus you could very well get.

---------------
From: Chuck
(chuckfrasher@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Proxiphen good for hairline
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 2002-02-06 12:30:54 PST

I've had very good results with Dr. P's Formulas and have posted this before. I will post specifically about this when I have a little more time. Believe it or not, I think Dr. P's shampoo is a gift from God. I have 3 separate experiences of using it. Each time, it worked. Two of these experiences were with the shampoo alone. My most recent is nano mixed with Propecia, Nizoral, and Dp. P's Advanced Regrowth Formula from lef.org. After a month or so off of the shampoo, I am losing gobbs of hair in the drain. I will explain in more detail later.

---------------------------
From: Todd Tomlinson
(todd_tomlinson@emeraldsolutions.com)
Subject: Re: *Proxiphen Users Please Read*
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 1998/01/10

I'm 40, have been balding since 20 and started on Proxiphen and Nano shampoo in October 96. I had lost 80-90% of the hair on top of my head with a little bit left at the front. With Proxiphen and Nano I saw pretty amazing results after 3-4 months (tons of short, thin, colorless hairs).
{snip}
Also, I know that people complain about $100/month for Proxiphen and that the ingredients may not add up to $100/month. For me it's an investment -- and research costs money. I would rather pay $100/month to Dr. P for Proxiphen, knowing that he's leading the way for new treatments... maybe $60 of my $100 will fuel the research that sparks something new that benefits all of us...

--------------------------------------------------------
From: calvin burnes (cburnes@ix.netcom.com)
Subject: my experience w/ proxiphen and nano shampoo
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 1997/03/25

hello,

there have been some people on this newsgroup who have asked for success stories of people using proxiphen. so i thought i would share my experience with the formula.

i selected proxiphen for a couple of reasons. the most important reason is that i don't like having to put topical solutions on my scalp 2x/day. in the past, i have used rogaine, and my main complaint is that you have to apply it twice a day. i hate this, because i am a very active person, and i usually do at least 2 activities/day that makes me sweat (biking, running, etc). the makers of rogaine suggest that you wash off the solution if you are going to sweat. i assume this is to avoid getting the solution into the mucous membranes (eyes, nose, etc). and in fact, when i sweat when i have rogaine on, it gets in my eyes, and stings. and i am lazy, i don't want to have to shower several times/day to make sure that the solution is removed before engaging in activities which cause me to sweat. i also hate the idea of having a topical solution on my head most of the time. and i have a real life to live, so i don't want to spend a lot of time attending to my hair. so i really like that proxiphen is only applied 1x/day. i apply it at night right before i go to bed, and i wash it off first thing when i shower in the morning.

the other reason i leaned towards proxiphen is the idea of tolerence. i am not a scientist, so i don't know how much validity this theory has, but it does make sense to me. i worry that rogaine will eventually lose its effectiveness over time. dr P's theory is that proxiphen has an advantage over rogaine in that because it contains a wider variety of agents, one is less likely to develop tolerance to it.

the big question i had was would it work for me.

so i started using proxiphen/nano shampoo 6 months ago. i am 31 years of age. my hairbegan thinning at 27, and has thinned substantially over the last 18 months. it is also receding. no bald spots as of yet, but the thinning was getting embarrasing. i started to see results with proxiphen after 4.5 months. i noticed small, very blond hairs beginning to sprout along the edge of my hairline. i believe that these hairs are sprouting throughout my scalp, but they are only visible at the edges of the hairline (because they blend in with the rest of my hair). i also noticed that my hair seemed generally thicker. since then , my hair has continued to thicken. i would say that overall, my hair volume appears to be 10-20% thicker on the top of my head compared to when i began the treatment. nothing huge, but enough to make a difference in my mind. another added benefit is that the hair on the top of my hair now grows longer in length. before starting the treatment, i could not get the hair of the top of my head to grow very long. now i am going to have to start having it trimmed again. i also seem to shed less hair (decrease in hair fallout rate), and the hair line seems to be moving forward a bit with these small, blond hairs (i guess these a vellous hairs).

overall, i am happy with proxiphen/nano. the application requires minimal inconvenience, the side effects are none (provided i don't overdue the amount i put on each night: if i put too much on, sometimes my eyes sting), and the results are good. the product has met my expectations (and perhaps surpassed them). i plan to continue to use the product. since i am such a lazy slob, i look forward to reducing the application from 1x/day to once every other day in a few months. yes, the product is expensive, but i am fortunate to have the financial resources to pay for it and for me it is quite worth the money.

i may add internal proscar to my regime, to get more results and to decrease my dependency on any one single formula. but i am not yet decided on this point.

one thing i want to add: this newsgroup has been a great source of info for me. there are lots of great contributors here! thanx for all of your help. wishing you all thick and volumous heads of hair.

------------------------------------------
From: John Ertel (ertel@xstar.com)
Subject: Re: Proxiphen feedback
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 1996/09/13

I'm still having good results on the frontal hair line with proxiphen... as far as concerns, I haven't had any side effects nor has anybody else I know of... your only concern would be whether you want to spend that much However, if you're ONLY treating the front hairline, one months treatment of proxiphen should last 2-4 months (depending on how much you use), making it only $25-50/mo. For me it didn't take much prox to get things started so you could probably easily stretch it out to a 4 month supply... however according to Dr. P and most people I've seen I may be the exception rather than the rule since for most people apparently it works better in back than in front. Like I said in a previous post though... you will be probably be able to tell within 4 months whether or not you will get any results at the hairline (my hairs started sprouting at 2 months) so why not spend the $100 for a 4 month supply... I believe dr. p offers a money back guarantee on the unused portion tho I don't know if this is only for nano/prox-n or for proxiphen too... i'm sure he'll pop in and say

--------------------
From: SForsgren
(sforsgren@aol.com)
Subject: Re: Dr. Proctor's Proxiphen ---
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 1996/07/08

Scott here.

I'll only comment on my personal experience. I've used his stuff for 2 1/2 years. Let me ask this, "If it didn't work, why in the world would I waste the time using NANO everyday and Proxiphen, etc. twice a day?" It certainly doesn't benefit me any if it doesn't grow hair.

In the 2 1/2 years, my loss has slowed and probably almost stopped. I still have a few areas that I am working on, and I can tell you that his stuff is getting better and better. In just the last 2 years, I can really tell that the more recent Prox is more effective than what I tried 2 years ago.

-------------------------------------
From: Mark D. (Gps@Gps.com)
Subject: Re: Is Dr. P's Proxiphen-N
worth a shot?
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 2004-08-12 07:41:16 PST

"SzaszFan" wrote in message
news:BD404FE4.12985%enalg@yahoo
>
> So overall the Prox has been beneficial for you?

Sure! (See my other message elsewhere).

I think Proctor shoots good pool...!

-------------------
From: Will Brink
(wbrink@earthlink.net/NOSPAM)
Subject: Re: Revivogen or Proxiphen
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 2000/06/02

{snip}
Prxiphen is the Rolls Royce of products in my view. If that does not grow hair on your head, nothing will at this point.

--------------------------------------
From: Omar Muhammad Javaid
(omarj@ren.us.itd.umich.edu)
Subject: Re: Proxiphen
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 1996/02/14

John Janssen (johnjans@usa.pipeline.com) wrote:
: ScottF is a broken record with his accolades about Proctor's goop. Just
: get as
: much info as you can from as many different sources as possible before
: you plunk down your hard earned bux. Good Luck.

Then I must be a broken record too--but in my case I have a science background as well. I've done the research--medline searches(yes, I've read the articles as well) and quite a few experiments on myself with a number of different "treatments." Nearly all of them were crap--except for Dr. Proctor's stuff.

------------------------------
From: J. Patrick Sweeney
(psweeney@ee.net)
Subject: Re: Proxiphen
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 1998/09/10

I have had good results. initially I used it daily, then went to every other day or "maintenance mode"

--------------------------
From: Cliff Thompson
(ct@ihug.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Proxiphen
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 1998/09/12

Just been using it just over two months along woth nano shampoo and conditioner. My results are good. I have small hair growth front and back and any new loss has stopped. Am not using anything else new so i am sure this is what is working for me. Cheers.

-----------------------
From: MR ED10000
(mred10000@aol.com)
Subject: Proxiphen...My observation
Newsgroups: alt.baldspot
Date: 1996/03/10

OK, I have been very weary of posting this for a while because it seems that everytime someone posts something positive about Proxiphen they are called an agent for Dr Proctor, or at least something to that effect. I have been using Proxiphen for 10 months now and I must say the results are very good. I have used Rogaine (1 year) = retin a (6 months.) I did see minimal success but none of which was satisfactory for me. The recession (sp) continued with Rogaine and was slower with the added Retin-a. However, I could say now, without a doubt that Proxiphen, especially when used with NANO Shampoo is the best treatment available today. No, it is not a wonder drug and Dr. Proctor is fully aware of that, but until we do have a wonder drug I will continue to use this treatment.

 

[Petchsky]

Thanks for that Bryan, NANO shampoo is something i've been meaning to buy for a while.

STL, I'm not going to make any snap decisions about getting off proscar, as i've used it for many years with no bad effects, and lately my lifestyle has been bad, stopped working out, unemployed until recently, lots of alcohol/drugs/smoking, may explain things...but i'm going to look in to it anyhow.

Bryan, what do you think is best for people who quit proscar after using it for years? does the natural DHT blockers/anti oxidants work? And what is the biggest cause of hairloss, is it DHT, estrogen, serum or scalp DHT, inflammation or a combination of all. Which is worse for hair, scalp or serum DHT, i thinking serum since proscar blocks 70% of that and only 38% scalp DHT.

 

[treadstone]

I think inflammation is just something that needs to be controlled - you can take Nizoral and eliminate inflammation yet still continue to have hairloss. However, unchecked it can probably exacaberate your balding.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, what do you think is best for people who quit proscar after using it for years? does the natural DHT blockers/anti oxidants work?

Which natural DHT blockers are you talking about? And are you talking about taking them internally, or using them topically?

And what is the biggest cause of hairloss, is it DHT, estrogen, serum or scalp DHT, inflammation or a combination of all.

It's follicular DHT, and other follicular androgens. Estrogen is probably mildly beneficial for male pattern baldness.

Which is worse for hair, scalp or serum DHT, i thinking serum since proscar blocks 70% of that and only 38% scalp DHT.

There's a lot of talk about so-called "scalp DHT" on hairloss forums, but I don't think it's particularly relevant. That's because the scalp includes a lot of sebaceous glands, which have a lot of their own DHT, and I feel that including that in a discussion of hairloss could be misleading.

 

[Petchsky]

Internally, things like 5 loxin, stinging nettle, pygeum, hmr-linigan.

Follicular DHT is not a term i'm used to seeing around, by that i would presume you meant scalp DHT, but you don't, otherwise you would have said that, so you mean in the follicle itself? Does propecia inhibit any DHT in the follicle or just in the blood?

 

[Bryan]

Follicular DHT is not a term i'm used to seeing around, by that i would presume you meant scalp DHT, but you don't, otherwise you would have said that, so you mean in the follicle itself?

Yes, in the follicle itself.

Does propecia inhibit any DHT in the follicle or just in the blood?

I've previously posted an important study by Happle & Hoffmann showing that the type of 5a-reductase within the dermal papillae of human scalp hair follicles seems to be almost exclusively the type 2 variety, so finasteride almost certainly does suppress DHT within the hair follicle. If it didn't even do that, it would be hard to explain why Propecia does as well as it does against male pattern baldness!

 

[Petchsky]

Ah right, cool. So you say that's how propecia really works and something like saw palmetto, which is often cited as a DHT blocker, doesn't?

Does topical spironolactone or revivogen block DHT in the follicle, or do i have to hunt through the internet to find out myself?