Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

[IdealForehead]

17-alpha, alfatradiol, is what is used in ell-cranell/Pantostin. It’s clinically proven to increase anagen hair counts. In fact, it’s bee used to treat male pattern baldness in women who have undergone aromatase inhibition for breast cancer. It isn’t bad for hair.

Estriol is the weakest bio available form of estrogen, and is a metabolite of estrogen. If estrogen is poor, estriol is even more so. Receptors have the highest affinity for 17b.

I agree and EE is not healthy and not normal. I also agree that it has a low affinity to estrogenic tissues because of its synthetic nature. I am willing to try a dose of 4mg 17b/100mg prometrium for a while but I’ll need to get the latter online.

I just found another reason for you to get off of ethinyl estradiol which connects to this same principle of differential ER-alpha vs. ER-beta activation:

Estrogen receptor alpha regulates matrix metalloproteinase-13 promoter activity

Many females develop bone diseases such as osteoporosis, and joint diseases such as osteoarthritis after menopause when estrogen levels decline. As estrogen receptors (ER) are present in such tissues, it is possible that the loss of estrogen at menopause influences the expression of enzymes such as members of the MMP family of proteinases to affect bone and connective tissue metabolism. The present study was undertaken to assess a possible relationship between ER-α and MMP-13 expression at the promoter level, and to determine how such a relationship could be modulated by ligands such as estrogen. Using a rabbit synovial cell line lacking endogenous ER, a transient transfection system with an ER-α construct, and a series of MMP-13 promoter-luciferase constructs of varying lengths and with specific mutations in transcription factor binding sites, it was found that ER-α can significantly enhance MMP-13 promoter activity via the AP-1 site, with modulatory influences by the Runx and PEA-3 sites on this ER-α dependent enhancement of the promoter activity. This enhancement by ER-α was significantly depressed in the presence of 17-ß-estradiol in a dose dependent manner. The influence of tamoxifen and raloxifen on the activity of the ER-α was consistent with their known agonist/antagonist activity. These findings indicate that loss of estrogen in vivo could potentially lead to enhanced expression of MMP-13, a proteinase that has been implicated in both osteoporosis and osteoarthritis, and thus contribute to the development and progression of these conditions.

https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0925-4439(06)00112-8
​

So not only is the abnormal ER-alpha stimulation terrible for hair growth because it induces catagen (cessation of growth), it may also lead to osteoporosis and osteoarthritis over time. As someone who enjoys the gym and physical activity, this is something you would not want to have to face long term from your current synthetic hormonal profile.

I tried to find data on 17 alpha-estrogen and how it affects ER-alpha vs ER-beta receptors but could not. When dealing with a known agent vs. an unknown agent, I would always prefer to stick to the known agents. And the known agents in this case (eg. 17 beta-estradiol, estriol) are also far easier to get prescriptions for anyway.

On that note, from all this data, I can also now answer a question which I couldn't before: Which is better? Triest or Biest?

Triest features estradiol/estriol/estrone while Biest has estradiol/estriol only.

Given the greater alpha stimulation of estrone it would seem estrone is relatively useless (and even potentially harmful). This may be why many hormone sites describe estrone as the "ugly estrogen". Thus Biest is the most ideal treatment for menopausal hormone replacement.

Dosages are reviewed here:
https://www.womensinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Female-Hormone-Chart.pdf

Biest is traditionally 80% estriol, 20% estradiol, which is perfect to try to maximize the ER-beta stimulation from estriol. Again, only estriol preferentially stimulates ER-beta which is what we want. Estradiol stimulates ER-alpha and ER-beta equally. The reason Biest is so heavily weighted to estriol (80% composition) is exactly what you said - estriol is weak, so you need more of it to get a decent effect from it. Estriol also has a short half life.

You would yet again be selling yourself short if you only took 17 beta-estradiol without estriol. With just estradiol, you will have equal ER-alpha and ER-beta stimulation (which would certainly be much, much better than the only ER-alpha stimulation you're getting now from Diane 35). But with a standard Biest preparation, you'd be getting some extra ER-beta stimulation which should give you the absolute best results for your hair and long term health.

I would call around more hormone replacement clinics and naturopaths until you can find someone willing to prescribe Biest to you. Try not to scare anyone you meet with your medical history - if they think you're too "complex" they might not want to touch you for fear of liability. I would simply tell them you have POF, are unhappy on Diane 35, worry about your long term health on synthetic hormones, and you'd like to switch to something more natural like Biest.

It might take a few tries but I'm sure you can get someone to prescribe it for you. This is exactly what a product like Biest is designed for. It's not off the map in the slightest.

 

[Georgie]

lol when you have done propecia, minoxidil oral/topical, ketoconazole, LLLT, RU, enza, spironolactone, and wounding for over a period of three years and none of them stopped shedding at all and then a few weeks on seti completely stops all shedding I would say that is good results so far.

Sounds expensive though

 

[Georgie]

I just found another reason for you to get off of ethinyl estradiol which connects to this same principle of differential ER-alpha vs. ER-beta activation:

Estrogen receptor alpha regulates matrix metalloproteinase-13 promoter activity

Many females develop bone diseases such as osteoporosis, and joint diseases such as osteoarthritis after menopause when estrogen levels decline. As estrogen receptors (ER) are present in such tissues, it is possible that the loss of estrogen at menopause influences the expression of enzymes such as members of the MMP family of proteinases to affect bone and connective tissue metabolism. The present study was undertaken to assess a possible relationship between ER-α and MMP-13 expression at the promoter level, and to determine how such a relationship could be modulated by ligands such as estrogen. Using a rabbit synovial cell line lacking endogenous ER, a transient transfection system with an ER-α construct, and a series of MMP-13 promoter-luciferase constructs of varying lengths and with specific mutations in transcription factor binding sites, it was found that ER-α can significantly enhance MMP-13 promoter activity via the AP-1 site, with modulatory influences by the Runx and PEA-3 sites on this ER-α dependent enhancement of the promoter activity. This enhancement by ER-α was significantly depressed in the presence of 17-ß-estradiol in a dose dependent manner. The influence of tamoxifen and raloxifen on the activity of the ER-α was consistent with their known agonist/antagonist activity. These findings indicate that loss of estrogen in vivo could potentially lead to enhanced expression of MMP-13, a proteinase that has been implicated in both osteoporosis and osteoarthritis, and thus contribute to the development and progression of these conditions.

https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0925-4439(06)00112-8
​

So not only is the abnormal ER-alpha stimulation terrible for hair growth because it induces catagen (cessation of growth), it may also lead to osteoporosis and osteoarthritis over time. As someone who enjoys the gym and physical activity, this is something you would not want to have to face long term from your current synthetic hormonal profile.

I tried to find data on 17 alpha-estrogen and how it affects ER-alpha vs ER-beta receptors but could not. When dealing with a known agent vs. an unknown agent, I would always prefer to stick to the known agents. And the known agents in this case (eg. 17 beta-estradiol, estriol) are also far easier to get prescriptions for anyway.

On that note, from all this data, I can also now answer a question which I couldn't before: Which is better? Triest or Biest?

Triest features estradiol/estriol/estrone while Biest has estradiol/estriol only.

Given the greater alpha stimulation of estrone it would seem estrone is relatively useless (and even potentially harmful). This may be why many hormone sites describe estrone as the "ugly estrogen". Thus Biest is the most ideal treatment for menopausal hormone replacement.

Dosages are reviewed here:
https://www.womensinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Female-Hormone-Chart.pdf

Biest is traditionally 80% estriol, 20% estradiol, which is perfect to try to maximize the ER-beta stimulation from estriol. Again, only estriol preferentially stimulates ER-beta which is what we want. Estradiol stimulates ER-alpha and ER-beta equally. The reason Biest is so heavily weighted to estriol (80% composition) is exactly what you said - estriol is weak, so you need more of it to get a decent effect from it. Estriol also has a short half life.

You would yet again be selling yourself short if you only took 17 beta-estradiol without estriol. With just estradiol, you will have equal ER-alpha and ER-beta stimulation (which would certainly be much, much better than the only ER-alpha stimulation you're getting now from Diane 35). But with a standard Biest preparation, you'd be getting some extra ER-beta stimulation which should give you the absolute best results for your hair and long term health.

I would call around more hormone replacement clinics and naturopaths until you can find someone willing to prescribe Biest to you. Try not to scare anyone you meet with your medical history - if they think you're too "complex" they might not want to touch you for fear of liability. I would simply tell them you have POF, are unhappy on Diane 35, worry about your long term health on synthetic hormones, and you'd like to switch to something more natural like Biest.

It might take a few tries but I'm sure you can get someone to prescribe it for you. This is exactly what a product like Biest is designed for. It's not off the map in the slightest.

My plan is to stick with progynova because it’s he cheapest bio estrogen I can use and it’s the main one I want anyway. If I want to add estriol I can always get a cream or vaginal tablet. I’ll get some prometrium online and pair 100mg continuous dosage daily with 4-6mg progynova split into morning and evening most likely, and see how that goes. Currently I think I’m having either a minoxidil or avodart systemic shed because not only are my scalp but brow and lash hairs and coming out in chunks. Rubbing my eyes yields 3-4 lashes at a time and it’s getting scary. It could also be the topical estrogen I’m using going systemic. Anyway, I’m going to wait til this particular shed ends (hopefully), then start with the updates protocol thereafter, just so I can start from baseline-type shedding.

Also, just as a note of interest, here is an example from over at Her Alopecia of what derms are prescribing the women. 3/4 of treatment plans look like this ie: birth control or estrogens, Aa’s And a 5AR. This woman for some reason though has been given extra estrogen ontop of Diane which is think is f*****g insane. (ps Ginette is just one generic name for Diane)

Hello ,
i am a lady of 39 years and have female pattern baldness since 2012 , i took ginette 35 (cyproterone acetate ) from 2015 september to 2016 july (i,e 10 months) but while on ginette 35 on 8th month my period got close to stop and was diagnosed with high level of prolactin and blood sugar (pp) and hair fall came back again (i was doing fine with ginette , my hair fall reduced to 5 to 10 per day) and i left ginette and was put on metformin for 1.5 months and my period got regular but hair fall continued and prolactin and blood sugar came down. Now my present derma put me on bicalutamide 50 mg /day , finasteride 5 mg / day and again diane 35 /21 days (cyproterone acetate ) since last february 2018.But now again my period has got decreased this months i,e march and i was sent to a gynocologist and she said it is due to the side effect of cyproterone acetate , so she added another pill of natural estrogen (premarin ) and to watch how it regulate my period . does anybody has any idea regarding consuming bicalutamide +finas+ cyproteron acetate taking parallely ????

 

[IdealForehead]

My plan is to stick with progynova because it’s he cheapest bio estrogen I can use and it’s the main one I want anyway. I’ll get some prometrium online and pair 100mg continuous dosage daily with 4-6mg progynova split into morning and evening most likely, and see how that goes. Currently I think I’m having either a minoxidil or avodart systemic shed because not only are my scalp but brow and lash hairs and coming out in chunks. Rubbing my eyes yields 3-4 lashes at a time and it’s getting scary. It could also be the topical estrogen I’m using going systemic. Anyway, I’m going to wait til this particular shed ends (hopefully), then start with the updates protocol thereafter, just so I can start from baseline-type shedding.

Also, just as a note of interest, here is an example from over at Her Alopecia of what derms are prescribing the women. 3/4 of treatment plans look like this ie: birth control or estrogens, Aa’s And a 5AR. This woman for some reason though has been given extra estrogen ontop of Diane which is think is f*****g insane.

Hello ,
i am a lady of 39 years and have female pattern baldness since 2012 , i took ginette 35 (cyproterone acetate ) from 2015 september to 2016 july (i,e 10 months) but while on ginette 35 on 8th month my period got close to stop and was diagnosed with high level of prolactin and blood sugar (pp) and hair fall came back again (i was doing fine with ginette , my hair fall reduced to 5 to 10 per day) and i left ginette and was put on metformin for 1.5 months and my period got regular but hair fall continued and prolactin and blood sugar came down. Now my present derma put me on bicalutamide 50 mg /day , finasteride 5 mg / day and again diane 35 /21 days (cyproterone acetate ) since last february 2018.But now again my period has got decreased this months i,e march and i was sent to a gynocologist and she said it is due to the side effect of cyproterone acetate , so she added another pill of natural estrogen (premarin ) and to watch how it regulate my period . does anybody has any idea regarding consuming bicalutamide +finas+ cyproteron acetate taking parallely ????

Well I can't argue too much - that's a pretty good plan that I think should work well.

This would at least be a very good start for getting you off the toxic Diane 35 you're taking. The catagen stimulation from isolated ethinyl estradiol in absence of any natural estrogens to counteract it could easily explain why you have said your hair stops growing for long periods at a time and also why your entire body's hair has been progressively failing.

On the other hand, though, based on what the research says about the ER-alpha vs. ER-beta receptors, I feel obliged to again repeat that you'd probably do even better still with a combo estradiol/estriol to get a more predominantly ER-beta stimulation. If it's not available to you now, you could always transition to that down the road if you want.

Just curious, if you ever called around, did you find it difficult or expensive to try to get some bi-est (80% estriol, 20% estradiol) compounded? I thought that stuff should be pretty easy to get if you have POF to start with.

If you Google your city name and 'bioidentical hormones', just on the first page there's like a dozen places that claim to offer bioidentical HRT.

Not sure how you're going to get your estrogen, but it would probably be better if you were getting it through a proper clinic so you can get regular blood monitoring etc and dose adjustments as well with it.

As for that woman you describe, that's a pretty f*****g aggressive regimen. I have no idea what's going on with her though. Women are clearly more complicated due to the estrogen factors, but I think we have now worked out a pretty good understanding of how to manipulate those for the best gains.

 

[Georgie]

Well I can't argue too much - that's a pretty good plan that I think should work well.

This would at least be a very good start for getting you off the toxic Diane 35 you're taking. The catagen stimulation from isolated ethinyl estradiol in absence of any natural estrogens to counteract it could easily explain why you have said your hair stops growing for long periods at a time and also why your entire body's hair has been progressively failing.

On the other hand, though, based on what the research says about the ER-alpha vs. ER-beta receptors, I must repeat that you'd probably do even better still with a combo estradiol/estriol to get a more predominantly ER-beta stimulation. If it's not available to you now, you could always transition to that down the road if you want.

Just curious, if you ever called around, did you find it difficult or expensive to try to get some bi-est (80% estriol, 20% estradiol) compounded? I thought that stuff should be pretty easy to get if you have POF to start with.

If you Google your city name and 'bioidentical hormones', just on the first page there's like a dozen places that claim to offer bioidentical HRT.

Not sure how you're going to get your estrogen, but it would probably be better if you were getting it through a proper clinic so you can get regular blood monitoring etc and dose adjustments as well with it.

As for that woman you describe, that's a pretty f*****g aggressive regimen. I have no idea what's going on with her though. Women are clearly more complicated due to the estrogen factors, but I think we have now worked out a pretty good understanding of how to manipulate those for the best gains.

I get my estrogen from my gyn. He gave me provera to pair with it but I’d rather f*****g eat glass. I’ll get the prometrium from all day chemist and review with him when next I visit. As for the Biest, yes theoretically great - for women over 50. The 80/20 ratio isn’t right for a younger woman. If I were to take the combination it would have to be 80 17b, 20 estriol, because I need to have the normal predominant hormones for my age afterall, which should be estradiol. As I said, I think you’ve a valid point insomuch as he combination may be useful, but I can easily get estriol tablets and 1-2mg onto 4mg or so estradiol.

 

[IdealForehead]

I get my estrogen from my gyn. He gave me provera to pair with it but I’d rather f*****g eat glass. I’ll get the prometrium from all day chemist and review with him when next I visit. As for the Biest, yes theoretically great - for women over 50. The 80/20 ratio isn’t right for a younger woman. If I were to take the combination it would have to be 80 17b, 20 estriol, because I need to have the normal predominant hormones for my age afterall, which should be estradiol. As I said, I think you’ve a valid point insomuch as he combination may be useful, but I can easily get estriol tablets and 1-2mg onto 4mg or so estradiol.

Okay that's good if you can get estriol tablets separately. You will be able to adjust things that way.

Keep in mind the reason the quantities are designed as they are for Biest is:

Estriol - 5 hour half life, 11.3% ER-alpha and 17.6% ER-beta binding affinity vs. estradiol
Estradiol - 13-20 hour half life, equal 100% ER-alpha/beta binding

So just based on half lives, if you consumed an equal amount of both, you'd still have almost 80% estradiol and 20% estriol in circulation because the estriol is breaking down 3-4x faster. When you additionally account for the relatively weak ER binding of the estriol, you're getting almost 95% estradiol effect in the body and 5% estriol effect.

That's from a 50/50 estradiol/estriol tablet.

Most people WANT the estriol effect because it's the most desirable of the female hormones (ie. pregnancy skin/hair).

If you were to take a 80% estradiol and 20% estriol tablet, and follow the same approximation, you'll be getting maybe 1% of your systemic effect from estriol and 99% from the estradiol.

These are just rough ballpark numbers. But it illustrates the principle.

You need a big dose of estriol for it to add up to anything in the body based on the low half life and weak binding. That's why it's done that way.

If you can get them as separate pills though, this is all stuff you can experiment with over time.

 

[Georgie]

Okay that's good if you can get estriol tablets separately. You will be able to adjust things that way.

Keep in mind the reason the quantities are designed as they are for Biest is:

Estriol - 5 hour half life, 11.3% ER-alpha and 17.6% ER-beta binding affinity vs. estradiol
Estradiol - 13-20 hour half life, equal 100% ER-alpha/beta binding

So just based on half lives, if you consumed an equal amount of both, you'd still have almost 80% estradiol and 20% estriol in circulation because the estriol is breaking down 3-4x faster. When you additionally account for the relatively weak ER binding of the estriol, you're getting almost 95% estradiol effect in the body and 5% estriol effect.

That's from a 50/50 estradiol/estriol tablet.

Most people WANT the estriol effect because it's the most desirable of the female hormones (ie. pregnancy skin/hair).

If you were to take a 80% estradiol and 20% estriol tablet, and follow the same approximation, you'll be getting maybe 1% of your systemic effect from estriol and 99% from the estradiol.

These are just rough ballpark numbers. But it illustrates the principle.

You need a big dose of estriol for it to add up to anything in the body based on the low half life and weak binding. That's why it's done that way.

If you can get them as separate pills though, this is all stuff you can experiment with over time.

Yeah I have been reading around and I’ve seen some good things about estriol re personal experiences told by women. So I am willing to venture down this road. I think it’s just going to take a while because I need to order this stuff from India, annoyingly. May also order some topical e3 for my skin. I already use Hydroquinone 2% for estrogen-induced melasma and hyaluronic acid, and then both work really well for evening out skint tone, particularly the hydroquinone which has been a god send, but I’m now interested to see what a small amount of estriol topically can do.

 

[Georgie]

i got some set in the mail today. going to start on 120mg 2 x a day and go from there.

 

[IdealForehead]

Yeah I have been reading around and I’ve seen some good things about estriol re personal experiences told by women. So I am willing to venture down this road. I think it’s just going to take a while because I need to order this stuff from India, annoyingly. May also order some topical e3 for my skin. I already use Hydroquinone 2% for estrogen-induced melasma and hyaluronic acid, and then both work really well for evening out skint tone, particularly the hydroquinone which has been a god send, but I’m now interested to see what a small amount of estriol topically can do.

I'm glad you're open to it, but I have no idea why you would want to order hormones from India. You have a perfectly valid reason for getting them locally (POF) and loads of clinics and pharmacies that can easily sell to you.

Then you know what you're getting is pure, clean, regulated, and tested. And I don't think it should be particularly expensive either. HRT is extremely common.

If I could get legit daro at local pharmacy for a decent price, no way in hell would I be ordering it from some random factory in China.

Also 120 mg two times a day of what? If you mean estriol that doesn't sound right at all.

Biest is 80% estriol and 20% estradiol.
Daily dose is typically max 5 mg twice daily.

That means 4 mg of estriol and 1 mg of estradiol twice daily.

 

[Georgie]

I'm glad you're open to it, but I have no idea why you would want to order hormones from India. You have a perfectly valid reason for getting them locally (POF) and loads of clinics and pharmacies that can easily sell to you.

Then you know what you're getting is pure, clean, regulated, and tested. And I don't think it should be particularly expensive either. HRT is extremely common.

If I could get legit daro at local pharmacy for a decent price, no way in hell would I be ordering it from some random factory in China.

Also 120 mg two times a day of what? If you mean estriol that doesn't sound right at all.

Biest is 80% estriol and 20% estradiol.
Daily dose is typically max 5 mg twice daily.

That means 4 mg of estriol and 1 mg of estradiol twice daily.

Well it would mean paying in excess of $200 to see a specialist just to get a script. I have ordered drugs through Alldaychemist before without incident. They seem to be very good quality actually. If it works out well, i can see my gyn again down the track, and/or a gp and say, this is what i've been taking, i need a script, that way the money will be worth it for something that works.

the 120mg twice daily was referring to setipiprant. Yes, i'm jumping on that bandwagon.

 

[IdealForehead]

Well it would mean paying in excess of $200 to see a specialist just to get a script. I have ordered drugs through Alldaychemist before without incident. They seem to be very good quality actually. If it works out well, i can see my gyn again down the track, and/or a gp and say, this is what i've been taking, i need a script, that way the money will be worth it for something that works.

the 120mg twice daily was referring to setipiprant. Yes, i'm jumping on that bandwagon.

Cool. I think this will be a big game changer for you.

As for seti, I still maintain that topical antihistamines probably do a similar job as seti for a much cheaper price, but that is purely my conjecture based on proposed mechanisms of action.

We already have at least two small studies on topical cetirizine showing it works. Looks like we'll soon have some proof one way or another with this moderate sized study for seti:

Estimated Study Completion Date : June 5, 2018
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02781311

If that demonstrates some impressive results, I will probably try some too for backup or adjunctive benefit but I will wait until then.

 

[Sanchez1234]

Update on my Daro: I finished my 500mg Daro batch. The last 3 months i tried 2ml at 0.5%. I don't seem Telogen Effluvium respond to this as it made my hair much worse and no signs of stoppage. Anti-androgen is not for me. So as of today i stopped.

Looking for a new regime to try.

@IdealForehead thanks for helping me out with testing this. Appreciate it.

 

[IdealForehead]

Update on my Daro: I finished my 500mg Daro batch. The last 3 months i tried 2ml at 0.5%. I don't seem Telogen Effluvium respond to this as it made my hair much worse and no signs of stoppage. Anti-androgen is not for me. So as of today i stopped.

Looking for a new regime to try.

@IdealForehead thanks for helping me out with testing this. Appreciate it.

Hey, Sanchez. Sorry to hear it didn't go well for you. Are you saying it was causing a telogen efluvium for 3 months straight? Did you have Telogen Effluvium before the daro or just once you started daro?

I had about 2.5-3 months of Telogen Effluvium total when I started on aggressive treatments but then the loss all stopped dead after that.

What other treatments have you tried, and what brought you to this point of experimentation with your hair?

 

[Georgie]

Cool. I think this will be a big game changer for you.

As for seti, I still maintain that topical antihistamines probably do a similar job as seti for a much cheaper price, but that is purely my conjecture based on proposed mechanisms of action.

We already have at least two small studies on topical cetirizine showing it works. Looks like we'll soon have some proof one way or another with this moderate sized study for seti:

Estimated Study Completion Date : June 5, 2018
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02781311

If that demonstrates some impressive results, I will probably try some too for backup or adjunctive benefit but I will wait until then.

I think for those who are virtual non responders to the usual treatments should at least try microdoses given the extensive knowledge we have about prostaglandin pathways and how they influence hair growth. I’m also looking into thymosin beta-4 peptide. I’m fine with needles and it can’t do any harm, it’s also quite inexpensive if you follow the 10mg x 1-2 months per year protocol.

 

[Georgie]

Update on my Daro: I finished my 500mg Daro batch. The last 3 months i tried 2ml at 0.5%. I don't seem Telogen Effluvium respond to this as it made my hair much worse and no signs of stoppage. Anti-androgen is not for me. So as of today i stopped.

Looking for a new regime to try.

@IdealForehead thanks for helping me out with testing this. Appreciate it.

Are you going to try seti? I’m so sorry it hasn’t worked out the way you hoped. Seems the case for most of us. Maybe it needed more time to really work but I understand not wanting to wait around to see if it will when things are only getting worse.

 

[SteveTabernack]

Another reality check from getting a hair cut today.... Ridiculous how bad my situation has gotten while on this killer of all androgens.

Where are you all getting your seti from? Guess thats the next cope treatment for me to try

 

[countjulian]

Yeah I have been reading around and I’ve seen some good things about estriol re personal experiences told by women. So I am willing to venture down this road. I think it’s just going to take a while because I need to order this stuff from India, annoyingly. May also order some topical e3 for my skin. I already use Hydroquinone 2% for estrogen-induced melasma and hyaluronic acid, and then both work really well for evening out skint tone, particularly the hydroquinone which has been a god send, but I’m now interested to see what a small amount of estriol topically can do.

You should have told me I could have grabbed it for you while I was still in India and shipped it to you from the states.

 

[whatevr]

Cool. I think this will be a big game changer for you.

As for seti, I still maintain that topical antihistamines probably do a similar job as seti for a much cheaper price, but that is purely my conjecture based on proposed mechanisms of action.

We already have at least two small studies on topical cetirizine showing it works. Looks like we'll soon have some proof one way or another with this moderate sized study for seti:

Estimated Study Completion Date : June 5, 2018
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02781311

If that demonstrates some impressive results, I will probably try some too for backup or adjunctive benefit but I will wait until then.

I would never put sh*t like Cetirizine in the same league as oral Setipiprant at 2g/day.

Cetirizine has been done to death on German forums since ages. No one ever had any success with it. Meanwhile, 2g of Seti a day seems to actually be working for some people here, and once it goes widespread we will probably see far more success stories.

 

[Georgie]

Another reality check from getting a hair cut today.... Ridiculous how bad my situation has gotten while on this killer of all androgens.

Where are you all getting your seti from? Guess thats the next cope treatment for me to try

I impatiently bought some from alibaba whilst I await a group buy from the private forums. Because it’s difficult to measure accurately I’m doing around 250-300mg daily split into morning and evening. So far i’ve Taken it orally 3 times and for some fucked reason I feel DROWSY about half an hour later. I have no idea why.

 

[Georgie]

I would never put sh*t like Cetirizine in the same league as oral Setipiprant at 2g/day.

Cetirizine has been done to death on German forums since ages. No one ever had any success with it. Meanwhile, 2g of Seti a day seems to actually be working for some people here, and once it goes widespread we will probably see far more success stories.

And hopefully with he imminent release of fevi, prices will come down, or perhaps we can even try fevi. Doses are only 150mg daily.