Curcumin, androgen receptor antagonist.......study...

patagonia

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harold said:
el_duterino said:
thanks so much for all this info, Michael
So we can speculate that this ASC-J9 foam can possibly also discolor or grey-out existing hair then ?

We can speculate but thats it. A quick search on melanocytes, melanin and curcumin turned up nothing.
Actually scratch that....

Curcumin downregulates the constitutive activity of NF-kappaB and induces apoptosis in novel mouse melanoma cells.
Marín YE, Wall BA, Wang S, Namkoong J, Martino JJ, Suh J, Lee HJ, Rabson AB, Yang CS, Chen S, Ryu JH.

Susan Lehman Cullman Laboratory for Cancer Research, Department of Chemical Biology, Ernest Mario School of Pharmacy, Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, Piscataway, NJ, USA.

Melanoma, the most deadly form of skin cancer, is very aggressive and resistant to present therapies. The transcription factor nuclear factor-kappa B (NF-kappaB) has been reported to be constitutively active in many types of cancer. Constitutively active NF-kappaB seen in melanoma likely plays a central role in cell survival and growth. We have established and characterized novel cell lines from our murine melanoma model. Here we report the constitutive activity of NF-kappaB in these melanoma-derived cells, as shown by electrophoretic mobility shift assay and reporter assays. We hypothesized that agents that inhibit NF-kappaB may also inhibit cell proliferation and may induce apoptosis in such melanoma cells. Curcumin has been shown to inhibit NF-kappaB activity in several cell types. In our system, curcumin selectively inhibited growth of melanoma cells, but not normal melanocytes. Curcumin induced melanoma cells to undergo apoptosis, as shown by caspase-3 activation, inversion of membrane phosphatidyl serine, and increases in cells in the sub-G1 phase. A curcumin dose-dependent inhibition of NF-kappaB-driven reporter activity correlated with decreased levels of phospho-IkappaBalpha, and decreased expression of NF-kappaB-target genes COX-2 and cyclin D1. This study demonstrates that the use of cells from our model system can facilitate studies of signaling pathways in melanoma. We furthermore conclude that curcumin, a natural and safe compound, inhibits NF-kappaB activity and the expression of its downstream target genes, and also selectively induces apoptosis of melanoma cells but not normal melanocytes. These encouraging in-vitro results support further investigation of curcumin for treatment of melanoma in vivo.

hh

Thanks Harold, great find!

From what I understand, this study explains that curcumin wont interfere with melanocites... which are responsible for hair color.

So I am assuming that based on the info we have at hand, that regular curcumin is safe for us to experiment with in our shampoo and or face wash...
 

patagonia

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el_duterino said:
thanks so much for all this info, Michael
So we can speculate that this ASC-J9 foam can possibly also discolor or grey-out existing hair then ?

It appears to me that AndroScience C. has a group of really smart fellows working on three product based on curcuma. .. they have been at it for years.

This company has access to information and research that us regular guys do not, and have poured millions into this project...

From what I understand their whole model is based on curcuma.

My personal semi-educated guess is that curcuma appears to be safe..IMHO
 

michael barry

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harm,

topically is how the last experiment I posted was done, and the first link about the 65-percent reduction in sebum with soy was done.................topically with soy isoflavones is probably much better than internal......it should reduce sebum by the fifth or sixth week pretty dramatically, especially if put on a warm, moist, hydrated skin....
 

el_duterino

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Michael, apart from decreasing sebum, do we know if Soy isoflavones act against DHT , or block/inhibit the Androgen receptors ?

We know what Equol does, but at present this molecule is very expensive and hard to obtain for regular use.

Thanks
El Duterino
 

michael barry

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both genistein and diadzien inhibited alpha five reductase type two enzymes in whole cell assays in experiments at about a 90 percent consistency..........................



TABLE 3
Inhibition of 5 α-reductase isozymes by various natural
flavonoidsa
5 α-Reductase
Cell-Free assay IC50 (µM) Whole-cell assay IC50
(µM)
Polyphenol Type 1 Type 2 Type 1 Type 2
Myricetin 23 (96) >100 (31) >100 (11) >100 (11)
Quercitin 23 (96) >100 (14) >100 (15) >100 (29)
Baicalein 29 (79) 99 (51) >100 (24) >100 (4)
Fisetin 57 (97) >100 (4) >100 (42) >100 (27)
Biochanin A >100 (50) 17 (74) 64 (64) 5 (93)
Daidzein >100 (3) 29 (69) 10 (13) 7 (89)
Kaempferol >100 (22) 12 (62) 79 (60) 20 (85)
Flavone >100 (20) >100 (-52) NDb ND
Genistein >100 (16) 23 (76) >100 (22) 20 (89)
Morin >100 (6) >100 (33) ND ND
Alpha- >100 (6) >100 (-13) ND ND
napthoflavone
Taxifolin >100 (5) >100 (5) ND ND
Beta- >100 (3) >100 (4) ND ND
napthoflavone
Chrysin >100 (2) >100 (1) ND ND
Rutin >100 (4) >100 (0) ND ND
 

HARM1

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michael barry said:
harm,

topically is how the last experiment I posted was done, and the first link about the 65-percent reduction in sebum with soy was done.................topically with soy isoflavones is probably much better than internal......it should reduce sebum by the fifth or sixth week pretty dramatically, especially if put on a warm, moist, hydrated skin....
I got that. I asked what do you think of using soy oil topically insted of soy gel caps?
 

michael barry

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Isoflavone Concentration in Soyfoods
Isoflavones are found in soyfoods both with and without a sugar molecule attached. The two primary isoflavones in soybeans are daidzein and genistein and their respective glucosides, genistin and daidzin. Soyfoods typically contain more genistein than daidzein, although this ratio varies among different soy products.

On a dry weight basis, raw soybeans contain between two and four milligrams of total isoflavones/gram. Soyfoods differ somewhat in their concentration of isoflavones, but all of the traditional soyfoods, such as tofu, soy milk, tempeh and miso, are rich sources of isoflavones providing about 30 to 40 milligrams per serving. One-half cup of soy flour contains approximately 50 milligrams of isoflavone. Only two soy products, soy sauce and soyoil, do not contain isoflavones.

Soy protein concentrates (<65% soy protein), a widely used ingredient (frequently used in soy burgers), may or may not contain nutritionally significant amounts of isoflavones depending on how the product was processed. However, isoflavone levels in the most commonly used soy protein concentrates are very low. Both soy flour and textured soy protein are rich in isoflavones. Soy protein isolate (<90% soy protein) contains less than these products but still has significant amounts.

For those interested in the full benefits of soy isoflavones, newer naturally concentrated products are available with much better flavor than retail soy products. Because of a patented, natural concentration process, just 1 Revival Soy bar or shake contains the amount of isoflavones found in 6 cups of a typical soymilk. Learn more.

A group of soyfoods, often referred to as second generation products (such as soy hot dogs and soy-based ice cream) can have much lower amounts of isoflavones because they frequently contain considerable amounts of non-soy ingredients.

Estimated Values for Isoflavone Content of Selected Soyfoods*

(This information was distributed as part of a presentation at the American Dietetic Association 80th Annual Meeting and Exhibition, held October 27-30, 1997, in Boston, Massachusetts, by James W. Anderson, M.D. Professor of Medicine and Clinical Nutrition University of Kentucky, Lexington, KY. Phone 606-281-4954; fax 606-233-3832, e-mail: jwandersmd@aol.com.

Food Svg Size
g Serving Size
Measure Protein
g/100g Genistein
ug/g prot Total
Isoflavone
ug/g prot Isoflavone
mg/g prot mg/svg
Mature soybeans, uncooked 93 1/2 cup 37.0 1106 1891 5.1 175.6
Roasted soybeans 86 1/2 cup 35.2 1214 1942 5.5 167.0
Soy flour 21 1/4 cup 37.8 1185 2084 5.5 43.8
Textured soy protein, dry 30 1/4 cup 18.0 472 928 5.2 27.8
Green soybeans,uncooked 128 1/2 cup 16.6 301 548 3.3 70.1
Soy milk 228 1 cup 4.4 30 56 2.0 20.0
Tempeh, uncooked 114 4 oz 17.0 277 531 3.1 60.5
Tofu, uncooked 114 4 oz 15.8 209 336 2.1 38.3
Soy isolate, dry 28 1 oz 92.0 1100 2174 2.2 56.5
Soy concentrate, dry 28 1 oz 63.6 111 195 0.3 12.4



* These values were obtained from the published literature and from analyses we have obtained for selected products. The isoflavone content varies widely among soybean varieties and from product to product based on manufacturing process and source of soy protein. These estimates are our best calculation of isoflavone values provided by currently available products. The references listed below provide more detailed information about the different isoflavones in specific products.
 

squeegee

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What about mixing Soy isoflavones with capsaicin solution into your minoxidil everyday?? It seems really cheap.. I got everything on hand right now and can mix it up..My isoflavones is in powder format in a capsule shell 40%extract. How much should I put in 60 ml bottle?? For people that tried the liquid form of Capsaicin.. is there any color to it?? I got the supplements form but reddish color.. Why not trying it??
 

patagonia

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hey squeegee,

why not try it with liquid soy isoflavone caps?

I had the powder capsules as well but they have fillers and might make your minoxidil too gunky...?
 

squeegee

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I just put 5 Soy Isoflavones caps in powder and mixed it..Turn out good! I am still hesitating adding Cayenne in it! This thing smell and add a beautiful orange-red color to it! I don't know about the capsaicin in liquid form?? Does it have a color to it?? Kill sebum and dht at the same time..Kind of cool! I got vellus blond hair all over since I started minoxidil and Flutagel 3 weeks ago..Now I rub 1 dutasteride to my head, then minoxidil. I wait until everything is dry. Put some Flutagel..small dose at the end of my fingers...Going hard core! I want to kill that f*****g hair loss sh*t! still taking 1 mg of finasteride everyday..But taking other crap to adverse the gyno problems... it is a pain in the arse but fun to see the results from it..Just have to keep it going like that for a while.... :firing: hair loss.
 

goata007

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michael barry said:
Nosy as I am, I took Harold's suggestion to heart and tried to mix some curcumin with my shampoo. It made it (L'Oreal Vive) turn from white to a beige, but it really did seem to be soluble in the shampoo when I stirred it up in the palm of my hand. I used it with no problems. ..........................I also attempted to mix some curcumin (maybe 2-3% at most, with some cetaphil lotion). After half an hour, despite quite a bit of stirring, the small granules of curcumin are still visible in the now light beige cream. I'll wait overnight and see if the oils in the cream dissolve the curcumin, but Im kind of inclined to doubt it. The GOOD NEWS IS....................I think you can put a pinch of curcumin in your shampoo, mix it up with you finger until its consistent, and use. I dont know how long you might have to leave it in to absorb or if it will absorb though...................it would seem a curcumin topical should be helpful in AA though.

Isn't 500mg tumeric/curcumin pill everyday an easier/better alternative?




Another study:

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/con ... 8.004911v1

Curcumin Blocks the Activating of Androgen and Interlukin-6 on Prostate Specific Antigen Expression in Human Prostatic Carcinoma Cells

Curcumin, a naturally occurring compound, exhibits anti-cancer chemopreventive effects. We evaluated the effects and mechanisms of curcumin on the gene expression of prostate-specific antigen (PSA) in human androgen-sensitive prostatic carcinoma cells. LNCaP cells were used to determine the effect of curcumin on PSA expression. Quantitative PSA expressions were assessed using RT-PCR, enzyme linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA), and immunoblot assay. The modulation of androgen, interlukin-6 (IL-6) and prostate-derived Ets factor (PDEF) on PSA gene was identified by transient gene expression assay using a PSA reporter vector. The effect of curcumin on the activity of androgen receptor was evaluated using electrophoretic mobility shift assay (EMSA). Immunoblot assays, RT-PCR, and ELISA indicated that curcumin treatments blocked the stimulation of methyltrienolone (R1881) and IL-6 on PSA gene expression in LNCaP cells. The effects of curcumin appear to be mediated via the androgen response element of PSA gene. Results from immunoblot assay and EMSA revealed the modulation of curcumin on the expression of androgen receptor and androgen receptor binding activity on androgen response element of PSA gene. Although overexpression of PDEF dramatically enhanced PSA gene expression, the results of immunoblot assays and transient reporter assays indicated that curcumin treatments did not affect the gene expression of PDEF. Curcumin inhibits R1881- and IL-6-mediated expression of PSA gene expression in LNCaP cells through the downregulation of the expression and activity of androgen receptor.

Why aren't more people taking 500mg oral turmeric/curcumin regularly?? It does downregular the expression/activity of androgen receptor.
 

harold

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goata007 said:
Why aren't more people taking 500mg oral turmeric/curcumin regularly?? It does downregular the expression/activity of androgen receptor.

Well for me it comes down to 2 reasons. Firstly if curcumin does have such an effect after oral consumption then that is not something that I would want for the same reason that I am no longer taking finasteride or anything like that - I dont want any systemic antiandrogenic effects. If you are the sort of person who is taking dutasteride etc and is looking for still more androgen blockade then that might be a viable tactic. Secondly there is the fact that curcumin is a delicate antioxidant in even the best conditions and the digestive tract is a rough place. Which is probably why dietary consumption of tumeric does not have a profound effect on the prostate, hair, reproductive organs etc as far as I know. I think topical application is the only way to get any effect. Which is a shame in one sense cos anything topical is always a hassle to some degree but not so much in another because if it had systemic effects then I would be trying to avoid it.
hh
 

purecontrol

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harold said:
goata007 said:
Why aren't more people taking 500mg oral turmeric/curcumin regularly?? It does downregular the expression/activity of androgen receptor.

Well for me it comes down to 2 reasons. Firstly if curcumin does have such an effect after oral consumption then that is not something that I would want for the same reason that I am no longer taking finasteride or anything like that - I dont want any systemic antiandrogenic effects. If you are the sort of person who is taking dutasteride etc and is looking for still more androgen blockade then that might be a viable tactic. Secondly there is the fact that curcumin is a delicate antioxidant in even the best conditions and the digestive tract is a rough place. Which is probably why dietary consumption of tumeric does not have a profound effect on the prostate, hair, reproductive organs etc as far as I know. I think topical application is the only way to get any effect. Which is a shame in one sense cos anything topical is always a hassle to some degree but not so much in another because if it had systemic effects then I would be trying to avoid it.
hh

It is not going to turn you into a women, the way it acts as for the androgen receptor is much much different than that of anything else out there. Basicly what it does protect the cell and keep it healthy and strong from inflamtion and oxidants, this lowers the amount of Androgen recepots needed.


People have got to wake up and understand the reason why some people and over time why some people become to have more and more androgen receptor and receptors thta are far more sensative.

All this inflamtion etc that causes oxidation is litterally destroying the cell, in an attempt to fight off these effects your body unable to produce proper anti-oxidants due to a sh*t life stryle and/or sh*t genetics does the only thing left increase IGF, androgen, androgen receptors, etc

As for curcamin not working orally, that has already been addressed with bioperine.


For all of these supplements you should take them orally and some should be used topically and orally.

The study is proof and there are many others. Life is about controling oxidation, what happens when your body can no longer proper deal with that oxidation.
 

goata007

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harold said:
goata007 said:
Why aren't more people taking 500mg oral turmeric/curcumin regularly?? It does downregular the expression/activity of androgen receptor.

Well for me it comes down to 2 reasons. Firstly if curcumin does have such an effect after oral consumption then that is not something that I would want for the same reason that I am no longer taking finasteride or anything like that - I dont want any systemic antiandrogenic effects. If you are the sort of person who is taking dutasteride etc and is looking for still more androgen blockade then that might be a viable tactic. Secondly there is the fact that curcumin is a delicate antioxidant in even the best conditions and the digestive tract is a rough place. Which is probably why dietary consumption of tumeric does not have a profound effect on the prostate, hair, reproductive organs etc as far as I know. I think topical application is the only way to get any effect. Which is a shame in one sense cos anything topical is always a hassle to some degree but not so much in another because if it had systemic effects then I would be trying to avoid it.
hh

I think there is a BIG difference in the way Curcumin & finasteride act to lessen the effect of androgens and also create side effects. Finasteride essentially stops converstion of testosterone to DHT, essentially creating an imbalance of hormones in your body and you end up with high testosterone. In some cases, this excess testosterone, unable to convert to DHT, is converted into estrogen leading to gyno, probably the cause of brain fog as well. I strongly believe this imbalance is the reason why most people experience side effects with finas.

As of curcumin, it degrades androgen receptor so essentially leaves the hormones in your body at the same levels. Therefore, it shouldn't theoretically be able to cause gyno, brain fog etc etc. Now the only side effect left is sexual ones, Since curcumin doesn't really disturb hormone levels in the body, again it shouldn't lead to any permanent side effects. If someone experiences sexual sides they could easily lessen the dosage OR stop the drug altogether a day or two before expecting sexual activity. Because, the androgen receptors are continously being recycled in our bodies and curcumin Does Not have any permanent effect (according to all the information I've found), so getting off of curcumin should quickly restore ones sexual health.

Another interesting info I found out about turmeric/curcumin is that a lot of prostate cancer patients are taking this supplement, as it lessens their symptoms or what not. So even from a prostate health point-of-view this supplement looks quite promising. Combine that with the anti-oxidant effects of curcumin, I really don't understand why it's not being discussed on hairloss forums more.

Just remembered there was a guy who briefly posted on this site and was advocating less masturbation, as it got rid of his scalp irritation. He also started curcumin at the same time BUT believed that it was less sexual activity that was responsible for NO scalp irritation anymore. I think it WAS curcumin that knocked a few receptors in his scalp & horny bits of the body and thats why he successfully reduced his sexual activity & scalp irritation. What do you guys think??
 

bornthisway

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I skipped over the entire thread for lack of time but I think people are pretty unreliable when describing sexual endeavors. Look for repeated results and not how someone is feeling on say a whim.. people are pretty cyclic as are habits and we're prone to confusing/misunderstanding ourselves. Curcumin applied to the hair did increase volume for me at least. I would need to use it topically for a month or two to determine how effective it was if any at stopping hair loss, hair growth was not something I encountered but I used it for too short a period. If I can make it more pleasant and easier to wear overnight I'll probably give it a go.
 

harold

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purecontrol said:
It is not going to turn you into a women, the way it acts as for the androgen receptor is much much different than that of anything else out there. Basicly what it does protect the cell and keep it healthy and strong from inflamtion and oxidants, this lowers the amount of Androgen recepots needed.

Can you give some evidence to support this? Specifically this claim "protect the cell and keep it healthy and strong from inflamtion and oxidants, this lowers the amount of Androgen recepots needed."

People have got to wake up and understand the reason why some people and over time why some people become to have more and more androgen receptor and receptors thta are far more sensative.

All this inflamtion etc that causes oxidation is litterally destroying the cell, in an attempt to fight off these effects your body unable to produce proper anti-oxidants due to a sh*t life stryle and/or sh*t genetics does the only thing left increase IGF, androgen, androgen receptors, etc

I have never seen any evidence that may substantiate any of these claims. If anything androgen interaction with the receptor has been shown to increase oxidative effects and these oxidative effects may serve as siganls to negative growth regulators or make a more direct contribution to the destruction of follicles by damaging them and leading to apoptosis.

As for curcamin not working orally, that has already been addressed with bioperine.


For all of these supplements you should take them orally and some should be used topically and orally.

The study is proof and there are many others. Life is about controling oxidation, what happens when your body can no longer proper deal with that oxidation.
 

harold

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goata007 said:
I think there is a BIG difference in the way Curcumin & finasteride act to lessen the effect of androgens and also create side effects. Finasteride essentially stops converstion of testosterone to DHT, essentially creating an imbalance of hormones in your body and you end up with high testosterone. In some cases, this excess testosterone, unable to convert to DHT, is converted into estrogen leading to gyno, probably the cause of brain fog as well. I strongly believe this imbalance is the reason why most people experience side effects with finas.

I think elevated estrogen or possibly more specifically an altered estrogen to androgen ratio is definitely implicated in gyno but I dont think it plays much of a role in the other sexual sides that people report. A lot have people including myself have mucked around with aromatase inhibitors while on finasteride and I havent heard many if any reports of it really making a difference. I didnt find that it helped which would indicate that it is an insufficiency of androgenic stimuli in the form of DHT that is the culprit. In other words just as testosterone doesnt work as well as DHT in making you bald testosterone doesnt work as well as DHT in keeping everything functioning well.

As of curcumin, it degrades androgen receptor so essentially leaves the hormones in your body at the same levels. Therefore, it shouldn't theoretically be able to cause gyno, brain fog etc etc. Now the only side effect left is sexual ones, Since curcumin doesn't really disturb hormone levels in the body, again it shouldn't lead to any permanent side effects. If someone experiences sexual sides they could easily lessen the dosage OR stop the drug altogether a day or two before expecting sexual activity. Because, the androgen receptors are continously being recycled in our bodies and curcumin Does Not have any permanent effect (according to all the information I've found), so getting off of curcumin should quickly restore ones sexual health.

A few points - firstly it doesnt matter how much hormones you have in your body if they are unable to dock to a receptor and produce their desirable and undesirable effects. So the fact that curcumin might leave hormonal levels uneffected is really a cosmetic difference IMO. Secondly hormonal production is regulated by hormaonal levels which are detected throught receptors. So if you are also degarding the receptors in the HPTA that detect testosterone or more specifically DHT you are going to shift that balance of hormones as the body thinks their is not enough androgens there. Lessening the dose or stopping it altogether pretty much leaves you back where you began with regards to the hair and lastly trying to anticipate sexual events 2 days or so in advance is not a lot of fun.
Basically I dont think that oral curcumin - if effective - would be significantly different to any other systemic anti-androgenic regime for hairloss.
hh

Another interesting info I found out about turmeric/curcumin is that a lot of prostate cancer patients are taking this supplement, as it lessens their symptoms or what not. So even from a prostate health point-of-view this supplement looks quite promising. Combine that with the anti-oxidant effects of curcumin, I really don't understand why it's not being discussed on hairloss forums more.

Just remembered there was a guy who briefly posted on this site and was advocating less masturbation, as it got rid of his scalp irritation. He also started curcumin at the same time BUT believed that it was less sexual activity that was responsible for NO scalp irritation anymore. I think it WAS curcumin that knocked a few receptors in his scalp & horny bits of the body and thats why he successfully reduced his sexual activity & scalp irritation. What do you guys think??
 

larry27

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