Cautious & safe way to start Propecia/Finasteride...........

[Blackber]

I've thickened the temples a little using 0.5-0.625 mg EOD personally. So yes, anything more than and including 0.2 mg ED should be enough.

There is no 'safe' dose to take. I guess you could take bigger doses intermittently instead if you're worried, like I do.

Nice results!

How long have you been taking it?

Are you using anything else?

Any side effects?

 

[Ventures]

How old are you xRedStarx ? And how aggressive is your hair loss, it seams you haven't receded too much, and your hair in front is quite thick. D you have diffuse hair loss ?

If 0.25 mg dose is really enough to block all 5-ard-II in average male, then it wouldn't be wise to use greater doses because there is always a possibility that unused finasteride molecules bind or adhere to other substrates/enzymes and cause additional impact on hormonal metabolism. We don not know if finasteride has low, medium affinity towards other, enzymes, substances in human body beside 5-ard-II. It is well know it is selective inhibitor of 5-ard-II, but who knows if it can block something which has similar electro-chemical signature(structure).


Finasteride is a chemically engineered substance, and it is excreted in the liver. It would be better to consume small doses to protect liver and it's functions. And in this hair loss forum and other, we haven't discussed too much about how finasteride affects liver. In my country doctors who prescribe finasteride for Androgenetic Alopecia or BPH advise to check for elevated liver enzymes which may indicate inflammation or damage to cells in the liver.

 

[Blackber]

I've thickened the temples a little using 0.5-0.625 mg EOD personally. So yes, anything more than and including 0.2 mg ED should be enough.

There is no 'safe' dose to take. I guess you could take bigger doses intermittently instead if you're worried, like I do.

How old are you xRedStarx ? And how aggressive is your hair loss, it seams you haven't receded too much, and your hair in front is quite thick. D you have diffuse hair loss ?

If 0.25 mg dose is really enough to block all 5-ard-II in average male, then it wouldn't be wise to use greater doses because there is always a possibility that unused finasteride molecules bind or adhere to other substrates/enzymes and cause additional impact on hormonal metabolism. We don not know if finasteride has low, medium affinity towards other, enzymes, substances in human body beside 5-ard-II. It is well know it is selective inhibitor of 5-ard-II, but who knows if it can block something which has similar electro-chemical signature(structure).


Finasteride is a chemically engineered substance, and it is excreted in the liver. It would be better to consume small doses to protect liver and it's functions. And in this hair loss forum and other, we haven't discussed too much about how finasteride affects liver. In my country doctors who prescribe finasteride for Androgenetic Alopecia or BPH advise to check for elevated liver enzymes which may indicate inflammation or damage to cells in the liver.

Agreed.

The more research I do the more likely I am to take .50mgs as a maximum dosage daily.

It will be cheaper and there is no sense taking more than needed regardless if what studies dictate.

 

[xRedStaRx]

How old are you xRedStarx ? And how aggressive is your hair loss, it seams you haven't receded too much, and your hair in front is quite thick. D you have diffuse hair loss ?

If 0.25 mg dose is really enough to block all 5-ard-II in average male, then it wouldn't be wise to use greater doses because there is always a possibility that unused finasteride molecules bind or adhere to other substrates/enzymes and cause additional impact on hormonal metabolism. We don not know if finasteride has low, medium affinity towards other, enzymes, substances in human body beside 5-ard-II. It is well know it is selective inhibitor of 5-ard-II, but who knows if it can block something which has similar electro-chemical signature(structure).


Finasteride is a chemically engineered substance, and it is excreted in the liver. It would be better to consume small doses to protect liver and it's functions. And in this hair loss forum and other, we haven't discussed too much about how finasteride affects liver. In my country doctors who prescribe finasteride for Androgenetic Alopecia or BPH advise to check for elevated liver enzymes which may indicate inflammation or damage to cells in the liver.

Just turned 24. I caught it somewhat early last October approximately, just before a Norwood 2. Now I'm hovering between a Norwood 1-2, the hairline including temples are still a little thin and sparse compared to the rest, crown has seen the biggest improvement for me so far. Overall, I have to be grateful if I can maintain what I have for 5-10 years.

Finasteride is a potent selective inhibitior of 5-AR enzymes type II & III, with much less affinity for type I enzymes. There are no possibilities for finasteride to do otherwise.

Finasteride can increase liver enzymes in some individuals, it's preferable to do checkups every now and then. Personally, I'm healthy with no history of liver problems, nor do I drink. I also take a lot less of finasteride than prescribed. Besides, a fraction of a milligram will unlikely damage a two kilogram organ.

 

[Blackber]

I've thickened the temples a little using 0.5-0.625 mg EOD personally. So yes, anything more than and including 0.2 mg ED should be enough.

There is no 'safe' dose to take. I guess you could take bigger doses intermittently instead if you're worried, like I do.

Just turned 24. I caught it somewhat early last October approximately, just before a Norwood 2. Now I'm hovering between a Norwood 1-2, the hairline including temples are still a little thin and sparse compared to the rest, crown has seen the biggest improvement for me so far. Overall, I have to be grateful if I can maintain what I have for 5-10 years.

Finasteride is a potent selective inhibitior of 5-AR enzymes type II & III, with much less affinity for type I enzymes. There are no possibilities for finasteride to do otherwise.

Finasteride can increase liver enzymes in some individuals, it's preferable to do checkups every now and then. Personally, I'm healthy with no history of liver problems, nor do I drink. I also take a lot less of finasteride than prescribed. Besides, a fraction of a milligram will unlikely damage a two kilogram organ.

Have you done any research on CB-03-01?

If so, what's your opinion?

 

[zzzzz]

Just turned 24. I caught it somewhat early last October approximately, just before a Norwood 2. Now I'm hovering between a Norwood 1-2, the hairline including temples are still a little thin and sparse compared to the rest, crown has seen the biggest improvement for me so far. Overall, I have to be grateful if I can maintain what I have for 5-10 years.

Finasteride is a potent selective inhibitior of 5-AR enzymes type II & III, with much less affinity for type I enzymes. There are no possibilities for finasteride to do otherwise.

Finasteride can increase liver enzymes in some individuals, it's preferable to do checkups every now and then. Personally, I'm healthy with no history of liver problems, nor do I drink. I also take a lot less of finasteride than prescribed. Besides, a fraction of a milligram will unlikely damage a two kilogram organ.

you said you think type 1 plays a very small role in hairloss. Do you think regular testosterone is the same?

 

[Ventures]

xRedStarX,

For your luck it seems you do not suffer aggressive form of hair loss, so low doses of finasteride can help. Can you post images of your hair from another angles, to see how thick is your hair in NW6 region (including Vertex), and what does look your hair from top and front, yu can send PM if you do not post it for public audience. Maybe you are just forming a mature hairline (which probably includes nw1 - nw2 hairline) I mean you do not suffer very rapid male pattern baldness like fred, who was NW5 in 24 or guy who only has 19 and already has whole top of head affected.

 

[xRedStaRx]

you said you think type 1 plays a very small role in hairloss. Do you think regular testosterone is the same?

If not less. Both play almost insignificant roles in hair loss.

xRedStarX,

For your luck it seems you do not suffer aggressive form of hair loss, so low doses of finasteride can help. Can you post images of your hair from another angles, to see how thick is your hair in NW6 region (including Vertex), and what does look your hair from top and front, yu can send PM if you do not post it for public audience. Maybe you are just forming a mature hairline (which probably includes nw1 - nw2 hairline) I mean you do not suffer very rapid male pattern baldness like fred, who was NW5 in 24 or guy who only has 19 and already has whole top of head affected.

I wasn't balding aggressively, but it picked up quite fast going from a Norwood 1 to almost a 2 in two years or so. Would have been going to a Norwood 3 by now I'm sure. I'm probably predisposed towards a Norwood 5-6 judging family history. Pictures are from October to April.


Vertex:

Hairline:

 

[Blackber]

I'm on my third day of .25mg finasteride and have been experiencing some dull headaches that come and go, but no other sides so far.

I'm hoping the headaches are just my body adjusting.

If they persist I might switch to dosages every other day. You seem to have gotten good results using it EOD. Do you use anything else?

We are of similar age and similar male pattern baldness aggressiveness.

 

[zzzzz]

I'm on my third day of .25mg finasteride and have been experiencing some dull headaches that come and go, but no other sides so far.

I'm hoping the headaches are just my body adjusting.

If they persist I might switch to dosages every other day. You seem to have gotten good results using it EOD. Do you use anything else?

We are of similar age and similar male pattern baldness aggressiveness.

There is so many causes to headaches, and it is such a common thing. You seem awfully certain that is must be because of the finasteride

 

[xRedStaRx]

Nice results!

How long have you been taking it?

Are you using anything else?

Any side effects?

9-10 months.

Ketoconazole 2% shampoo

Nothing huge. Erections may be a little less full if I'm not really feeling it. Less ejaculate. Calmer in general. Testicular ache first month.

Have you done any research on CB-03-01?

If so, what's your opinion?

A good topical AA. But I'm not a fan of topicals.

 

[Ventures]

XredStar, it seems you don't have a lot of body hair on chest, arms, back ?

There are anecdotal reports that finasteride users who have a lot of body hair have success with finasteride and they don't suffer sides. In your opinion is there some kind of relation between body hair and male pattern baldness ? I know we have all scenarios, but presence of body hair maybe means you have over expression of DHT in your skin .



And another question, I see your vertex has thickened and filled in . Why do finasteride and dutasteride work very well on vertex regrowth unlike regrowth of frontal region (temples) ?

 

[xRedStaRx]

XredStar, it seems you don't have a lot of body hair on chest, arms, back ?

There are anecdotal reports that finasteride users who have a lot of body hair have success with finasteride and they don't suffer sides. In your opinion is there some kind of relation between body hair and male pattern baldness ? I know we have all scenarios, but presence of body hair maybe means you have over expression of DHT in your skin .



And another question, I see your vertex has thickened and filled in . Why do finasteride and dutasteride work very well on vertex regrowth unlike regrowth of frontal region (temples) ?

It's true, I don't. But body hair has to do with your genetic phenotype more than anything really. It's rarely a cause of high or low DHT, especially cross-racial. The biggest indicator for high DHT was leg hair with a correlation of 0.19, although it was still not that significant.

There were no studies showing this as far as I'm aware, although I do remember something of this context with regards to finasteride side effects.

Because the vertex has normally more hair density per unit area, so it's easier to see improvements there than otherwise. The temples and hairline are not that thick when virtually everyone starts treatment. But finasteride and dutasteride work equally well on all scalp hair, mind you.

 

[Blackber]

There is so many causes to headaches, and it is such a common thing. You seem awfully certain that is must be because of the finasteride

I'm not being pessimistic or saying it's definitely from the finasteride, but I know my body pretty well and it's extremely unusual for me to get headaches especially ones that stay around for longer periods of time.

Trust me I hope the finasteride works for me and I'm not giving up just yet it may be my body just adjusting to it or it may be from something completely different like you said, only time with tell.

- - - Updated - - -

9-10 months.

Ketoconazole 2% shampoo

Nothing huge. Erections may be a little less full if I'm not really feeling it. Less ejaculate. Calmer in general. Testicular ache first month.



A good topical AA. But I'm not a fan of topicals.

Thanks for the input!

 

[mosd]

redstarx, are u still having this sides? Or only in beginning?

 

[xRedStaRx]

redstarx, are u still having this sides? Or only in beginning?

Testicular ache in the beginning.

I feel fine now so far.

 

[Ventures]

Have you noticed lack of body hair in one twin: http://www.twinshairloss.com/hair-loss-gallery.htm Notice how dutasteride twin has less hairy arms - interesting and you can see clearly twin which hasn't consume dutasteride has veins on his arms opposite to his brother. dutasteride obviously affected that ... What do you think, can DHT inhibitors, even used after 18, affect body hair and appearance of veins and skin ?

Obviously, if you have a lot of body hair you have high DHT expression in skin, but how sensitive is your scalp hair to androgens is what matters.
I asked this questions to one member on this forum, and here are his answers:

Originally Posted by Ventures
Then, why older people who obviously have very significant drop in T level, have lot of body hair and severe hair loss.

Because body hair forms over time and not suddenly when you get old. And, unless its on the scalp, follicles that once formed don't go away again when your T (and thus DHT) levels drop.

Originally Posted by Ventures
After all, only 5 to maximum 10 % of T is converted to DHT.

As I said before, these percentages have only very limited useful implications.

Originally Posted by Ventures
In study posted by Bryan which measured testosterone and DHT levels in the blood before-and-after castration, results showed that DHT dropped by an amount which was very similar to what finasteride users get.

Which is, by the way, not a good thing when you think about it. If you have such high systemic inhibition, as high as in a castrate, that will obviously impair your sexual organs.

Originally Posted by Ventures
And in your opinion local DHT is more responsible for male pattern baldness and body hair than systemic ? Someone who has a lot of body hair but not a sign of scalp hair loss (like Pierce Brosnan) might have high DHT activity in parts of body covered by body hair (like chest, abdomen) but very low DHT activity in his scalp. So in some parts of skin (body) you might have very high DHT production and metabolism, and in other parts (like scalp) low DHT activity ?

Yes, definitely. I for one have average body hair, but still very fast and aggressive hair loss.
There will of course be a correlation between systemic T and local DHT, probably a linear one, but translation is probably not 1:1 and the local translation is determined by the local amount of 5aR.

Originally Posted by Ventures
And I do not know what is your knowledge towards this to give any informed statement, but what are the reasons, in your opinion, why some Caucasians have body hair and do not have male pattern baldness, and in opposite scenario some are totally hairless all over the body, but are NW7 on Norwood scale. Is local DHT activity in chest and scalp which affects you would have body hair and hair loss, respectively. Or simple we can blame our genes which determine how androgen sensitive our follicles are, both body hair and scalp hair follicles.

Yes, I'm pretty sure of that. How else could you explain this? Body hair is only an indication of T levels and only of the local DHT levels, but there is no interdependence between local 5aR levels of, e.g., chest and scalp. Local DHT levels are only correlated because the T level is systemically determined, so high T will lead to higher DHT all over the body, but the specific level of DHT in each spot will only be determined by the local 5aR expression.

I'll give some examples to explain, but with completely made up numbers.

Man 1, no Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness (and hence normal 5aR all over), normal T.
T: 100
DHT scalp: 3
DHT chest: 3
DHT legs: 3

Man 2, no Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness (and hence normal 5aR all over), elevated T
T: 130
DHT scalp: 4
DHT chest: 4
DHT legs: 4

Man 3, with Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness (meaning high 5aR but only in scalp), normal T
T: 100
DHT scalp: 5
DHT chest: 3
DHT legs: 3

Man 4, with Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness (meaning high 5aR but only in scalp), elevated T
T: 130
DHT scalp: 7
DHT chest: 4
DHT legs: 4

Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness will mean that you will have extraordinarily high conversion of T to DHT, but only in your scalp. High T levels will lead to equally elevated levels of DHT conversion all over your body, while Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness will lead to extremely elevated DHT levels. If you don't have Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness, higher T levels will lead to higher DHT levels all over (and thus more chest, arm and leg hair), but not extreme DHT levels in your scalp.

Originally Posted by Ventures
I assume when it comes to male pattern baldness, you would agree it is combination of AR sensitivity and local DHT activity in scalp ?

Yes.

 

[xRedStaRx]

Have you noticed lack of body hair in one twin: http://www.twinshairloss.com/hair-loss-gallery.htm Notice how dutasteride twin has less hairy arms - interesting and you can see clearly twin which hasn't consume dutasteride has veins on his arms opposite to his brother. dutasteride obviously affected that ... What do you think, can DHT inhibitors, even used after 18, affect body hair and appearance of veins and skin ?

Obviously, if you have a lot of body hair you have high DHT expression in skin, but how sensitive is your scalp hair to androgens is what matters.
I asked this questions to one member on this forum, and here are his answers:

If taken early enough, dutasteride can delay growth of body hair due to absence of DHT. Veins have to do with subcutaneous adipose tissue, DHT is known to burn fat, so that might be it.

That guy is more or less correct on most of these things. Mind giving me the link for the discussion?

 

[Ventures]

Regarding body hair and male pattern baldness correlation.

Based on my knowledge, It all depends how sensitive your hair follicles and body hair follicles are to DHT and other androgens. And I heard other genes except AR gene located on X chromosome determine how your body hair react to certain levels of androgen hormones.

I suppose someone who has low sensitive body hair do not develop hairy chest, legs, back etc, but that same person may develop male pattern baldness because he has sensitive scalp hair. On the other hand, we know there are many bald persons around who have no body hair. They probably have very sensitive scalp hair, and sensitivity of their body hair is much less or they have particularly low levels of DHT which is not enough to turn their vellus body follicles to terminal stage. So, as far as I can understand it all depends on sensitivity of your scalp and body hair.

You can see dozens of examples among celebrities, football players, actors. Vladimir Klicko has no body hair (I don't know if he shaves his body) but I doubt he has low levels of circulating T and DHT. So presence of chest or back hair is maybe not good sign, but only if you have susceptible scalp hair. But very very few of them have problems with hair on abdomen, back or chest. In most individuals chest and back are less sensitive.


So answers to questions:

- Are some people just prone to developing more body hair from the same amount of DHT? (like people having hair on their head more or less susceptible to DHT damage)
Probably yes. We all know there are people who have a lot of body hair and have NW0 hairline. So, I suppose that is clue that sensitivity of body and scalp hair can vary.


- Can someone have body hair that is very receptive to DHT (making it grow), but have follicles on their head that are less receptive to DHT (damage)?
Yes, he can.

Another interesting observation is some males develop hair on chest, but they don't have, even not little, hair on legs, arms or legs. So, distribution of body hair is determined by genetic factor. You first develop body hair on parts of body which are more sensitive or receptice to T and DHT. In most people those areas are legs, arms, pubic and etc. During puberty, males usually get hair on legs before other parts. Legs, arms, pubic, armpit are areas which are more receptive to DHT in the majority of people. And if you look to females, they also develop hair in that areas. As we know a lot of ladies have to shave their legs, some even have hairy arms.

Do you agree with that, xredstarx

 

[xRedStaRx]

Regarding body hair and male pattern baldness correlation.



Do you agree with that, xredstarx

I believe I made a comment on the correlation between DHT and body hair before.

The biggest indicator to high serum DHT was leg hair. Body hair in general has more to do with your genetic phenotype, and less so on hormones. So is male pattern baldness for the most part. The density distribution and bio-locations of 5-AR enzymes and ARs on hair follicles are the biggest predictors for body hair and male pattern baldness, to my knowledge.