Casodex instead of flutamide?

[Newbaldy84]

damn I have to change my regimen which has been working very good but I am starting to worry. Ive been on finasteride for the past 2 years been on fluridil which I later replaced with topical flutamide. Anyway I quit finasteride cuz I couldn't stan my body hair changing to limp lifeless wiskers but I still use flutamide. I think I will have to discontinue that as well because I already had two flu like episoded whe I was vomiting and had symptoms raleted to use of flutamide. I dont want to damage my liver. So I am stopping flutamide and getting back on fluridil which worker great at stopping my hair loss as to what else add Ive been thinking about Casodex which is safet than flutamide and works just as well if not better. Have you heard anything about casodex? I would use it at topical in alcohol bace just like flutamide. I just don't want to abuse my liver no more. I am pretty sure those two flu like symptoms were caused by flutamide.

 

[el_duterino]

i thought about that too. the big problem is that Casodex has a very long serum half life, of about 5 DAYS ..since a small percentage will be systemically absorbed each time you use it, this amount builds up into the body until you get the heavy anti-androgenic side effects: no libido, tiredeness, brain fog, urination control problems etc..
And once those side appear..it is going to take a week or more to dissapear after you stop casodex, again due to its long half life.

flutamide half-life is only about 7 hours, thats a lot more "manageable" for hair-loss. even if sides appear, stopping the drug for 2-3 days gets you back to square one.

 

[Newbaldy84]

oh I understand. I know you use flutamide. Aren't you scared that you may be slowly damaging your liver? Even if you use small amounts they are still metabolized in liver. I use flutamide from genhair and I spray quite a lot maybe 6-7 sprays. I was using flutagel before and was using it on my scalp and then I started using it on my beard and it reduced my beard so quickly and a LOT! that's when I knew flutamide is serious anti androgen. But I was stupid. I was smearing flutagel on my beard like it was face cream and after 2 weeks I just woke up and felt like sh*t. vomiting neseua no apetite. I lost like 10 pounds. And now the same thing. I just recovered from that but I still sometimes hear growling in my stomach at night but it's going away slowly. I doubt that these were real stomach flues and had nothing to do with flutamide, I think that was caused by flutamide. That sucks cuz it's extremely effective but liver is much more important to me. I had a good succes with fluridil so I am going back to that and see where it takes me. I ordered Ru a month ago but just found down that it was a scam so I am quite dissapointed. RU would be perfect but I don't want to go throug whole proces of buying than making your own solution and it cost 400$.

 

[el_duterino]

i never had liver or stomach related issues on flutamide or any other drugs. you can get your liver tested to find out more.

but i had the andro sides on flutamide, yes. no libido, feeling always sleepy etc.. it stopped when i reduced the amount.

fluridil is good stuff. safe, no sides at all. i used 4 times the recommended amount of fluridil for 2 months and had no issues. i now use 2 ampules a day because i have long hair at the top. and i use flutamide but JUST A LITTLE BIT at the key areas such as the hairline. flutamide is stronger than fluridil but it cannot be used in large amounts over a long time.

 

[montrose]

anyone still using casodex? I've read that it has less side effects than flutamide.

 

[baldinglikeamofo]

Casodex wont work because it wont penetrate your skin. Its just as useless as spironolactone. Flutamide is the only one that penetrates your skin.

However, if you do try it, please report back with your results.

 

[blaze]

how do you know casodex doesnt penetrate the skin? I have never seen anyone do a study on topical casodex.

spironolactone definitely does. Its just a very weak antiandrogen.

 

[Bryan]

how do you know casodex doesnt penetrate the skin? I have never seen anyone do a study on topical casodex.

Neither have I, and I was wondering the same thing about why "baldinglikeamofo" would say that. Baldinglikeamofo, tell us where you supposedly got that info! :dunno:

 

[Ende]

Which drug isn't possible to deliver through the skin...?

 

[el_duterino]

Bicalutamide (Casodex) has a molecular weight of 430 so it could be able to barely pass the top layer of the skin because of the "500 rule".

But again, like I wrote many times this molecule cannot be considered as a valid male pattern baldness candidate drug because of its very long serum half life of 5 days. It will accumulate in blood after a few days or weeks.

5 days is Very good if you want to fight prostate cancer effectively but very bad if you are a healthy, young guy who just wants hair in order to get laid.

A powerful androgen antagonist such as Bicalutamide or flutamide will produce various androgenic side effects that are a lot stronger than finasteride or dutasteride..blocking both T and DHT.

I did use flutamide myself and do appreciate RU now.

Flutamide is one of the drugs which are given to sex offenders..look it up on google.

 

[Hoppi]

So, am I right in saying that ALL these chemicals applied topically are stronger than topical spironolactone? I always thought spironolactone at least compared to flutamide, but it seems here that there is a considerable distance between the two?

I am weighing up what combo of Fluridil, spironolactone and minoxidil to use, and at the moment am veering towards just using Eucapil and minoxidil, if spironolactone doesn't seem worth the effort...

 

[el_duterino]

fluridil is weak and so is spironolactone..flutamide is stronger than fluridil but RU is the strongest of all.

fluridil only real advantage is a total lack of side effects no matter how much you use because its designed to break down in blood.

But I did use 4 ampules a day and it did not even compare to 50mg of RU

and four ampules of fluridil is $8 while 50mg of RU is $2...

 

[baldinglikeamofo]

I disagree with the statement that spironolactone is a weak antiandrogen. Is not weak at all, it just doesnt penetrate your skin because its too big. You cant call it weak when you didnt give it a chance! Try taking it orally, it will do wonders for your hair!!! Now will you still call it weak?

Test my theory with casodex, I can possibly be wrong. Just let us know how it goes.

 

[el_duterino]

spironolactone has a molecular weight of 416 therefore it can penetrate the skin.

Since RU is readily available and reasonably priced, using an internal anti-androgen just for hairloss is pure non-sense. No one will be able to continue beyond a few months at most due to side effects.

 

[Bryan]

So, am I right in saying that ALL these chemicals applied topically are stronger than topical spironolactone?

The greatest hamster flank-organ suppression I've seen from the application of topical spironolactone (and not from being injected under the skin, or given orally) is only on the order of about 30% or so, if I remember correctly. The greatest sebaceous gland reduction I've seen from topical RU58841, on the other hand, is about 60% or so, which is about TWICE as much. The greatest I've seen from topical flutamide on rats is also on the order of about 60% or so. The very serious problem with the topical flutamide, though, is that the effect appeared to be exclusively from the systemic absorption of the drug.

So at least topical spironolactone _does_ have that one big advantage over topical flutamide: it isn't absorbed systemically, even though it doesn't have the overall effectiveness of flutamide. RU58841 appears to be the best of both worlds: it's appears to be as effective as (systemic) flutamide, but isn't absorbed systemically (neither is topical spironolactone).

I always thought spironolactone at least compared to flutamide, but it seems here that there is a considerable distance between the two?

It isn't absorbed systemically like topical flutamide, but it's not as generally effective as flutamide (at least in rodents like hamsters and rats).

 

[Bryan]

I disagree with the statement that spironolactone is a weak antiandrogen. Is not weak at all, it just doesnt penetrate your skin because its too big. You cant call it weak when you didnt give it a chance! Try taking it orally, it will do wonders for your hair!!! Now will you still call it weak?

See my post just above. Topical spironolactone had about HALF the effect of flutamide and RU58841 in tests with laboratory animals.

Test my theory with casodex, I can possibly be wrong. Just let us know how it goes.

We asked you specifically: where did you get the idea that topical casodex doesn't work? I'm not aware of any such studies that have been done with that drug!

 

[Ende]

RU58841 appears to be the best of both worlds: it's appears to be as effective as (systemic) flutamide, but isn't absorbed systemically (neither is topical spironolactone).

Systemic absorption and side effects are possible with RU58841 if you overdose. I know that from personal experience. It includes liver damage and interference with the HPTA, like every other anti-androgen which doesn't metabolize into a safe compound. According to el_duterino, it metabolizes into two compounds, one of which is an anti-androgen.

 

[Bryan]

Systemic absorption and side effects are possible with RU58841 if you overdose.

Sure, that may be possible from a theoretical standpoint, but it appears to be very safe in actuality. I haven't seen any RU58841 study with laboratory animals which had problems from systemic absorption.

 

[Ende]

They used up to 25 mg for each application. It seems to be my threshold for "brain fog". You think they pushed the dose as far as possible, with a little safety margin in relation to systemic absorption, and set the dose to 25 mg?

While you're available; I'm currently under the impression that you don't need anymore PG in a vehicle, than 10% PG for every % of the drug in a solution. Rogaine 5%; (1 ml per application) 50 mg minoxidil - 50% PG. RU58841 5% which they used in at least one animal study (0.5 ml per application) 25 mg - 50% PG. I've seen a study on minoxidil too, where they made a 2% solution consisting of ethanolg:water (60:20:20) with the intention of using only enough PG to support the drug. Do you have any thoughts about this?

 

[Rabid]

I disagree with the statement that spironolactone is a weak antiandrogen. Is not weak at all, it just doesnt penetrate your skin because its too big. You cant call it weak when you didnt give it a chance! Try taking it orally, it will do wonders for your hair!!!

Oral spironolactone could be at least twice as effective as topical (I'm on oral 100 mg), which means it could be at least as effective as RU based on those flank studies. This is just of interest to those who everything including RU is not working. Anyone else obviously has no need to consider it. The reason is simple: oral can exert so many more effects on various important systemic androgen pathways than topical, in addition to the problems with absorbing topical.

http://www.androgeneticalopecia.com...nolactone-antiandrogen-pattern-baldness.shtml

Spironolactone is a potent antiandrogen...

However, the action of Spironolactone is directed at both decreasing production and blocking the effect of androgens at the cellular level. It is evident that Spironolactone decreases testosterone production in the adrenal gland by depleting microsomal cytochrome P450 and by affecting the cytochrome P450-dependent enzymes 17a-hydroxylase and desmolase. The destruction of microsomal cytochrome P450 by spironolactone may be limited to those tissues in which microsomal 17a-hydroxylase activity is high. The binding of spironolactone to 17- hydroxylase-cytochrome P450 may convert spironolactone to a metabolite that destroys the heme portion (molecule containing iron) of cytochrome P450, thereby decreasing steroid 17-hydroxylation.

Spironolactone is also a competitive inhibitor of DHT-receptor binding and interferes with the translocation of this complex into the nucleus. Spironolactone, a strong competitor for the androgen receptor, is a potent agonist, whereas canrenone, a weak competitor, is a potent antagonist. The true antagonists of endogenous or exogenous androgens are the weak agonists, which rely only on a continuous supply of the compound to achieve full inhibition. The antiandrogen effect of spironolactone may be produced by the parent compound on the adrenal gland and the metabolite on the receptor site.

But how much of this metabolite is going to turn up in the scalp from topical spironolactone, and how continuous of a supply would there even be? Not nearly as much as the liver can churn out, right? Just as systemic minoxidil gives such great results compared to topical, surely topical spironolactone would pale in comparison to the oral version.