Can topical dutasteride help with exess scalp tesosterone?

[JaneyElizabeth]

Well at best it can only reduce SOME of the T on the scalp. If the half life were longer it might actually be a very powerful treatment, because T is constantly produced all day and will simply outcompete RU, albeit the binding affinities for AR are equivalent. The thing where RU may come in handy is the hairline, but yeah, there really isn't a lot of significant improvements out there aside from Derek's. I still think it's worth it for someone who is struggling at the hairline, it can stack well with other treatments.

I hold your thoughts in high regard. Maybe you could do a short write-up as to what you think that is available now, in accordance with price and availability, constitutes the best "experimental" male hair treatments.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

I’m in Toronto. It’s sold in abundance in Canada in local stores. But good luck finding Minoxidil 5% here

I will look and see if I see any pink boxes at the pharmacy. I still think that in terms of avoiding sheds, starting with 2 percent should be optimal. We are all susceptible to thinking that stronger is better and MtF's vary little in this aspect. Oh, you mean Keto-strength Nizoral. Both work according to Rob Winter but slightly differently. There is a separate article than below on Nizoral specifically listed in the articles section.

Why I Stopped Using Shampoos And Conditioners

Wondering which shampoo to buy if your hair is thinning? Don't buy any of them. Here's how shampooing can contribute to hair loss.

perfecthairhealth.com

Nizoral Shampoo For Hair Loss - Does it Help? | Hairguard

If you ask the man on the street to tell you the most popular shampoo against men’s hair loss, he will probably mention a popular shampoo marketed specifically for hair loss. But ask a member of the hair loss community what shampoo he uses, and there’s a good chance it will be Nizoral shampoo or […]

www.hairguard.com

In 2015, a hair loss study showed rosemary oil may increase hair count as much as 2% minoxidil.

In 2015, a hair loss study showed that rosemary oil may significantly increase scalp hair count and could be as effective 2% minoxidil (Rogaine). Unfortunately those hair regrowth results aren't as strong as people believed. But don't dismiss rosemary oil for hair loss just yet! Read on.

perfecthairhealth.com

 

[Einstein]

It’s very likely a less potent version would help lesson sheds, but you’ll get equally lesser results, as far as it goes for men at least. Funny thing is it’s more common for those using minoxidil to use more than the recommended amount: 1mL. It’s usually between 2mL-3mL. That goes for both the 2% version and the 5% version. What that ultimately does is increase the percentage of minoxidil being applied. So for all we know those applying 2% minoxidil are actually applying 4%-6% of minoxidil, and those applying 5% are applying 10%-15% of minoxidil. By using more you’re using a higher %age of Minoxidil. So you’re probably correct in saying 2% is better to start off with especially when one has to use more than the recommended 1mL

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

It’s very likely a less potent version would help lesson sheds, but you’ll get equally lesser results, as far as it goes for men at least. Funny thing is it’s more common for those using minoxidil to use more than the recommended amount: 1mL. It’s usually between 2mL-3mL. That goes for both the 2% version and the 5% version. What that ultimately does is increase the percentage of minoxidil being applied. So for all we know those applying 2% minoxidil are actually applying 4%-6% of minoxidil, and those applying 5% are applying 10%-15% of minoxidil. By using more you’re using a higher %age of Minoxidil. So you’re probably correct in saying 2% is better to start off with especially when one has to use more than the recommended 1mL

Because I was a diffuse thinner, I always and continue to, combed it throughout the entire scalp and then massaged it in. So minoxidil does seem to have at least slight topical effects seemingly but the rosemary article makes topical minoxidil come off looking pretty lackluster and as most of us have found, it is more of a substitute/similar med to finasteride when used topically and not orally where it actually seems to work. Sulfurotransferase levels naturally found in men and women seem to make the difference for topical responders in terms of hair regrowth. I believe five percent min works pretty well as a stabilizer.

 

[Norwoody]

I hold your thoughts in high regard. Maybe you could do a short write-up as to what you think that is available now, in accordance with price and availability, constitutes the best "experimental" male hair treatments.

The only experimental I have used is RU. I have used fluridil, but that's approved in the Czech as Eucapil. Both provide itch relief, but RU is definitely much more powerful. With fluridil the itch will come back a few hours later, whereas with RU twice daily the itch is almost gone. I forget the actual binding affinity of fluridil, it might have been something like 1:40? Though I believe that half life might be longer. I have seen more success stories on RU and virtually none from fluridil aside from reports of reduced itch. I haven't experienced side effects from either, side effects are supposed to be generally low for both, but side effects from fluridil are extremely low (the compound is hydrophobic and designed to breakdown upon contact with the serum) and might be something to try for someone who has issues with RU. Both dry fairly quickly. RU might take about 5-15mins and leave a little residue once it dried (this might be due to the carrier) but you can easily brush it out. Fluridil is an isopropyl based topical, and dries very quickly, leaving no residue at all. Apparently some have complained about scalp dryness on it, which is no doubt due to the isopropyl, but that might actually be desirable for those with an oily scalp. It depends how much you use, but they will probably cost around 60 bucks a month for either.

CB is supposed to be a several times weaker than RU but still more powerful than fluridil. However, unlike RU, CB is steroidal and can cause HPA suppression, so it might have to be cycled. Despite this, it is supposed to have a low incidence of side effects. The only real success I have seen is from Duterino, but he also had very, very minor hair loss. He said RU gave him sides but that CB didn't even while at super high dosages. I forget the exact price of it but it might be about 100 a month. This is something that you would consider if 1. RU gives you sides 2. Fluridil is not powerful enough 3. you are willing to dole out that kind of cash.

Then there's alfatradiol, which is basically a very weak form of estradiol, and I see this as possibly counterproductive because it is obviously even weaker than endogenous estrogen. Supposedly it is even considered a weak 5ARI. I don't know of any success stories on this, but I believe the side effect profile is very low as well. To me it's not even worth trying.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

The only experimental I have used is RU. I have used fluridil, but that's approved in the Czech as Eucapil. Both provide itch relief, but RU is definitely much more powerful. With fluridil the itch will come back a few hours later, whereas with RU twice daily the itch is almost gone. I forget the actual binding affinity of fluridil, it might have been something like 1:40? Though I believe that half life might be longer. I have seen more success stories on RU and virtually none from fluridil aside from reports of reduced itch. I haven't experienced side effects from either, side effects are supposed to be generally low for both, but side effects from fluridil are extremely low (the compound is hydrophobic and designed to breakdown upon contact with the serum) and might be something to try for someone who has issues with RU. Both dry fairly quickly. RU might take about 5-15mins and leave a little residue once it dried (this might be due to the carrier) but you can easily brush it out. Fluridil is an isopropyl based topical, and dries very quickly, leaving no residue at all. Apparently some have complained about scalp dryness on it, which is no doubt due to the isopropyl, but that might actually be desirable for those with an oily scalp. It depends how much you use, but they will probably cost around 60 bucks a month for either.

CB is supposed to be a several times weaker than RU but still more powerful than fluridil. However, unlike RU, CB is steroidal and can cause HPA suppression, so it might have to be cycled. Despite this, it is supposed to have a low incidence of side effects. The only real success I have seen is from Duterino, but he also had very, very minor hair loss. He said RU gave him sides but that CB didn't even while at super high dosages. I forget the exact price of it but it might be about 100 a month. This is something that you would consider if 1. RU gives you sides 2. Fluridil is not powerful enough 3. you are willing to dole out that kind of cash.

Then there's alfatradiol, which is basically a very weak form of estradiol, and I see this as possibly counterproductive because it is obviously even weaker than endogenous estrogen. Supposedly it is even considered a weak 5ARI. I don't know of any success stories on this, but I believe the side effect profile is very low as well. To me it's not even worth trying.

Nice and concise. Thanks. I still consider fluridil and CB to be more or less experimental because their use is not very widespread. Alfatradiol has been around forever and I think that I identified it back in 1984 initially as a possibility but it was/is mostly used in Germany and as you say, it might not be as good as a placebo.

There have only been a couple of studies from the '80's but I continue to encourage people to play around with polysorbates. They have no sides at all and to me, even though pre-keto, they seemed to have similar or better efficacy. You can eat them as they are used in ice cream and other foods as preservatives but not for hair, lol. Don't eat them. They are cheap on Amazon. PS60 is better for leaving in and PS80 is better to use in the bath as it is sticky like castor oil. I have desisted from castor oil except rarely as a topical left in for an hour because regardless of dosage, I was having gastric issues that were not trivial.

 

[Norwoody]

Nice and concise. Thanks. I still consider fluridil and CB to be more or less experimental because their use is not very widespread. Alfatradiol has been around forever and I think that I identified it back in 1984 initially as a possibility but it was/is mostly used in Germany and as you say, it might not be as good as a placebo.

There have only been a couple of studies from the '80's but I continue to encourage people to play around with polysorbates. They have no sides at all and to me, even though pre-keto, they seemed to have similar or better efficacy. You can eat them as they are used in ice cream and other foods as preservatives but not for hair, lol. Don't eat them. They are cheap on Amazon. PS60 is better for leaving in and PS80 is better to use in the bath as it is sticky like castor oil. I have desisted from castor oil except rarely as a topical left in for an hour because regardless of dosage, I was having gastric issues that were not trivial.

Always find the retrospective stuff interesting. Does it seem like celebrities were using polysorbates as a popular treatment back then?

It seems to me that oral castor oil is not as effective as it is topically. It's just a pain to leave in and wash out, especially when you may be using other topicals as priority. I think it would be great to include as part of a carrier in a super-topical though. I don't mix my own stuff though, so someone else should try this.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Always find the retrospective stuff interesting. Does it seem like celebrities were using polysorbates as a popular treatment back then?

It seems to me that oral castor oil is not as effective as it is topically. It's just a pain to leave in and wash out, especially when you may be using other topicals as priority. I think it would be great to include as part of a carrier in a super-topical though. I don't mix my own stuff though, so someone else should try this.

Robert Vaughn, the Man from Uncle did the infommercials for the Helsinki Formula back in the 80's. I had no idea who he was back then as that show pre-dated even me. The main competition was Bob Murphy, literally some guy from California who found out about the Finnish study and made his own version from PS60 called New Generation. The Helsinki Formula was PS80. Just finding those options in 1985 or so, stopped most of my anxiety and my functioning sexually all returned and I think I got at least the appearance of regrowth and thickening. I used them until Minoxidil 2 percent came out but I used them off and on until I started finasteride and duta and even then at times. I think that they lowered inflammation from sebum-byproducts left by P. acnes and the malassezia yeast, both of which consume sebum and leave waste, i.e. crap all over our scalps and faces.

Just putting something on your head everyday is likely to have placebo effects but I think these did work. Bob Murphy had been completely bald and "recovered" to a bad comb-over but that's how desperate we were then. He did have before and after pics and at least for him, they clearly did something. They were advertised under a discrediedt theory of unblocking follicles so the FDA shut them down with a heavy hand. Then people started touting placental factors, especially in France where I was at the time but they cost a fortune and did little or nothing that I could tell but there were some infomercials with these as well as hair in a spray can which was ten times better than Toppix but I think it got shut down for using aerosols harmful to the ozone layer. It's always something.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Always find the retrospective stuff interesting. Does it seem like celebrities were using polysorbates as a popular treatment back then?

It seems to me that oral castor oil is not as effective as it is topically. It's just a pain to leave in and wash out, especially when you may be using other topicals as priority. I think it would be great to include as part of a carrier in a super-topical though. I don't mix my own stuff though, so someone else should try this.

I think it's too sticky to use as a carrier for people with diffuse thinning. That's one thing maybe that people miss is to do the entire scalp unless one has essentially unaffected fringe. As I looked at that Rosemary article by Rob, those are some impressive microneedling results with minoxidil as a carrier. Probably the best path forward for male treatments involves stem cell renewal plus dutasteride and maybe use of estradiol to get things going. Obviously oral min is always a major path forward if it works for someone.

 

[drock18]

It’s very likely a less potent version would help lesson sheds, but you’ll get equally lesser results, as far as it goes for men at least. Funny thing is it’s more common for those using minoxidil to use more than the recommended amount: 1mL. It’s usually between 2mL-3mL. That goes for both the 2% version and the 5% version. What that ultimately does is increase the percentage of minoxidil being applied. So for all we know those applying 2% minoxidil are actually applying 4%-6% of minoxidil, and those applying 5% are applying 10%-15% of minoxidil. By using more you’re using a higher %age of Minoxidil. So you’re probably correct in saying 2% is better to start off with especially when one has to use more than the recommended 1mL

Einstein I'm curious what strength and how much RU you've found to be effective? I also have used RU and the 8% solution I bought was effective but I'm curious if it's overkill. Curious what your thoughts are. Thansk

 

[Young&thinning]

I think it's too sticky to use as a carrier for people with diffuse thinning. That's one thing maybe that people miss is to do the entire scalp unless one has essentially unaffected fringe. As I looked at that Rosemary article by Rob, those are some impressive microneedling results with minoxidil as a carrier. Probably the best path forward for male treatments involves stem cell renewal plus dutasteride and maybe use of estradiol to get things going. Obviously oral min is always a major path forward if it works for someone.

Topical Castor Oil sounds an awful idea to use on scalps, I used to use it briefly on my eyebrows for growth (didn’t work) and the stickiness was too much. I now use Castor Oil orally following a video by MPMD and although I don’t think it’s helping loads, it’s very inexpensive to use.

Maybe I’m just a huge overthinker but would Topical Castor Oil potentially impact the effectiveness of other topicals since it’s so thick?

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Topical Castor Oil sounds an awful idea to use on scalps, I used to use it briefly on my eyebrows for growth (didn’t work) and the stickiness was too much. I now use Castor Oil orally following a video by MPMD and although I don’t think it’s helping loads, it’s very inexpensive to use.

Maybe I’m just a huge overthinker but would Topical Castor Oil potentially impact the effectiveness of other topicals since it’s so thick?

I am unable to tolerate Castor oil apparently. I started going down to just pouring a bit on my thumb and I still couldn't get it not to go straight through me. To me, minoxidil is a two-fer when used with microneedling although Rosemary seems to work well too. Probably any oil can be used effectively. People who do the fringe and who have hair on top, want something to facilitate rolling not gum it up so Castor oil is probably not indicated. Even in the last ten months, to me, it seems like the interest in Castor Oil and Zix is waning based upon how often the old posts are re-commented on.