Bryan, what do u think of this crazy theory??

[bubka]

Guys: This is going to sound very crazy also. I started losing alot of the hairs on my legs, especially on the thighs, about the same time as I started losing the hairs on the top of my head.

When i first noticed male pattern baldness i also noticed that some hair of my legs near foot were half gone.

thats probably from traction alopecia, from socks or pants rubbing on skin...

i know in the winter i have less leg hair because of it, especially on back of calves from wearing pants

 

[Bryan]

sure, but who is to say that anti androgens that work on secondary sex body hair will work on hair on your scalp...

Why would they work on one, but not the other?

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

I know through my own experiments with both topical 5ARI's and 5% spironolactone cream, that topical spironolactone does squat to androgen driven hair growth.

But i know and others can try this for themselves, that topical spironolactone has no effect whatsoever on slowing beard growth.

The effects are probably subtle enough that whatever experiment you did on yourself wasn't precise enough (or didn't last long enough) to be able to tell the difference. How do you explain Rittmaster's successful use of spironolactone cream for hirstism in women?

Topical 5ARI's "do" slow beard growth.

Why would 5ARI's work for that, but not antiandrogens?

Bryan

 

[bubka]

sure, but who is to say that anti androgens that work on secondary sex body hair will work on hair on your scalp...

Why would they work on one, but not the other?

Bryan

they are different types of hairs, in a different type of skin, different combinations of genes, different hormone receptors... it's endless

 

[Bryan]

they are different types of hairs, in a different type of skin, different combinations of genes, different hormone receptors... it's endless

I don't really understand your point. Are you saying that those factors are somehow going to prevent the penetration of spironolactone into some types of hair follicles? How exactly would THAT work??

Bryan

 

[bubka]

no, i am sure it will penetrate, but to say that spironolactone blocks androgen a on body hair type b1 and causes c, cannot be said that spriro still blocking androgen a on body hair type b2 will still cause c is not all that scientific...

like i said, you have two different hair types, who is to say they will react the same to the same blocked antigen... you can't blanketly make that assumption

 

[Old Baldy]

no, i am sure it will penetrate, but to say that spironolactone blocks androgen a on body hair type b1 and causes c, cannot be said that spriro still blocking androgen a on body hair type b2 will still cause c is not all that scientific...

like i said, you have two different hair types, who is to say they will react the same to the same blocked antigen... you can't blanketly make that assumption

I understand but it should have the same action shouldn't it?

Maybe just not a strong enough action for some of us? You know, maybe spironolactone. doesn't block enough AR's? Or AR's increase in amount due to using spironolactone. and on and on and on?

I mean, if it blocks androgen receptors then it blocks androgen receptors. :?

I sure wish I knew why some follicles "like" DHT whereas other follicles "hate" DHT. :? :? :?

 

[Bryan]

no, i am sure it will penetrate, but to say that spironolactone blocks androgen a on body hair type b1 and causes c, cannot be said that spriro still blocking androgen a on body hair type b2 will still cause c is not all that scientific...

???

What the hell are you talking about?? _I_ am referring to body hair (like beard hair) which is clearly KNOWN to be stimulated by androgens. Is that what YOU are talking about, or something else?

like i said, you have two different hair types, who is to say they will react the same to the same blocked antigen... you can't blanketly make that assumption

Whaaaa......?? I still don't have any idea what you're trying to say. Are you talking about two different types of body hair, one which is stimulated by androgens (like beard hair) and one which isn't affected at all (like eyebrows)? Or are you talking about two different types of hair, one of which is stimulated by androgens (like beard hair), and one of which is suppressed by androgens (like scalp hair)? Why can't you just say exactly what you mean?

Bryan

 

[S Foote.]

I know through my own experiments with both topical 5ARI's and 5% spironolactone cream, that topical spironolactone does squat to androgen driven hair growth.

But i know and others can try this for themselves, that topical spironolactone has no effect whatsoever on slowing beard growth.

The effects are probably subtle enough that whatever experiment you did on yourself wasn't precise enough (or didn't last long enough) to be able to tell the difference. How do you explain Rittmaster's successful use of spironolactone cream for hirstism in women?

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/spironolactone.html[/url]

Oral spironolactone works well in reducing female hirstutism. The topical spironolactone versions have almost no effect, the vehicle making a small difference.

Scientific implications are as follows.

The slight differences depending upon topical vehicle, demonstrate that penetration is important and the spironolactone needs to penetrate to a depth "greater" than the level of hair follicles.

There is no technical reason whatsoever for spironolactone in any topical "not" to taken up by hair follicles. The often used excuse that spironolactone is rapidly metabilised is clearly wrong because oral spironolactone works well in hirstutism.

Oral spironolactone has a far more exposed route to follow to get to follicles than topicals, so the metabolism rate is a lot higher. But it works far better than topicals!!

The scientific conclusion is very clear. :wink:

The androgen receptors that need to be blocked to effect hair growth, are not in hair follicles, they are in deeper tissues.

This is why topical 5ARI's "DO" work in reducing beard growth. The DHT produced in follicles effects follicles by it's circulation to deeper tissues.

Reducing surface DHT production with a topical 5ARI will reduce the amount of DHT reaching the deeper tissues, simple!

The spironolactone issue alone blows your old idea's away Bryan!

S Foote.

 

[S Foote.]

To clarify my own experiment.

I used topical Crinigen on my beard area as i have posted about on hairloss sites.

Over a few weeks, my beard growth reduced to around half of what it was. The hair diameter reduced and it became so much softer that i had to wet shave as my electric shaver didn't handle the less rigid hair well.

I decided to try spironolactone 5% cream for a while, and my beard growth returned to it's original strength within a month.

Anyone can try this and see for themselves.

S Foote.

 

[Felk]

"One disturbing feature was that the hirsutism became worse
during the 3 months when the cream base was used."

Wasn't this just the cream vehicle, without the spironolactone. in it?

 

[Bryan]

[quote="S Foote.":29b82]I know through my own experiments with both topical 5ARI's and 5% spironolactone cream, that topical spironolactone does squat to androgen driven hair growth.

But i know and others can try this for themselves, that topical spironolactone has no effect whatsoever on slowing beard growth.

The effects are probably subtle enough that whatever experiment you did on yourself wasn't precise enough (or didn't last long enough) to be able to tell the difference. How do you explain Rittmaster's successful use of spironolactone cream for hirstism in women?

[quote="S Foote.":29b82]Topical 5ARI's "do" slow beard growth.

Why would 5ARI's work for that, but not antiandrogens?

Bryan[/quote:29b82]

Huh?

The Rittmaster study "YOU" posted said this quote:

"One disturbing feature was that the hirsutism became worse
during the 3 months when the cream base was used."[/quote:29b82]

Yes. So what? Please answer the above questions that I asked you, without trying to sidestep them.

Oral spironolactone works well in reducing female hirstutism. The topical spironolactone versions have almost no effect, the vehicle making a small difference.

Then how do you explain the Rittmaster results? ANSWER THE QUESTION.

The slight differences depending upon topical vehicle, demonstrate that penetration is important and the spironolactone needs to penetrate to a depth "greater" than the level of hair follicles.

Really? Then how do you explain the fact that spironolactone enhances the growth of scalp hair, but suppresses the growth of body hair? Better put on your thinking-cap and try to come up with another of your patented ad hoc explanations! :wink:

The androgen receptors that need to be blocked to effect hair growth, are not in hair follicles, they are in deeper tissues.

This is why topical 5ARI's "DO" work in reducing beard growth. The DHT produced in follicles effects follicles by it's circulation to deeper tissues.

Reducing surface DHT production with a topical 5ARI will reduce the amount of DHT reaching the deeper tissues, simple!

Are you aware of what a TINY percentage of total bodily DHT is contributed by the scalp? Yet another of your silly explanations/excuses...

Bryan

 

[S Foote.]

http://www.uspharmacist.com/index.asp?s ... 8_1061.htm[/url]

Which clearly means such topicals can be easily taken up by hair follicle cells. :wink:

Topical spironolactone in whatever vehicle, get's into follicles where "YOU" claim it's needed!

The simple fact that such spironolactone topicals have been proven to have no significant effect on hair growth, whilst oral spironolactone has, proves that the androgen action is more systematic and NOT within the follicles!

Your blatant distortion of the Rittmaster study in this thread, compared to your original comments when you first posted it, is clear for all to see :roll:

I have better things to do than try to educate you on science Bryan, so i will not post here again.

If people want to test this for themselves, try 5% spironolactone cream on your beard area. This should stop your beard growth dead according to the idea Bryan supports?

You will be dissapointed :wink:

S Foote.

 

[S Foote.]

"One disturbing feature was that the hirsutism became worse
during the 3 months when the cream base was used."

Wasn't this just the cream vehicle, without the spironolactone. in it?

Not as i understand Bryans original post.

S Foote.

 

[michael barry]

http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00197379

New trial with a topical immunosuppressant based on a Japanese study.



" Roxithromycin has not only antibacterial action but also immunomodulatory and anti-inflamatory potency. For example, roxitromycin inhibits T cell responces to mitogens and production of cytokines, IL-2 and IL-5. We firstly found that roxitromycin increased human and murine hair elongation in vitro to inhibit apoptosis of hair bulb"


The above statement says tons doesnt it?


Bryan, any comments on that? By the way...............I gandered a bit at this thread and Im glad that someone else FINALLY recognizes that many of us guys on hairsites could put topicals on our body hair and judge for ourselves if they are good anti-androgens or stimulants. I would imagine prox-n would really get you a hairy patch of arm for instance (and I'd try it, but I dont want to waste the three months or so supply of the very effective prox-n I have left). I can personally vouch for revivogen. It only took 2 and a half months to see a very contrasting picture of my right wrist's hair vs. the left. It worked, and well too.



Back to the immunosuppressant, it worked in vitro also and protected against apoptosis in vitro (like the alanine/hisitine/lysine peptides that were tested in the Korean Study did and that can be found in American Crew and Tricomin).


Good stuff gents.

 

[Bryan]

[quote="S Foote.":36790]"One disturbing feature was that the hirsutism became worse
during the 3 months when the cream base was used."

Wasn't this just the cream vehicle, without the spironolactone. in it?

Not as i understand Bryans original post.[/quote:36790]

I guess it was inevitable. You've finally lost all your ability to comprehend what you read, because Felk was right: it was just the cream vehicle (without the spironolactone) which made the hirsutism worse. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Your blatant distortion of the Rittmaster study in this thread, compared to your original comments when you first posted it, is clear for all to see :roll:

You're a liar and a hypocrite. You refused to acknowledge the points I made, or answer the questions I posed to you.

I have better things to do than try to educate you on science Bryan, so i will not post here again.

Don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out.

Bryan

 

[bubka]

If people want to test this for themselves, try 5% spironolactone cream on your beard area. This should stop your beard growth dead according to the idea Bryan supports?

You will be dissapointed :wink:

S Foote.

i know, thats what i argued against, that the results for secondary sex hair will be the same for hair on the scalp... it's ridiculous to say without any evidence for both

 

[Bryan]

i know, thats what i argued against, that the results for secondary sex hair will be the same for hair on the scalp... it's ridiculous to say without any evidence for both

So are you saying you agree with Stephen Foote? You think androgens affect ALL hair follicles the same way (or maybe even not at all, as Stephen has implied on occasion)? You don't believe the scientific evidence showing that androgens suppress the growth of scalp hair, but stimulate the growth of most body hair?

Bryan

 

[bubka]

i know, thats what i argued against, that the results for secondary sex hair will be the same for hair on the scalp... it's ridiculous to say without any evidence for both

So are you saying you agree with Stephen Foote? You think androgens affect ALL hair follicles the same way (or maybe even not at all, as Stephen has implied on occasion)? You don't believe the scientific evidence showing that androgens suppress the growth of scalp hair, but stimulate the growth of most body hair?

Bryan

NO, thats exactly what I said, all androgen effect different hair follicles differently. I disagreed because you suggested that if spriro cream effected body hair (secondary sex) it could help with scalp hair

yes, i said it could, but you should not make a blanketing statement like that, sure it could reduce body hair, and do nothing with scalp hair, that was my point

i objected to this.. different possible androgens, different hair receptors, etc etc..