BP

Bryan

Senior Member
Staff member
Reaction score
42
s.a.f said:
Bryan said:
Oil wasn't a factor.
Lol well since the WMD were 'invented' what was?

Why am I having to repeat what my sister said about the true purposes of the Iraq invasion? :) GO BACK AND RE-READ WHAT SHE SAID IN MY PREVIOUS POST.

By the way, regarding the issue of whether or not the WMDs were "invented", here's another email from my sister on whether or not Bush really believed them to exist:

--------------------------------------------
Re the WMD question and Bush's 'lying,' you know how much I loathe the man. However, I do not believe he was lying. I believe he truly believed that Saddam had WMD which could be a threat to US and Western security. I should also point out that other intelligence services in Europe also believed that Saddam had WMD. Apart from the British, however, they felt containment was the better course of action.

A few points: (a) It is important to understand that the collection of intelligence is a very difficult job, especially in a closed police state like Saddam's Iraq where reliable humint (human intelligence) is virtually impossible to obtain. (b) We now know from books/articles/research papers that there was significant doubt among some in the intelligence agencies about the existence of WMD....but others really believed WMD existed. The latter were ideologically inclined to support the Administration and some were politically inclined (George Tenet, for ex.) to want to support the Administration. The latter group was in control of the intelligence that went to the White House, thus.... (c) Many non-Administration supporters bought the argument of the existence of WMD in Iraq because Saddam refused to let the Internatl. Atomic Energy Agency inspectors in to carry out their inspections. Why would Saddam refuse to let them in if he had nothing to hide?

So, in my judgment, the combination of Bush's/Cheney's being ideologically hostile to Saddam (combined with Bush's lack of intellectual curiosity and his tendency not to questionquestionquestion the intelligence/policy options being presented to him), together with Tenet's assurances that WMD existed, convinced Bush that Iraq indeed had WMD.

In a way, whether Saddam had WMD or not may be irrelevant. Let's assume for the sake of argument that he had WMD. What then are the policy options for dealing with the problem? There are at least two: (1) containment via sanctions, as the West contained the Soviet Unions successfully for half a century; and (2) invasion. I favored the former; Bush favored the latter. My point is that the Administration never appeared to seriously consider any alternative policy initiatives to that of invasion.
 

The Gardener

Senior Member
Reaction score
25
Bryan said:
Nene said:
Oh. Well I agree with you, there were certainly more reasons besides Oil and WMDs (which I think they may have believed were there but they never had enough evidence.)

Oil wasn't a factor.

who_designed-tech_support_3_laughing_man.jpg
 

GeminiX

Senior Member
Reaction score
5
At the risk of bringing this thread back on topic, the live feed from Washington is very good TV right now (Sky News here), shame it's such a tragedy which brought us great viewing :(
 

oni

Senior Member
Reaction score
0
Tony Hayward, born in Eton, Berkshire..................................................... :whistle:

oil_fri_Hayword_BP_CEO_portrait.jpg


Jobs for the boys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hayward

I hope you string him up, America!!!

I have had too many dealings with these people over the years, incompetent toff muppet, springs to mind.

These people never take the blame. "BP pays Hayward an annual salary of £998,000 and in 2008 his bonus was £1,496,000".

It was always someone else! :jackit: He was not in charge! :uglylol:
 

Boondock

Senior Member
Reaction score
13
Oddly enough, I know senior people at BP who know Tony Hayward very well. Apparently he's a actually good guy. He's also not a toff; he didn't go to Oxford, but to Aston University, and then did a PhD somewhere else. He worked his way up the company as an engineer. No 'jobs for the boys' going on here.

My take on how he seemed today is that he's mentally destroyed. I expect he's already sought psychiatric care. He comes across as extremely depressed, lost, and emotionally flat. Some people interpret this as him being a 'heartless bastard', but I think otherwise.

Obviously the situation is far worse for many on the Gulf Coast, but that doesn't mean that BP should be slammed as they are. They cocked up, and their PR has been terrible, but their response in terms of their plans to compensate individuals and to clean up the mess has been quite good. Having met many of the senior team at BP (albeit not Hayward), the culture of the company is resolutely not like your standard, cut-throat corporate cash-fest. They're generally extremely down-to-earth, normal people. And I expect Hayward is too - which is why I think he feels mortified right now.

Not defending BP's negligence, but I don't think they're as sinister as everyone makes out. They've just cocked up. Big time. And they will pay for it.

But...does anyone else think Hayward's wearing hair??
 

Cassin

Senior Member
Reaction score
78
Boondock said:
But...does anyone else think Hayward's wearing hair??

First off...YES! That was my first thought! Looks too "blocky"

As for the rest of your post I must disagree. Their safety violation record is appalling and their lack of answers today was criminal. They are obviously not willing to admit how bad they screwed up.

Now is he tired and depressed? Yeah but he has seemed cold from day one.

Now when it comes to the safety record violations...I also heavily blame American government laws for allowing them to keep going. In the end maybe this is what we needed to change our fuel source and change how we go about things. So who knows...in the long run maybe this is a good thing.
 

Boondock

Senior Member
Reaction score
13
Aye, I'm not defending the company's safety record. The only two points I would make are:

1. The majority of the individuals concerned are not bad people. They have been terrible insofar as they've failed to live up to the standards they should be maintaining, but the senior team at BP is actually one of the least corporate-psychopathic you could fine. They're actually a little eccentric: the last CEO, the 'Sun King', used to live with his mother.

2. BP are fundamentally at fault, but others are to blame here. As you mentioned, US government regulations and monitoring were probably not up to scratch. BP is at the heart of this but I think they've been singled out a bit too much.

On the REAL topic, look at how Hayward's hairline has changed from this recent picture, where he has a sort of widow's peak forelock going on:

oil_fri_Hayword_BP_CEO_portrait.jpg


To this older picture, where his hairline looks more even and further back:

494px-Tony_Hayward_-_World_Economic_Forum_on_the_Middle_East_2008.jpg


I'm calling wig on this guys.
 

Cassin

Senior Member
Reaction score
78
Boondock said:
2. BP are fundamentally at fault, but others are to blame here. As you mentioned, US government regulations and monitoring were probably not up to scratch. BP is at the heart of this but I think they've been singled out a bit too much.
.

Heres the problem...they lied about the amount of oil that was coming out as this story was unfolding and got caught pretty fast. While they are likely doing everything they can to stop it and aren't the only party to blame, they don't have credibility.
 

Slartibartfast

Senior Member
Reaction score
2
Cassin said:
Now is he tired and depressed? Yeah but he has seemed cold from day one.

I just don't see that. He's an English geologist, how outwardly expressive do you expect him to be? Doesn't mean he's this heartless, cold, uncaring bastard that you make him out to be.
 

Cassin

Senior Member
Reaction score
78
Forget that he's British I don't care about that. Hes a CEO of a huge company...you don't get that way by being a super nice fellow.And what about his lies about how much was leaking? Another case of him not knowing yet others knew. Did you see him with congress yesterday?

I was rooting for the guy hoping he would make things good again yesterday.
 

Hammy070

Established Member
Reaction score
0
My proposal still I think will work best.

To solve the problem, we need about 10 thousand sea birds...those babies absorb oil better than a Southern fry up.
 

ShedMaster

Senior Member
Reaction score
5
Hammy070 said:
My proposal still I think will work best.

To solve the problem, we need about 10 thousand sea birds...those babies absorb oil better than a Southern fry up.



mmmmmmm.... sea birds in hot oil...ugghhhhhh... delicious!
 

pratc

Established Member
Reaction score
0
I don't care about that. Hes a CEO of a huge company...you don't get that way by being a super nice fellow.And what about his lies about how much was leaking? Another case of him not knowing yet others knew. Did you see him with congress yesterday?

I mostly agree with Cassin on this. No matter how humble his beginnings were, to get to the top you have to be quite ruthless. I think he does have empathy for the ecological disaster but his main concern is BP. I also think he was evasive in his 'interrogation' so as not to admit any liabilities (to the company), implicitly or explicitly.
 

The Gardener

Senior Member
Reaction score
25
Roasting the CEO doesn't bring me any satisfaction.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence pointing to some bad decisions being made by BP executives in charge of operations on the rig. Drilling before the soundness of the concrete wellhead was set, using seawater instead of "mud" as a counterweight to the pressure of the liquid coming out of the well, using a blowout preventer that had very well documented failings... hydraulic leaks, dead batteries, and some "ad hoc" mechanical "fixes" that were not "by the book". Yet instead of taking some time to get all of these issues sorted out, they insisted on drilling immediately into a well that was also very well documented as being in a difficult pocket of hydrocarbons that had already given them several "kicks" of potentially catastrophic methane bursts. Especially considering that the rig operators had raised some very vocal reservations in opposition to the pace BP wanted to take with extraction.

The BP guy who was behind this "f*ck it, just drill" mentality, the BP guy who was the operational "decision maker" needs to be criminally prosecuted and put in jail. And, I'd venture a guess that this guy is probably an American. But the BP entity on the whole is on the hook for the potential destruction of what might very well be large swaths of an entire ecosystem.

Coincedentally, I just watched "There Will Be Blood" for the first time on cable tonight, and it's quite eye opening given the current situation in the gulf.
 

squeegee

Banned
Reaction score
132
We should take this as a badexample and go green! Don't tag me as an hippie lol... Just show how the oil industry frigging hurt this planet. This is a tragedy...So disgusting to me :puke:
 

GeminiX

Senior Member
Reaction score
5
squeegee said:
We should take this as a badexample and go green! Don't tag me as an hippie lol... Just show how the oil industry frigging hurt this planet. This is a tragedy...So disgusting to me :puke:

I'm no tree hugger, I'm a red meat eating oil burning petrol head in fact, but seeing the harm which is being done to one of my favourite places on the planet is heart breaking.

While I'm reasonably sure that a lot of the stuff coming out of the global warming camp is scare-scaremongering and opportunistic academic societies are using the "cause" as a means to securing additional funding, I firmly believe that trying to cut down on the amounts of energy we use is very good common sense.

Over the last two years or so, as I've been replacing or upgrading electrical consumer goods I've given energy efficiency a high priority and I'm now actually seeing the savings on my financial out-goings. A couple of days ago I test drove a hybrid car, it was fantastic too.

If there can be a silver lining to this disaster, maybe it can be that some people with political clout can encourage society to find ways to be more efficient without expecting consumers to make a sacrifice; lets be honest after all, not many consumers like change.
 

s.a.f

Senior Member
Reaction score
67
^ Yeah but I'm betting this wont change anything. People will always do what they want, whats easiest for them first. And no government has the balls to rock the boat to do otherwise.
A few days ago the scientist who discovered the smallpox vacine predicted that the human race has less than 100 yrs left.
 
Top