Blocking 100% of DHT

[Def]

Hey All

It seems fundamental that DHT is the primary culprit in the male pattern baldness that we all suffer. Further, the implication is that both Type I and Type II DHT are in some way responsible.

Why then have I not seen anyone on this site using both Finasteride (either Proscar or Propecia) AND something like Revivogen? Would that not block both Type I AND Type II DHT and be effective both systemically AND topically?

Something like this wouldn’t be too difficult:

AM: 1.5ml quick drying minoxidil
Style hair
1.25mg Finasteride


PM 1.5ml Revivogen before bed

Is there anyone who has tried this already? Any results to report?

Since I’ve now been 2.5 years on both Finasteride and minoxidil, with maintenance, perhaps I should test this out?

Cheers

Def

 

[drinkrum]

I don't think there is any evidence that Revivogen blocks DHT formation in the scalp, as it claims. You're best just sticking with the finasteride.

D.

 

[Def]

Hey D.

Certainly, I will be sticking with the Finasteride! I’m just wondering whether the addition of Revivogen would be of any benefit…

I was under the impression that quite a number of Revivogen’s constituent ingredients had been shown to inhibit both Type 1 and Type 2 DHT in the scalp to at least SOME degree. There are some articles on this very site which provide some scientific backing for some of the ingredients in Revivogen.

Perhaps they’re not the double-blind, in vivo studies that everyone prays for but they’re something… Has anyone tried both Finasteride and Revivogen for a sustained period of time, after having previously been on Finasteride alone?

Cheers

Def

 

[techprof]

def, in my opinion spironolactone is better for killing the dht (only compared to revivogen) and costs less.

 

[Stingray]

It's probably not in your best interest to block 100% of DHT. You know, if you like being a man and all =)

 

[fnarr]

Small point of pedantry: there is no type I or type II DHT. There is just DHT. Type I and type II refers to the two forms of the enzyme (enzymes anre proteins that speed up reactions in living organisms) 5-alpha reductase which converts free testosterone to dihydrotestosteron (DHT).

In response to the intended question: I think that in designing our regimens blocking DHT in the scalp should indeed be viewed separately to blocking it systemically. It seems unlikely that DHT performs *no* useful function, so totally systemically inhibiting both forms of 5AR (as dutasteride virtually achieves) *might* have consequences other than hair growth in the longer term.

But by all means, sticking to finasteride (inhibits just one form of 5AR systemically) and then adding one of the supposed topical DHT inhibitors (spironolactone, fludidil, etc.) is another weapon those who can afford it might want to consider (the idea being that they do not have systemic effects). I say supposed as IMHO there's scant clinical evidence of their effectiveness toward male pattern baldness.

 

[Chujgcha]

...

 

[Def]

Thanks fnarr

I actually thought I might have confused 5AR with DHT when I wrote that post!

As I said, 2.5 years on the finasteride and I’ve had no side effects whatsoever (knocking wood… no pun intended!). It makes complete sense to me that both a systemic and topical route would make sense. If DHT DOES in fact have some use, then I highly doubt that such use would be topical or interfered with by topical preventatives.

Thanks also for the spironolactone suggestion… I guess that then broadens the scope of my question. Anyone on here used both finasteride and topical anti-DHT measures?

Looks like may have to be the guinea pig!

Def

 

[Chujgcha]

Small point of pedantry

But by all means, sticking to finasteride (inhibits just one form of 5AR systemically) and then adding one of the supposed topical DHT inhibitors (spironolactone, fludidil, etc.) is another weapon those who can afford it might want to consider (the idea being that they do not have systemic effects). I say supposed as IMHO there's scant clinical evidence of their effectiveness toward male pattern baldness.

Pedantry to the nth degree:

Finasteride also inhibits type I 5AR, but it requires much higher doses than Dutasteride to significantly inhibit type I. A concentration 81nM of Finasteride will inhibit 50% type 1 5 AR and probably kill an elephant's sex-drive.

I don't think a topical DHT inhibitor exists. Topical Anti-Androgen?

Cheers,

Mr. Perfect

 

[Bryan]

I don't think a topical DHT inhibitor exists. Topical Anti-Androgen?

Sweet Mother of Mercy! Why do people who post on hairloss sites keep using the ambiguous expression "DHT inhibitor"?? :boom: Is a "DHT inhibitor" a 5a-reductase inhibitor, or is it an antiandrogen? Or is it both of those? Or is it neither one of those, but something else entirely? Why don't we stick to the same technical terms that doctors and scientists use, and stop using made-up expressions? issed: :mad2:

BTW, topical progesterone has been shown to be a 5a-reductase inhibitor, although it seems to vary in effectiveness considerably from one species to another. There is also clear in vivo evidence for topical fatty acids being 5a-reductase inhibitors and perhaps even antiandrogens, although there's still not a whole lot of evidence that they make it into human hair follicles (there IS some evidence that they affected hair follicles in the hamster tests).

Bryan

 

[Def]

Well… correct me if I’m wrong, Bryan (and I may well be) but:

1) a 5AR inhibitor, would inhibit 5AR (itself) and subsequently the synthesis of DHT from Testosterone; and

2) an anti-androgen (subject to its method of action), would inhibit DHT directly or indirectly by binding to the same receptor site.

Isn’t the sum total of the above that both a 5AR inhibitor AND an anti-androgen would inhibit DHT?!

Notwithstanding, Bryan, in your academic opinion would you recommend something like Revivogen (whether it be a 5AR inhibitor or w/ever) be used in conjunction with Finasteride to maximise the inefficacy of DHT on our follicles?

Def

 

[Chujgcha]

Why do people who post on hairloss sites keep using the ambiguous expression "DHT inhibitor"??

Bryan

Bryan,

I am aware DHT inhibitors, DHT Blockers, DHT I & DHT II are inaccurate expressions...that was my point in posting.

 

[Bryan]

Well… correct me if I’m wrong, Bryan (and I may well be) but:

1) a 5AR inhibitor, would inhibit 5AR (itself) and subsequently the synthesis of DHT from Testosterone; and

2) an anti-androgen (subject to its method of action), would inhibit DHT directly or indirectly by binding to the same receptor site.

Isn’t the sum total of the above that both a 5AR inhibitor AND an anti-androgen would inhibit DHT?!

I suppose so, but why not just use the same terms that doctors and scientists use? That would eliminate confusion. I know for a fact that some people consider "DHT inhibitor" to mean a 5a-reductase inhibitor ONLY, whereas some other people use it to mean EITHER a 5a-reductase inhibitor OR an antiandrogen.

Notwithstanding, Bryan, in your academic opinion would you recommend something like Revivogen (whether it be a 5AR inhibitor or w/ever) be used in conjunction with Finasteride to maximise the inefficacy of DHT on our follicles?

Oh, I dunno... That's ok if you want to do it, but it may be a bit of overkill. The main reason for using something like Revivogen in the first place is to avoid systemic drugs like Propecia.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

I am aware DHT inhibitors, DHT Blockers, DHT I & DHT II are inaccurate expressions...that was my point in posting.

Ok, but nothing in your post suggested to me that was the case. I took it at face value.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

I don't think a topical DHT inhibitor exists. Topical Anti-Androgen?

Sweet Mother of Mercy! Why do people who post on hairloss sites keep using the ambiguous expression "DHT inhibitor"?? :boom: Is a "DHT inhibitor" a 5a-reductase inhibitor, or is it an antiandrogen? Or is it both of those? Or is it neither one of those, but something else entirely? Why don't we stick to the same technical terms that doctors and scientists use, and stop using made-up expressions? issed: :mad2:

BTW, topical progesterone has been shown to be a 5a-reductase inhibitor, although it seems to vary in effectiveness considerably from one species to another. There is also clear in vivo evidence for topical fatty acids being 5a-reductase inhibitors and perhaps even antiandrogens, although there's still not a whole lot of evidence that they make it into human hair follicles (there IS some evidence that they affected hair follicles in the hamster tests).

Bryan

Bryan,

I think everyone appreciates the fact that you are extremely well-read on the subject of hair-loss/male pattern baldness and it's treatment but you do not seem to be able to appreciate that not everyone is as well-read or as intelligent as yourself.

You seem to actually get quite angry about very little things.

Maybe you need a little holiday away from all the hair-loss research?

 

[nohairnodandruff]

I believe dutasteride blocks both.

 

[Dave001]

Small point of pedantry: there is no type I or type II DHT. There is just DHT. Type I and type II refers to the two forms of the enzyme (enzymes anre proteins that speed up reactions in living organisms) 5-alpha reductase which converts free testosterone to dihydrotestosteron (DHT).

In response to the intended question: I think that in designing our regimens blocking DHT in the scalp should indeed be viewed separately to blocking it systemically. It seems unlikely that DHT performs *no* useful function, so totally systemically inhibiting both forms of 5AR (as dutasteride virtually achieves) *might* have consequences other than hair growth in the longer term.

But by all means, sticking to finasteride (inhibits just one form of 5AR systemically) and then adding one of the supposed topical DHT inhibitors (spironolactone, fludidil, etc.) is another weapon those who can afford it might want to consider (the idea being that they do not have systemic effects). I say supposed as IMHO there's scant clinical evidence of their effectiveness toward male pattern baldness.

That depends whether you consider evidence of local antiandrogenic activity (LAA), or demonstration of both LAA and efficacy in treating androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia) important. E.g., topical spironolactone has strong evidence of LAA from topical use (which is the basis of its commercial use as a topical antiseborrheic and antiacne agent), but only a couple of clinical trials (admittedly of dubious quality) specifically for Androgenetic Alopecia. However, you did say "there's scant clinical evidence of their effectiveness toward male pattern baldness," so I can't really argue with that. My point is that direct evidence of clinical efficacy in Androgenetic Alopecia probably isn't terribly important for antiandrogens, though contrary evidence would be.

 

[Dave001]

Bryan,

I am aware DHT inhibitors, DHT Blockers, DHT I & DHT II are inaccurate expressions...that was my point in posting.

Ok, but nothing in your post suggested to me that was the case. I took it at face value.

Bryan, that was his implication when he said, "I don't think a topical DHT inhibitor exists. Topical Anti-Androgen?" However, I initially interpreted it the same way you did. It was only after his response to you that his intended meaning was apparent to me.

 

[Dave001]

Bryan,

[...]

You seem to actually get quite angry about very little things.

Maybe you need a little holiday away from all the hair-loss research?

Sorry, but the distinction he's trying to get people to make is an important one. Your post, OTOH, has a rude and sarcastic undertone that is unjustified.

 

[Petchsky]

Bryan,

[...]

You seem to actually get quite angry about very little things.

Maybe you need a little holiday away from all the hair-loss research?

Sorry, but the distinction he's trying to get people to make is an important one. Your post, OTOH, has a rude and sarcastic undertone that is unjustified.

Tut Tut Tut Neiltom.

Please bend over so i can insert this 18 inch cucumber up your a*** passage. Forget slippers and rulers across the buttocks, i like to get something shoved right up there...Ya know what i mean?

P.S This post is rude, slightly sarcastic, and inappropriate...but no real undertone, maybe a tad sadistic. mmmm