Best way of lowering DHT topically?

Hoppi

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I always thought it was Nizoral but apparently topically that only binds to receptors, and doesn't actually reduce the DHT.

I just bought this: http://www.hairstimulator.net/folliclestimulator.htm

so I'm sure that will have some effect, but may not be as potent as other treatments. So, what do we think is the best thing to put on to actually reduce scalp DHT levels? I may buy that next time when I'm out of the one I just bought :)

Hoppi!
 

Hoppi

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abcdefg said:
I would be suprised if that did anything for your hair.

Well we'll have to see won't we? I mean it's just a collection of nutrients coupled with natural hair stimulants and DHT inhibitors, that's all. I'll probably use the spray at first then maybe switch to the shampoo, or a similar DHT-reducing, nutrient-rich shampoo!

Hell it can't hurt right? It'll tide me through and will probably help to encourage my follicles.

But I'm still learning what more effective topical DHT reducers are, which is why I started this thread! :)
 

follicle84

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Based on my research and user feed back i would say ru58841 being number 1 then followed by flutimide and spironolactone.
 

Bryan

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follicle84 said:
Based on my research and user feed back i would say ru58841 being number 1 then followed by flutimide and spironolactone.

I believe he's only talking about substances which reduce DHT (5a-reductase inhibitors, in other words). RU58841 and flutamide don't do that. Not completely sure about spironolactone, but it's not known for that.
 

Hoppi

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Bryan said:
follicle84 said:
Based on my research and user feed back i would say ru58841 being number 1 then followed by flutimide and spironolactone.

I believe he's only talking about substances which reduce DHT (5a-reductase inhibitors, in other words). RU58841 and flutamide don't do that. Not completely sure about spironolactone, but it's not known for that.

Oh, am I right in saying that most things bind to receptors, not actually REDUCE dht as such? I mean that's fine, maybe I just misunderstood and thought some things worked differently to the way they do.

Topical Flutamide and spironolactone bind to receptors? or? I'm wary of RU58841 of course as it's expensive and untested ._.

Sorry for all the questions - all this is really helping though and I'm better learning every day how to combat this! :)
 

Bryan

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Hoppi said:
Oh, am I right in saying that most things bind to receptors, not actually REDUCE dht as such? I mean that's fine, maybe I just misunderstood and thought some things worked differently to the way they do.

Topical Flutamide and spironolactone bind to receptors? or? I'm wary of RU58841 of course as it's expensive and untested ._.

Okay, I'm now going to give you a basic primer on drugs and chemicals that are often discussed on hairloss sites like this one -- drugs that reduce the androgenic stimulus in some way, shape, or fashion. They generally fall into two or three distinct categories, and sometimes there's a bit of overlap, since some drugs fall into more than one category. I'll make the following comments about them, in no particular order:

1) Androgen receptor blockers (these are also frequently called "antiandrogens"...either term is acceptable). These are substances which enter cells and bind to androgen receptors, thus preventing real androgens from binding to them. In that way, they reduce the extent to which any real androgenic stimulus can occur within the cell. Well-known examples of androgen receptor blockers include flutamide, casodex, RU58841, cyproterone acetate, and spironolactone.

2) 5a-Reductase inhibitors. These are substances which enter cells and bind to the enzyme 5a-reductase, preventing it from converting testosterone into DHT. Well-known examples of 5a-reductase inhibitors include finasteride and dutasteride. In general, a well-designed and clinically-useful 5a-reductase inhibitor wouldn't bind to androgen receptors, since if it _did_ do that, that would also make it an antiandrogen; that usually wouldn't be desirable. Finasteride and dutasteride have very very little affinity for the androgen receptor, which is why they're such useful drugs.

3) The term "DHT inhibitor" is just something made-up on hairloss sites; it has no real meaning among doctors and scientists, and isn't used in medical journals or medical textbooks. I recommend that people use the same terms used by doctors (see [1] and [2] above).

4) An early experimental drug by Merck was called by its familiar abbreviation "4MA". It was an azasteroid, and an early precursor to finasteride. It was successfully tested on stumptailed macaques, just like finasteride, and found to fight male pattern baldness. Unfortunately, in addition to being a 5a-reductase inhibitor, it was also found to have antiandrogenic properties (it binds to androgen receptors), which is almost certainly why no further development was done on it.

5) There's a third kind of drug which can reduce the androgenic stimulus in the human body, and it's anything that chemically interferes with the production of testosterone in the testes. Examples of that would be ketoconazole and spironolactone. Significant systemic doses of either one of those drugs can reduce levels of testosterone in the blood. (Notice that the action of systemic spironolactone is spread over at least a couple of different categories: it's both an androgen receptor blocker, and a drug which interferes with testosterone production. It may even conceivably act as a 5a-reductase inhibitor, at least according to one study I've found.)

6) There's still another way I can think of to reduce androgenic stimulation, but let's keep all this as simple as possible! :)
 

Hoppi

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Thanks Bryan that's quite fascinating actually (my usual attitude to most problems is the better I understand them, the better equipped I am to have success :) ).

And sorry if I've ever used the term "DHT inhibitor", I was aware it wasn't really scientifically accurate! Sometimes it just represents a kind of broad shorthand, but I'm getting better with the terminology lol

So, why is it so bad for a drug like Finasteride to also bind to the receptors? Is it because this just spreads out it's influence too much, and it's better focussed on one thing? Or is it worse for the body systemically? Sorry for my ignorance :)

And topical Ketaconazole... is that doing the same job as Flutamide for example, or something different? Maybe I could back it up with some kind of receptor blocker, if that's not what it's doing already.

I'm mainly trying to identify the best things to use topically to reduce the DHT around my follicles! For now I am faaaiiirly happy with Nizoral most likely their shampoo/conditioner (it's mostly natural substances, so they may not be QUITE as potent but, it'll be a nice mild, natural and nutrient-rich wash for my hair and scalp with some mild natural DHT reducing things!) :)

Does it look ok to you? I know it's mild but, yeah I'm sure you understand my reasoning for looking at it :) http://www.hairstimulator.net/thickshampoo.htm


Thanks a lot man, I'm learning a lot and I'm mega confident now that my hair will be fantastic in no time! ^_^
 

rcom440

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Hoppi said:
I know it's mild but, yeah I'm sure you understand my reasoning for looking at it :) http://www.hairstimulator.net/thickshampoo.htm


"It combines scientifically balanced natural herbs, minerals, amino acid, essential oils and copper peptides to block DHT and create thicker, fuller healthy hair." ... :thumbdown2:

o.k. but where is entire ingredient list? It does contain copper peptides but weather copper peptides "block" DHT is not knows.
If I were you I would rather use Hair Signals or Dr. Proctor's Prox-N.
 

Bryan

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Hoppi said:
And sorry if I've ever used the term "DHT inhibitor", I was aware it wasn't really scientifically accurate! Sometimes it just represents a kind of broad shorthand, but I'm getting better with the terminology lol

That wasn't really directed at YOU specifically, but at all the posters here who insist on using that expression. I've been complaining about it for several years.

Hoppi said:
So, why is it so bad for a drug like Finasteride to also bind to the receptors? Is it because this just spreads out it's influence too much, and it's better focussed on one thing? Or is it worse for the body systemically? Sorry for my ignorance :)

Men can't normally use systemic antiandrogens, because there are simply too many side effects. They would normally only be used for very serious diseases like prostate cancer.

Hoppi said:
And topical Ketaconazole... is that doing the same job as Flutamide for example, or something different?

Yes, ketoconazole has been shown to be an androgen receptor blocker. However, it remains uncertain whether or not that really is the way that Nizoral Shampoo (allegedly) helps fight male pattern baldness.

Hoppi said:
I'm mainly trying to identify the best things to use topically to reduce the DHT around my follicles! For now I am faaaiiirly happy with Nizoral most likely their shampoo/conditioner (it's mostly natural substances, so they may not be QUITE as potent but, it'll be a nice mild, natural and nutrient-rich wash for my hair and scalp with some mild natural DHT reducing things!) :)

Does it look ok to you? I know it's mild but, yeah I'm sure you understand my reasoning for looking at it :) http://www.hairstimulator.net/thickshampoo.htm

Dunno. They don't really specify the things that are in it, but I'm hoping it'll help you.
 

rcom440

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helpwithhair said:
If this stuff does include copper peptides then it looks great value for money

yes but the question is how much of the copper peptides it contains and what is quality of that cp.
 

Hoppi

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Yeah you are right rcom440.

However, I mean this company makes at least one product that according to a lot of testimonials (and logic really, as the ingredients look great) really makes a big difference. They are growing on me and although I don't trust them enough to start replacing my finasteride/Beta-Sitosterol and Nizoral combination with their tablets and shampoo respectively, I think I trust them enough to use their products to backup my regimen :)

And thank you again very much Bryan for all the information, this thread has really cleared a lot of things up for me :)

It's always good to feel you can make informed decisions! ^_^
 

Le Vigan

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But the original question wasn't answered! What is the best way to lower DHT topically? Or what amounts to the same thing, what is the best product to maintain hair topically?
 

bezerra

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Le Vigan said:
But the original question wasn't answered! What is the best way to lower DHT topically? Or what amounts to the same thing, what is the best product to maintain hair topically?

The best product would be one that contains topical Flutamide and/or topical Dutasteride. In Brazil we've the Gel FF (Flutamide and Finasteride) Lipossomed.
 

dpdr

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bezerra said:
Le Vigan said:
But the original question wasn't answered! What is the best way to lower DHT topically? Or what amounts to the same thing, what is the best product to maintain hair topically?

The best product would be one that contains topical Flutamide and/or topical Dutasteride. In Brazil we've the Gel FF (Flutamide and Finasteride) Lipossomed.

Eae bezerra :)

The topic is RU58841, followed by Flutamide and the S5 Cream
 

bezerra

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dpdr said:
bezerra said:
Le Vigan said:
But the original question wasn't answered! What is the best way to lower DHT topically? Or what amounts to the same thing, what is the best product to maintain hair topically?

The best product would be one that contains topical Flutamide and/or topical Dutasteride. In Brazil we've the Gel FF (Flutamide and Finasteride) Lipossomed.

Eae bezerra :)

The topic is RU58841, followed by Flutamide and the S5 Cream

RU 58841 é inviável pra nós hahaha

translation: the book is on the table
 

Hoppi

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rcom440 said:
the best -

RU 58841!

it probably is the best yes but the problem is it's expensive and untested :(

Isn't it?

So... is it Flutamide followed by S5? And are we counting Nizoral/Ketaconazole in this? Where would that come?

If Ketaconazole isn't better then why is it one of the "big 3"? I guess it could also be cost or availability?
 

rcom440

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Hoppi said:
rcom440 said:
the best -

RU 58841!

it probably is the best yes but the problem is it's expensive and untested :(

Isn't it?

So... is it Flutamide followed by S5? And are we counting Nizoral/Ketaconazole in this? Where would that come?

If Ketaconazole isn't better then why is it one of the "big 3"? I guess it could also be cost or availability?

Ketaconazole is widely available.
It's believed to inhibit the pathway that leads to the characteristic miniaturization of hair follicles in androgenetic alopecia by inhibiting DHT and/or inhibiting the binding of DHT to AR.
It also has anti-inflammatory effect

RU 58841 is used by many people already with great results but it is expensive and hard to get.

When it comes to Flutamide, I would be careful with this drug.
 
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