Bayer Prolactin Receptor Antibody For Male And Female Pattern Hair Loss

John Difool

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Right, some people were aware of these issues and hoped that SMI overcomes them
(edit: I do question how many of the participants actually were aware of this, given the attempts in this thread to chill discussion)

Not saying that's dumb, I just don't see how that's likely in the absence of dosage and pk information unless explicitly accounted for in a group experiment...

These quotes demonstrate that you're effectively taking the uncertainties of one preclinical drug (HMI) and multiplying them by those of another preclinical drug (SMI):
-"future structural modifications of SMI-6 should be undertaken so as to increase its therapeutic window"
-"This report represents an early pre-clinical phase"
-"should be further optimized and improved before it can be considered as therapeutics"
-"a more complete characterization of the pharmacodynamics and metabolic stability of SMI-6"
-"a determination of its oral deliverability"
-"resolution of the exact mechanism which governs the PRLR independent anti-tumorigenic action of SMI-6"
That doesn't sound unusual from an early drug. I am personally on 3 drugs that have this limitation today. People from this forum experimenting with those today is again, the true value of this community. Of mice and men. We won't let the rodents have it only if it has potential on us too. We just want to know earlier than the labs can move things. Bravo people.
 

John Difool

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You think oral finasteride is enough for preservation in the meantime?
that's a very loaded question.Some folks who start balding can stay nw0 for at least a decade on it. So yes, it's possible. Or minoxidil, or both or the big 3, etc. It all depends how your hair loss is aggressive and when you are catching up with it. There are no miracles today. Some people are forced to use heavier weapons to fight Androgenetic Alopecia.

Deal with future hair treatment and its promises the same way as you are anticipating the release of a movie you enjoyed the story in writing: don't set your expectations too high, so you save yourself from being disappointed.
 

John Difool

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(although somehow there are people with routines like RU + E2 on this site...always wondered what got them there)

Even if anecdotal, the regrowth of hair on HRT is quite impressive. HRT has become the Hollywood of hair treatment and going that road for hair dysphoria is of course a big commitment similar to gender dysphoria. Except that the sides you get are undesirable and hard to overcome if you do it just for your hair only. Cis men would prefer to look more like Fabio than Caitlyn Jenner.

Similar to finasteride and Duta, these same folks are trying to take the unwanted feminization out of HRT by going topical therefore hoping E2 to be as effective without any visible or sexual sides. Just the hair baby! What is not well understood is that the blood serum level of E2 needed for growing hair doesn't necessarily end up being the equivalent as to what is needed on your scalp to accomplish the same. More trials will help figure this one. I am interested about the trend of micro-dosing E2 that some folks are trying on this forum using the goldilocks principle.

Today, based on anecdotal evidences and my own experience, I would not recommend E2 topical because it seems to not work that great after all, or at least till we understand the dose that works best on the scalp. On the other hand, E3 has promoted regrowth without much sides. This would be my choice as a cis.
 

hmmmmmmmm

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That doesn't sound unusual from an early drug. I am personally on 3 drugs that have this limitation today.
But what's much rarer is casually combining the uncertainties of two separate preclinical drugs...usually you buy the one that directly had the promising effect

those quotes I extracted were basically the SMI researchers saying "you'd be crazy to assume this does anything like what our study observed in humans, and you can't possibly figure out the dosage even if it does. Wait for replication"

but I completely understand the viewpoint that there could be such a large payoff it's worth a try
Some people are forced to use heavier weapons to fight Androgenetic Alopecia.
(mostly) everyone regrows or maintains hair using the exact same common validated treatments, then throws in a few experiments based on where they ended up after that and according to their ambition/risk tolerance

so I don't view e.g. estradiol use as a "heavier weapon", because it doesn't really meet my threshold for evidence given the downsides.
just like SMI and WAY didn't.

estradiol is just what you use when you've got nothing else left to try after being given the false impression from the forum that:
-MtF miracle regrowth is something not possible with conventional treatments (we've all seen hyper-responders to finasteride/min that argues against this point)
-it's more common to make larger recoveries on (MtF forums actually make it seem like most results look exactly like finasteride/min, with maybe 5-10% getting much more - with no way to know if that's even slightly representative)
 

John Difool

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Er, I am not recommending E2 topical at this time. I am recommending E3 topical. Not sure what part of my post you missed. HRT E2 pills and injections sure why not, but you have to know what you are doing and what you will get.

Can you please re-read what I wrote?

PS: I noticed you are always replying to people in a way that shows you didn't read carefully what they wrote before and playing with the ambiguities to make things even more confusing. Can you please try to stop that? It is irritating and doesn't bring you in a positive light.
 

hmmmmmmmm

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Er, I am not recommending E2 topical at this time. I am recommending E3 topical. Not sure what part of my post you missed. HRT E2 pills and injections sure why not, but you have to know what you are doing and what you will get.

Can you please re-read what I wrote?
I never suggested you're recommending estrogen? Maybe it's you that misread my posts?
Just saying that if somebody takes it, they're at the point where they've decided to start relying on mostly anecdotal (poor) evidence

my post was in reply only to the two posts it explicitly referenced, not the newer post right which I hadn't yet seen...I'll reply to a couple points from it now:
Even if anecdotal, the regrowth of hair on HRT is quite impressive
[...]
On the other hand, E3 has promoted regrowth without much sides
[...]
I am interested about the trend of micro-dosing E2 that some folks are trying on this forum using the goldilocks principle
While these type of personal observations are obviously more valid to yourself, as you point out it doesn't have much support on an objective level

I'm a lot less excited about attempts to microdose E2 because there's no particular reason to believe it can't easily hurt hair more than help, or that anecdotal evidence will be of higher quality than we normally get...
 
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hmmmmmmmm

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PS: I noticed you are always replying to people in a way that shows you didn't read carefully what they wrote before and playing with the ambiguities to make things even more confusing. Can you please try to stop that? It is irritating and doesn't bring you in a positive light.
This thread is me trying to be excessively clear with my points to prevent misquoting, to the point of being very longwinded

I quote specific extracts from comments when possible to remove ambiguity, which generally isn't the case in replies to me
edit: e.g. can you find any reference to me suggesting that you're recommending anything? Let alone specifically recommending E2 or E3?

And frankly I don't think a thread where I've had to argue the merit of basic things that I know people replying actually do understand is showing them in a good light

I'm supposed to believe you and @pegasus2 don't understand the importance of placebo groups or statistical significance? Or the weaknesses of anecdotal evidence? Or how a working drug might still never come to market?
 
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pegasus2

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Autism is strong itt. Shame. Every thread gets ruined eventually on this site
 

hmmmmmmmm

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Autism is strong itt. Shame. Every thread gets ruined eventually on this site
tbh if I had arrived sooner, I might have been able to save a bunch of people wasting their time and money on SMI
 

John Difool

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And what are you doing to save their hair? bashing everything under the sun but broccoli sprouts? It's getting slightly tiresome. I am starting to feel that reading @bluecyclone posts wasn't that bad actually.
 

hmmmmmmmm

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just want to highlight the basic scientific error in this comment, because it appeared a few times in the thread unchallenged:
You fail to understand that the difference in hair weight here is minor, and amounts to only a few hairs. HMI-115 increased hair counts by the hundreds per cm2. That is so far above what is needed to eliminate any noise from seasonal changes that we don't have to see a control to know it worked
Normally a result that's wildly incongruent with all existing hair treatments would justify more scrutiny, not less

yet here's it's being argued that the incongruent result itself can be used to dismiss the need for the very things that could have helped confirm or reject it independently...

this is just circular reasoning with a paint job
 

hmmmmmmmm

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And what are you doing to save their hair? bashing everything under the sun but broccoli sprouts? It's getting slightly tiresome. I am starting to feel that reading @bluecyclone posts wasn't that bad actually.
I guess I'm saving their hair by pointing out really obvious mistakes that can get you to the point of thinking things like SMI or WAY or E2 microdosing have a reasonable chance of working?

The opportunity cost alone of trying SMI is not zero - what if people on it could have spent their time or money on validated treatment?

Or something that would have a higher chance of payoff like a lottery ticket?

edit: Do you really think you're "saving" people's hair here? wtf
 
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pegasus2

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tbh if I had arrived sooner, I might have been able to save a bunch of people wasting their time and money on SMI
You're a hero
 

pegasus2

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I guess I'm saving their hair by pointing out really obvious mistakes that can get you to the point of thinking things like SMI or WAY or E2 microdosing have a reasonable chance of working?

The opportunity cost alone of trying SMI is not zero - what if people on it could have spent their time or money on validated treatment?

Or something that would have a higher chance of payoff like a lottery ticket?
Everyone on it was already on validated treatments or refused them for whatever reason you weirdo. I'm the first person to tell people that they should first use finasteride/dutasteride, minoxidil and microneedling. I'm also the first to tell people that studies need a control group. I'm also not a robot so I can understand how the HMI study is very promising even without a control group. I also raised more questions about SMI, WAY, and even ARV than you did. You can't say I tricked anyone into anything. We had an honest and open discussion on the group buy discord, which everyone who was a part of the group buy could read and participate in. I raised several concerns myself as did others. Ultimately we decided it was worth a try, and it was. Screenshot_20211124-212446_Brave.jpg

This fool keeps saying HMI is lying about the results, but HMI paid Bayer for the rights to the drug after conducting the study at the IMM. Why would they manipulate data to make it appear that it worked and then buy the rights to a drug that doesn't work? It makes zero sense. They bought the rights to it because they saw the drug work with their own eyes. Rui-Ping is a lot smarter than Hmmm, and she believed strongly enough in the evidence shown for the drug in the "flawed" macaque trial that she created a new company just to buy the rights to it. I guess she is also an idiot who doesn't understand the scientific method :rolleyes:
 
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John Difool

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it says that on your regimen: oral min, topical min + tretinoin, dermarolling, stemoxydine, Ketoconazole shampoo, topical sulforaphane, oral NAC

So I can understand your posts better now.

Are you using the 1.2g NAC dosage from that study?
 

jan_miezda

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for group testing of any other non-androgenic pathway treatments, I'd normally agree

but a DIY experiment with HMI (and thus SMI) has completely different starting priors that make it much easier than testing e.g. SM0554:
1. can grow hair in completely bald areas
2. strong effect timeframe is 3-6 months
3. works in almost everyone
4. no obvious notable safety concerns

under those assumptions, even a single person should be able to make a guess at a starting oral/topical/injection dosage and keep escalating it every few months, periodically checking to see if their temples actually grow any new terminal hairs...

and with 20 people and 12 months (changing doses every 2 months) you could test out 100+ different dosages and see if even a single person who's maxed out on other treatments grows hair, to confirm that SMI works...

and if 12 months goes by and nobody has results, assume it doesn't work

that just sounds so costly for the small chance of it working
 

hmmmmmmmm

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that just sounds so costly for the small chance of it working
agreed yeah, under more realistic assumptions it's an obvious pass

but using their listed assumptions, it could be a reasonable thing to try...

and then their logic quickly stops making sense again - why go to all the trouble of buying it and then put near zero effort into testing it?
to the point of literally not even trying to track how many people are using SMI? wtf


edit:
my pet theory is people just want the dopamine hit of another group buy...which doesn't really matter past the point where you pay and is reflected in the planning and execution of all these buys
 

John Difool

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agreed yeah, under more realistic assumptions it's an obvious pass

but using their listed assumptions, it could be a reasonable thing to try...

and then their logic quickly stops making sense again - why go to all the trouble of buying it and then put near zero effort into testing it?
to the point of literally not even trying to track how many people are using SMI? wtf
Don't worry Charlie, there are still people in the group that you joined and left, testing SMI right now, just for you to know if it works or not one day. So you can add it to your NAC and sulforaphane topical.

Even if you blasted this thing with so much negativity, that didn't deter some people to pursue the program. And people who decided to put their own money in and take the risk unlike you lazy bunch who sit in this forum leeching away what is coming out of the community. They didn't listen to your rants and diatribes. Isn't it amazing? So hang on in here, keep posting your prognosis, sit back and relax.
 

hmmmmmmmm

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it says that on your regimen: oral min, topical min + tretinoin, dermarolling, stemoxydine, Ketoconazole shampoo, topical sulforaphane, oral NAC
So I can understand your posts better now.
not directed at you in particular...but IMO credibility on these forums is completed inverted:
people who've tried 30 different chemicals in just a few years should have less credibility, not more

it's a sign of desperation and lack of overall strategy to follow the "more is better" mindset
(and especially the "more obscure is better" mindset)

I don't understand how this is applauded:
some people's entire routines are experiments, frequently changing to include things that barely show up in Google...

the true measure should be "are you maintaining, losing, or growing hair?" If you can do it with 3 things that's a lot more impressive than 20
 
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hmmmmmmmm

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Don't worry Charlie, there are still people in the group that you joined and left, testing SMI right now, just for you to know if it works or not one day

Even if you blasted this thing with so much negativity, that didn't deter some people to pursue the program. And people who decided to put their own money in and take the risk unlike you lazy bunch who sit in this forum leeching away what is coming out of the community. They didn't listen to your rants and diatribes. Isn't it amazing? So hang on in here, keep posting your prognosis, sit back and relax.
it's not "lazy" to avoid using something you don't think works
it's not "leeching" to need better evidence of something
taking an unnecessary "risk" has no virtue

that you view pretty soft criticism in a research thread as some kind of a threat worth neutralizing is kind of sad
nobody is stopping you from trying SMI, eat as much as you want
 
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