Any reason to ever stop rogaine?

[H2O]

This whole offset business seems logical and that analogy was great. However, since starting Rogaine, I lose hardly ANY hair while showering (as opposed to over 100 per shower before). It seems like more than an offset.
i.e., I lose less hair than any NW1 person does.

I take that with a grain or two of salt. There are too many variables involved to draw very many conclusions about daily hair "loss". I wish people would quit talking about it.

Bryan

Sorry I've been away from the computer for a few weeks...but I did want to re-emphasize what Brian is saying here. Tembo...you reference your personal experience of "...since starting Rogaine, I lose hardly ANY hair while showering." However, when looking at your treatment details you started propecia 2 weeks before starting minoxidil. This just highlights what Bryan was stating. There are so many variables, including other concurrent drug treatments, that going solely off of personal experience it is difficult to attribute results to one specific treatment factor or another. That is why Bryan and others base their information on published clinical trials. It is within these trials that (most of the time) extraneous variables are controlled and selectively removed from the trial and resulting data. The moral is...just be careful when basing any conclusions off of personal experience...

 

[Balding_1]

I gotta disagree with you Bryan when you say minoxidil "doesnt appear to interfere with the fundamentla balding process." According to a recent study on the workings of minoxidil, originally posted by Michael Barry, minoxidil does a lot more than just regrow "a little more hair." Heres Michaels post on why...

Bryan,


The authors wrote: ".......but the most plausible explanation proposed here is that minoxidil works as a sulfonylurea receptor (SUR) activator and prolongs the anagen phase of hair follicles in the following manner: minoxidil (1) induces cell growth factors such as VEGF, HGF, IGF-1 and potentiates HGF and IGF-1 actions by the activation of uncoupled SUR on the plasma membrane of dermal papilla cells, (2) inhibits of TGF beta induced apoptosis of hair matrix cells by opening the Kir 6.0 channel pore coupled with SUR on the mitochondrial inner membrane, and (3) dilates hair follicle arteries and increases blood flow in dermal papilla by opening the Kir 6.0 channel pore coupled with SUR on the plasma membrane of vascular smooth muscle cells "


It appears that minoxidil: counteracts TGF-beta to some extent, and this probably leads to less collagen getting deposited around the follicle which makes it hard for microcapillaries to reach it.

It also appears minoxidil opens potassium channels which help cellular communication in follicle cells.

It also appears that minoxidil dialates hair follicles arteries and increases papilla blood flow.

It also appears in other literature that minoxidil fights the hardening and crosslinking of collagen fibers in the connective tissue sheath and root sheath like aminexil also supposedly does

It also appears that minoxidil induces cell growth factors such as VEGF, HGF, IGF-1 and potentiates HGF and IGF-1 actions by the activation of uncoupled SUR on the plasma membrane of dermal papilla cells.......



Thats a hell of an effect on hair isnt it? Keratinocyte growth factor might be "just a stimulant", but minoxidil appears to do so much thats good for affected head hair in AA, its hard to just say its a plain ol' hypertrichotic isn't it? It may not fight baldness on as many fronts as prox-n, but for the price its a hell of a tool for young guys looking to hold onto what they have in my opinion.



By the way...........I looked around a tad and couldn't find anything that supposedly counteracts FGF-5 and thrombo-whatever, which are listed as negative growth factors released by papilla cells to other hair cells.



Bryan, Im of the opinion that when we find exactly what the papilla releases to the rest of the follicle we will be in the business of attempting to counteract baldness at that level. Men without baldness have androgen receptors and DHT, but their papillas must do something different. Counteracting THAT, with no need to alter hormones in anyway, would be the most elegant solution to baldness "someday" in my opinion.

 

[Bryan]

I gotta disagree with you Bryan when you say minoxidil "doesnt appear to interfere with the fundamentla balding process." According to a recent study on the workings of minoxidil, originally posted by Michael Barry, minoxidil does a lot more than just regrow "a little more hair." Heres Michaels post on why...

[snip lengthy list of physiological effects possibly performed by minoxidil]

Thats a hell of an effect on hair isnt it? Keratinocyte growth factor might be "just a stimulant", but minoxidil appears to do so much thats good for affected head hair in AA, its hard to just say its a plain ol' hypertrichotic isn't it?

My statement wasn't based on theoretical considerations of how minoxidil possibly or probably works. It's based on simple EMPIRICAL OBSERVATIONS in several topical minoxidil studies showing that once minoxidil reaches its peak of regowth after a year or so, it almost inevitably begins a slow decline again at what appears to be the original rate of balding. So I don't have anything in particular to say about how minoxidil may or may not work, I'm just telling you that from ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with the drug, it appears to provide only an "offset of growth", as I like to call it, while the balding process apparently continues at its normal rate.

Bryan, Im of the opinion that when we find exactly what the papilla releases to the rest of the follicle we will be in the business of attempting to counteract baldness at that level. Men without baldness have androgen receptors and DHT, but their papillas must do something different. Counteracting THAT, with no need to alter hormones in anyway, would be the most elegant solution to baldness "someday" in my opinion.

I totally agree.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Bryan,

what about combining a drug like Avodart or Propecia with minoxidil? Balding will still continue but someone using both should be able to keep the minoxidil offset for a long time, and other hairs as well, right?

obviously minoxidil by itself will not do much but by combining that with dutasteride or finasteride plus an anti androgen like nizoral(Big 3) probably can keep the offset going for awhile and keep people above baseline a lot longer than they would have been by using only a 5ar inhibitor or only a vasodilator.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

what about combining a drug like Avodart or Propecia with minoxidil? Balding will still continue but someone using both should be able to keep the minoxidil offset for a long time, and other hairs as well, right?

Yes. Absolutely.

obviously minoxidil by itself will not do much but by combining that with dutasteride or finasteride plus an anti androgen like nizoral(Big 3) probably can keep the offset going for awhile and keep people above baseline a lot longer than they would have been by using only a 5ar inhibitor or only a vasodilator.

Well, certainly longer than using minoxidil alone (it bothers me a bit when someone refers to minoxidil as a "vasodilator" in a hairloss context! ). The antiandrogenic part of the treatment (I use the term loosely) is obviously more important in the long-term.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

As usual, bryan sets the record straight.

 

[Jojje]

Bryan,

what about combining a drug like Avodart or Propecia with minoxidil? Balding will still continue but someone using both should be able to keep the minoxidil offset for a long time, and other hairs as well, right?

Yes. Absolutely.

obviously minoxidil by itself will not do much but by combining that with dutasteride or finasteride plus an anti androgen like nizoral(Big 3) probably can keep the offset going for awhile and keep people above baseline a lot longer than they would have been by using only a 5ar inhibitor or only a vasodilator.

Well, certainly longer than using minoxidil alone (it bothers me a bit when someone refers to minoxidil as a "vasodilator" in a hairloss context! ). The antiandrogenic part of the treatment (I use the term loosely) is obviously more important in the long-term.

Bryan

 

[plusryan]

H20 I just wanted to say thanks for that Analogy/Metaphor, putting each product in that respect and function. Very informative.

and JOJ, that picture is HELLA FUNNY! :hairy:

 

[Artista]

So then one stops Rogaine when you see it's not making a difference anymore, or it's getting worse---- after of course giving it a couple of years to see a real difference?

 

[beaner]

So then one stops Rogaine when you see it's not making a difference anymore, or it's getting worse---- after of course giving it a couple of years to see a real difference?

No. If you stop treatment with minoxidil at any point, you will lose whatever gains you've made VERY quickly. Even if you THINK it's no longer working you may be in for a horrific suprise should you chose to quit. Everyone responds differently to minoxidil. I've been using it for 5 years and it's still very effective and I never noticed progression of male pattern baldness since I started.

 

[Brokenwall]

not to sound silly but on the side of the minoxidil case it says regrowth dosent last more than 48 weeks aka less than one year , this completely contradicts what ive been reading here...

 

[ShedMaster]

not to sound silly but on the side of the minoxidil case it says regrowth dosent last more than 48 weeks aka less than one year , this completely contradicts what ive been reading here...

where does it say this?

 

[Brokenwall]

on the 4 month pack's side.

 

[beaner]

not to sound silly but on the side of the minoxidil case it says regrowth dosent last more than 48 weeks aka less than one year , this completely contradicts what ive been reading here...

Maybe because the original trials for the product only lasted that long? The box also says it only works on the vertex and we all know that isn't true. All I know is it's going on 5 years and I'm still growing hair. God bless minoxidil.

 

[Brokenwall]

Oh good to hear that Beaner 8)

 

[beaner]

Oh good to hear that Beaner 8)

You're using finasteride as well so you may see really good results for a while. According to one of the graphs the average responder on combination of finasteride/minoxidil, the haircounts increased dramatically for 2 years before beginning a slow decline which was still way above baseline at 5 years. This is only an average so if you're a good responder you could very well have years of growth coming

 

[haunted-ballroom]

Oh good to hear that Beaner 8)

You're using finasteride as well so you may see really good results for a while. According to one of the graphs the average responder on combination of finasteride/minoxidil, the haircounts increased dramatically for 2 years before beginning a slow decline which was still way above baseline at 5 years. This is only an average so if you're a good responder you could very well have years of growth coming

Ok, ive seen this around so much but cant figure out what it is.....what is "baseline"? lol

 

[beaner]

Oh good to hear that Beaner 8)

You're using finasteride as well so you may see really good results for a while. According to one of the graphs the average responder on combination of finasteride/minoxidil, the haircounts increased dramatically for 2 years before beginning a slow decline which was still way above baseline at 5 years. This is only an average so if you're a good responder you could very well have years of growth coming

Ok, ive seen this around so much but cant figure out what it is.....what is "baseline"? lol

Baseline would be the state of your hair just before beginning any treatments.

 

[haunted-ballroom]

Oh good to hear that Beaner 8)

You're using finasteride as well so you may see really good results for a while. According to one of the graphs the average responder on combination of finasteride/minoxidil, the haircounts increased dramatically for 2 years before beginning a slow decline which was still way above baseline at 5 years. This is only an average so if you're a good responder you could very well have years of growth coming

Ok, ive seen this around so much but cant figure out what it is.....what is "baseline"? lol

Baseline would be the state of your hair just before beginning any treatments.

Oh! Staying above baseline for 5 years would be nice lol!

 

[Bryan]

not to sound silly but on the side of the minoxidil case it says regrowth dosent last more than 48 weeks aka less than one year , this completely contradicts what ive been reading here...

Well, I think that's actually TRUE, but you have to understand the scientific context in which that statement is made. If the "offset of growth" theory of topical minoxidil is correct, then once you achieve the peak of regrowth after about a year or so, balding then continues and haircounts start going down again at about the same general rate that they were going down prior to starting minoxidil. So in that very specific sense, yes, I think they are correct in saying that regrowth doesn't last more than 48 weeks for the average user.