An Idea: Topical Estrogen With Aromatase Inhibitors

[Ruby]

Transdermal estradiol dosages are generally lower than oral because it bypasses the liver and goes directly into the blood stream. If it works and you have no side effects stick with it. Just keep an eye on your Testosterone and SHBG levels.

Estradiol hemihydrate sublingual tablets also get a lot of the estradiol into your bloodstream more quickly, unlike the estradiol valerate tablets where the valerate ester must be processed by the liver first to strip the valerate off the molecules. I've been on the micronized estradiol valerate tablets taking them sublingually for nearly 6 weeks now, and about to switch to the hemihydrate sublingual tabs in a couple more weeks. Patches are right now practically unobtanium for DIY HRT and when they do show up in stock anywhere, they're overpriced, so for the time being, I'm stuck with oral E since I'm too chickenshit to inject myself. Gyno is starting to come on pretty noticable now, at about a quarter of an A cup, which I think is not too bad for only 6 weeks of HRT thus far.

BTW Lacy, your new avatar looks great. Wish I could rock a little red dress like that, but right now, I'd be awfully scary looking

Also about to get a small cyst cut out next week from under my skin right at the top of my sternum / bottom of my neck... right about where my cleavage will start (when it gets here) hoping that it won't leave any noticable scar there which would really suck when the day comes that I could wear low necklines. My surgeon is one of my closest personal friends, and he's extremely good, says it shouldn't leave a scar but I'm still worried.

 

[cyrusthegreat@hotmail.com]

Are there such things as exogenous biosimilar aromatase compounds that can be applied topically to the scalp to increase conversion of scalp T to E locally?

 

[whatevr]

Are there such things as exogenous biosimilar aromatase compounds that can be applied topically to the scalp to increase conversion of scalp T to E locally?

Good thinking. I'm not aware of anything like that though. I'll look into it later.

 

[BaldingHelpMe]

Castrates typically don't regrow the hair they already lost, so where do you think the lucky guys who get regrowth on Finasteride get that regrowth from? They have high E by nature, and the Propecia pushes them a little bit higher so their hair follicles get a boost. It ain't the DHT reduction, trust me Those are maintainers, at best.

Not true. When it comes to genetic hair loss, DHT plays an important role of damaging your hairs, getting rid of DHT is the only way to treat male pattern baldness right now.

Also the result you're seeing probably comes mainly from your finasteride taking, but you dropped it recently, so prepared to lose what you gained soon.

 

[whatevr]

Not true. When it comes to genetic hair loss, DHT plays an important role of damaging your hairs, getting rid of DHT is the only way to treat male pattern baldness right now.

Also the result you're seeing probably comes mainly from your finasteride taking, but you dropped it recently, so prepared to lose what you gained soon.

OK, I am literally triggered by your daftness right now.

What you're saying is that Finasteride magically decided to give me AMAZING regrowth 2 months after I quit it, but while I was taking it for 1 whole year I was losing hair the entire time? Yes, that makes f*****g sense.

Listen. I've been on Finasteride for one year, during that time, all throughout, I was steadily losing hair. I added minoxidil, got gains within 4 months. In the next 3 months, I lost FIFTY PERCENT of what I gained from minoxidil because of Finasteride

Right now, on Estradiol, in 43 days, I gained ALL that back, and then some. I have been getting regrowth the entire time, that I've never had on Propecia + minoxidil. Not just maintaining, but regrowth. If you had looked at pictures in my thread, you would see. I can show you pictures when my hair was on Propecia + minoxidil and you can compare that to the latest ones I posted in my thread. f***'s sake.

Propecia is not some kind of wonder drug, very few people get regrowth, and for many of them it doesn't even work.

Also, 'not true' ? What isn't true? Did you read what I wrote?

I said, the majority of people only get maintenance on Finasteride. The people who get regrowth are lucky.
REMOVING DHT ON ITS OWN CAN AT BEST PREVENT FURTHER HAIR LOSS AND NOT REGROW.
IF SOMEONE GETS REGROWTH ON FINASTERIDE ITS FROM THE ESTROGEN INCREASE AND NOT THE DHT REDUCTION.

Do you have proof otherwise, or do you just want to attack strawmen?

 

[BaldingHelpMe]

What you're saying is that Finasteride magically decided to give me AMAZING regrowth 2 months after I quit it, but while I was taking it for 1 whole year I was losing hair the entire time? Yes, that makes f*****g sense.


I said, the majority of people only get maintenance on Finasteride. The people who get regrowth are lucky.
REMOVING DHT ON ITS OWN CAN AT BEST PREVENT FURTHER HAIR LOSS AND NOT REGROW.
IF SOMEONE GETS REGROWTH ON FINASTERIDE ITS FROM THE ESTROGEN INCREASE AND NOT THE DHT REDUCTION.

Do you have proof otherwise, or do you just want to attack strawmen?

I know this does not make sense, but I've been on finasteride for over 12 years, just last year I switched to dutasteride, so I've been on 5ar inhibitors for over 13 years, I do know what I'm talking about. For those finasteride doesnt work for them, dutasteride will. For genetic hair loss, some kind of 5ar inhibitor is needed.

Hair takes very long time to grow, so it may just be a coinsidence that you were just starting to see result right when you dropped it.

But then I might be wrong, only time will tell. For me, I'll never dare to drop finasteride/dutasteride. Last year when I switched to dutasteride, I was shedding heavily, even then, I kept at it, did not switch back to finasteride, and one day shedding suddenly stopped, and I'm starting to see result now.

It's your hair, so you decide. I'm just trying to warn you that you need either finasteride or dutasteride.

 

[stachu]

you're some way wrong whatevr. the "Fantastic" Regrowth on finasteride doesnt depend only on raising estrogen. But decreasing enough body dht will make a opening gates for revitalizing finally killed follicle. Like Your Bloodstream has been finally plugged to your old dhted follicle and forcing vitamins and sh*t to make it alive again - lets just say like this. However, people think that they maintain hairs on finasteride - Well No, there are two ways. You're REDUCED hairloss acceleration OR you're made it enough to start your body making it REVERSE. You cant stop your hairloss on SOME level. You're going left, or right. But question is, which speed?

Its not that i am saying you're WRONG. Because i do really belive estrogen is also a key here. But clearly not on this point. Cheers.

Lets say you're NW2. Like the hairs on temples and receded hairline are destroyed. - They actually cant pop out on finasteride, since your hairloss progressing these areas are mostly destroyed and sieged by DHT. - But try hop on dutasteride at NW2. Probably you gonna regrowth to NW0 after half or year.

We need to check your teory now, if its true hats off. But how many estrogen is raised on dutasteride then? (30%?) Is the ratio close to Estr 1 : 1 Dht - making hairloss tottaly reverse?

Since studies shows 15% estrogen raise on finasteride (70% dht inhibit) so how many it gonna raise on dutasteride?

 

[whatevr]

you're some way wrong whatevr. the "Fantastic" Regrowth on finasteride doesnt depend only on raising estrogen. But decreasing enough body dht will make a opening gates for revitalizing finally killed follicle. Like Your Bloodstream has been finally plugged to your old dhted follicle and forcing vitamins and sh*t to make it alive again - lets just say like this. However, people think that they maintain hairs on finasteride - Well No, there are two ways. You're REDUCED hairloss acceleration OR you're made it enough to start your body making it REVERSE. You cant stop your hairloss on SOME level. You're going left, or right. But question is, which speed?

Its not that i am saying you're WRONG. Because i do really belive estrogen is also a key here. But clearly not on this point. Cheers.

Lets say you're NW2. Like the hairs on temples and receded hairline are destroyed. - They actually cant pop out on finasteride, since your hairloss progressing these areas are mostly destroyed and sieged by DHT. - But try hop on dutasteride at NW2. Probably you gonna regrowth to NW0 after half or year.

We need to check your teory now, if its true hats off. But how many estrogen is raised on dutasteride then? (30%?) Is the ratio close to Estr 1 : 1 Dht - making hairloss tottaly reverse?

Since studies shows 15% estrogen raise on finasteride (70% dht inhibit) so how many it gonna raise on dutasteride?

I get what you're saying. Of course that removing the damaging factor (DHT) will enable the hair follicle to regenerate much easier, otherwise it's like calling the repair crew while the house is still on fire.

But, I meant that for people who get regrowth on Finasteride, it's because they have let's say high estrogen levels by nature. And when Finasteride increases those levels some more, that's when that "threshold" you are talking about tips into favor of noticeable hair regrowth, rather than just very very slow hair loss or very very slow growth. I guess you can think about a Estrogen : DHT ratio. If you tip that enough into favor of estrogen the hairs will have enough stimulation to regrow. Like:

Estrogen: DHT < 1.0 = Very fast hair loss
Estrogen: DHT < 2.0 = Slow hair loss
Estrogen: DHT ~ 2.0 = Maintenance
Estrogen: DHT > 2.0 = Very slow regrowth
Estrogen: DHT > 3.0 = Awesome regrowth

But for the majority of people on Finasteride they only improve this ratio so little that they get just maintenance. And for those who estrogen goes up high they are the ones who get regrowth. Because the ratio improves more favorably for them. It's a bit simplified, but that's the idea.

 

[whatevr]

It's your hair, so you decide. I'm just trying to warn you that you need either finasteride or dutasteride.

Perhaps, what you're forgetting though is that estrogen itself is an anti-androgen. Not quite up to par with Finasteride, 60% vs 86%, but it still does that very same job when it hits the hair follicle topically. When you apply estrogen you're basically applying something like CB-03-01, but at the same time you also get all the estrogenic effects on the hair follicle like activation of nuclear receptors that antiandrogens do not give you, which stimulates regrowth.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11358723

 

[cyrusthegreat@hotmail.com]

Aside from just the increase of E as a result of increased T from finasteride or dutasteride, is the distribution of aromatase expression in the scalp. I'm guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people have more of this expressed at different parts of the scalp, which could explain why some men on finasteride or dutasteride regrow at crown, some at hair line, some everywhere, some not at all. If a guy has very little expression of aromatase in the scalp then even the 150% T increase in the scalp from 2.5mg daily dutasteride won't help him regrow much. So when scalp T is increased from these drugs, if the person has high enough density of aromatase expression at the hairline, then they may experience regrowth there due to increased local E. Systemic E increase effects on hair I don't know about.

This idea of variable expression of aromatase in the scalp has been given as a possible explanation of why women with fphl usually keep the hairline, but thin behind it. That is, they experience more T to E conversion at those sites than T to DHT.

 

[whatevr]

Aside from just the increase of E as a result of increased T from finasteride or dutasteride, is the distribution of aromatase expression in the scalp. I'm guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people have more of this expressed at different parts of the scalp, which could explain why some men on finasteride or dutasteride regrow at crown, some at hair line, some everywhere, some not at all. If a guy has very little expression of aromatase in the scalp then even the 150% T increase in the scalp from 2.5mg daily dutasteride won't help him regrow much. So when scalp T is increased from these drugs, if the person has high enough density of aromatase expression at the hairline, then they may experience regrowth there due to increased local E. Systemic E increase effects on hair I don't know about.

This idea of variable expression of aromatase in the scalp has been given as a possible explanation of why women with fphl usually keep the hairline, but thin behind it. That is, they experience more T to E conversion at those sites than T to DHT.

These are all things very few people talk about. No one here has been able to explain why I can regrow on low dose topical estrogen but failed to even maintain on Propecia. Who knows what's going on in my scalp? I'd really love to know the scientific explanation but unless someone does a biopsy of my hair follicles I will probably never know. Once you consider cases like this you can see a lot of different treatment options. It pains me to think a lot of people would just throw their hands up in the air once Propecia and Dutasteride show to be ineffective for them.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

These are all things very few people talk about. No one here has been able to explain why I can regrow on low dose topical estrogen but failed to even maintain on Propecia. Who knows what's going on in my scalp? I'd really love to know the scientific explanation but unless someone does a biopsy of my hair follicles I will probably never know. Once you consider cases like this you can see a lot of different treatment options. It pains me to think a lot of people would just throw their hands up in the air once Propecia and Dutasteride show to be ineffective for them.

There are several reports now of finasteride not helping people. I think the best explanation is that DHT is just one possible and/or incomplete route to baldness, and there may be one or a few others.

 

[whatevr]

There are several reports now of finasteride not helping people. I think the best explanation is that DHT is just one possible and/or incomplete route to baldness, and there may be one or a few others.

I'm actually glad it's like this for me though. I never liked the idea of taking Finasteride. I feel much more comfortable putting estrogen on my head than Finasteride in my body, it is what it is. At least estrogen doesn't screw with my brain chemistry.

 

[Ruby]

Well, I got my Estrogel and switched from finasteride to dutasteride, so I guess I'll be a guinea pig of sorts. Though my regimen is absolutely not for the cisgendered man, maybe at least it'll provide some insight to whether this particular concentration of estradiol (approx 10x higher than Alpicort F) applied topically gives any significant boost, but since the timing of this regimen change also includes a switchover from one AA to another, so it ain't really any scientific test of the effects of Estrogel on the scalp at all. Sorry, but I'm desperate for results and the upholding of the scientific method has to take a back seat for this experiment. I do have a pic of my scalp from back in September, and another from about a week ago, and near the end of November, I'll take another one. I can't post them yet because seeing them is so depressing it completely trashes any trace of self-esteem I might have. I hope y'all will understand that.

I've cut my oral estradiol from 4mg daily (2mg every 12 hours) to a single 2mg in the morning, and 2.5g estrogel on the scalp in the evening, since 2.5g Estrogel puts roughly the same amount of estradiol into your bloodstream as 2mg of oral estradiol hemihydrate. Dutasteride is 0.5mg once a day in the morning. Minoxidil 5% is still 2-3ml twice a day, and Nizoral 2% is 2 or 3 times a week. We'll see how that goes.

 

[wannamyhairback]

I get what you're saying. Of course that removing the damaging factor (DHT) will enable the hair follicle to regenerate much easier, otherwise it's like calling the repair crew while the house is still on fire.

But, I meant that for people who get regrowth on Finasteride, it's because they have let's say high estrogen levels by nature. And when Finasteride increases those levels some more, that's when that "threshold" you are talking about tips into favor of noticeable hair regrowth, rather than just very very slow hair loss or very very slow growth. I guess you can think about a Estrogen : DHT ratio. If you tip that enough into favor of estrogen the hairs will have enough stimulation to regrow. Like:

Estrogen: DHT < 1.0 = Very fast hair loss
Estrogen: DHT < 2.0 = Slow hair loss
Estrogen: DHT ~ 2.0 = Maintenance
Estrogen: DHT > 2.0 = Very slow regrowth
Estrogen: DHT > 3.0 = Awesome regrowth

But for the majority of people on Finasteride they only improve this ratio so little that they get just maintenance. And for those who estrogen goes up high they are the ones who get regrowth. Because the ratio improves more favorably for them. It's a bit simplified, but that's the idea.

i have estrdiol level is higher than range (after 10 month propecia usage) and my shedding rate is just driving me nut

 

[AndrewBarnes]

You're making me paranoid and thinking that part of propecia 's strength is it raises estrogen by 15%.

It could be but like you said it's only partly. Otherwise, people taking TRT would experience less hair loss but that's obviously not the case due to the increase in Test and DHT

 

[Baldy1]

Any updates? Has anyone tried this yet?

 

[Baldy1]

What about using a SERM (tamoxifen, Raloxifen, etc) with topical estradiol?