An Idea: Topical Estrogen With Aromatase Inhibitors

[whatevr]

(repost after forum rollback)

I used to read a lot about topical estrogens in the past and usually online forums came to the conclusion that it's not very helpful for male hair loss.

This was my first clue that often times forums come to a bullshit conclusion that casts aside a very legitimate treatment option, because I respond VERY well to topical estrogen (makes me wonder how many other treatments that could've been helpful have been nuked on forums and no one tried them as a result).

Unfortunately they also have some systemic side effects. So I've been thinking...

Would it at least theoretically work, to take an aromatase inhibitor to lower your estrogen levels to virtually nothing, and then get all your estrogen through the scalp via exogenous E2 gel / cream / lotion? Taking into account some systemic absorption that would leave you with low-normal to normal E2 levels, but your scalp would be completely saturated with E2, likely hitting all the important receptors. Any increase of T and DHT as a result of aromatase inhibitors could be combatted topically with something like RU. This would also allow you to take a potent E2 cream gel like used for HRT without having systemically high estrogen levels.

I'm thinking of getting a letro script just to test this out. After all, the estrogen that matters for hair growth is the one in the scalp, not that in the rest of the body where it is harmful, so as long as the scalp has plenty of it, the hair should grow but nothing else should.

Does that make sense to anyone? What do you think?

 

[Ruby]

In theory it might work, but then who knows what adverse effects the aromatase inhibitors might have on blocking block the estrogen from working inside the follicles too even if the scalp is saturated with estrogen? Papers like this one don't bode so well about loading up your system with aromatase inhibitors (http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1710.full.pdf+html ) if you're already battling male pattern baldness.

 

[Zoro]

In theory it might work, but then who knows what adverse effects the aromatase inhibitors might have on blocking block the estrogen from working inside the follicles too even if the scalp is saturated with estrogen? Papers like this one don't bode so well about loading up your system with aromatase inhibitors (http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1710.full.pdf+html ) if you're already battling male pattern baldness.

Aromatase inhibitors are different than SERMs, AI's block estrogen from forming and SERMs don't stop the production of estrogen, but block estrogen from binding if i remember correctly

Also in that paper it seems they're using AI's without a replacement source of estrogen, unless I missed something

 

[Zoro]

(repost from deleted thread)

Estrogel looks like a decent bet then. According to this, 1.25g of gel raised serum estradiol in postmenopausal women which have very low E levels to ~30 pg/ml which should be in the normal range for males? It looks like people on HRT sometimes use 3-4 pumps of this stuff (1.25g is 1 pump). It's usually applied to arms/legs etc so you might need a bit more considering some will just get on your hair instead of your scalp.

 

[Ruby]

I think if I were trying to avoid the gyno, and wanting the benefits of the estrogel on my scalp, I'd just use it alone very sparingly like the 1.25g amount or less, on the scalp and forget about the aromatase inhibitors. A good percent of the estrogel is going to cruise right thru the skin and go into your bloodstream, but maybe enough of it will stay around for your follicles. If your T levels are high enough, that alone will overpower reasonably low systemic E levels and (theoretically) keep you from developing gyno. For those of us intentionally pursuing gyno, it's sometimes difficult to even get and keep our E levels up high enough to accomplish that without trashing our liver.

 

[Ruby]

Looks like you're right Lacey... I just found this paper which basically says in section 5F (Clinical hair growth effects of estrogens) that in order to get effective hair growth with topical E, it has taken large doses... which will of course go systemic.... and we all know what that means.

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/er.2006-0020


BTW @whatevr , I just saw your results in your success story thread https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...e pattern baldness-and-chew-bubblegum.101353/

Man, I'd do some desperate things to get results like you've gotten so far. That's fantastic regrowth.

 

[Zoro]

Looks like you're right Lacey... I just found this paper which basically says in section 5F (Clinical hair growth effects of estrogens) that in order to get effective hair growth with topical E, it has taken large doses... which will of course go systemic.... and we all know what that means.

Yeah it does make sense, article says the risk of sides is too high for topical E to be used as a treatment because the combo of external E2 combined with the body's own production makes levels too high for a male. With letro you block most of your natural E2, and also get a boost in test as well (RU hopefully would mitigate this effect on your hair somewhat).

This is mostly guesswork since there hasn't been any studies (at least that I can find) similar to whatevr's idea. The only thing i'm worried about is estrogen rebound coming off letro, which could be controlled with a SERM but that would probably be bad for your hair which sucks.

Estradiol needs to bind for it to work, blocking it will not give any beneficial effects.

AI's doesn't block estrogen receptors, it just stops estradiol from forming, outside E2 you add to your body would still be free to bind

 

[whatevr]

I get results from Alpicort which has tiny amounts of estradiol If it was from the systemic amounts then I would have a lot more side effects than I do. It isn't far fetched at all for estradiol to get in through the scalp and immediately bind to the hair follicle. I also can't use E-gel on its own because I have naturally high E for a male and trust me the testosterone doesn't win out. So all in all I appreciate the feedback but I am still going ahead with AI and topical E. I won't rest until I try it. To my knowledge no one has done it yet and I need to see for myself if it has a chance of working. I have to use estrogen one way or another cause I can't maintain on Propecia, much less regrow, so if I can find a way to use it without the sides that will be great.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I get results from Alpicort which has tiny amounts of estradiol If it was from the systemic amounts then I would have a lot more side effects than I do. It isn't far fetched at all for estradiol to get in through the scalp and immediately bind to the hair follicle. I also can't use E-gel on its own because I have naturally high E for a male and trust me the testosterone doesn't win out. So all in all I appreciate the feedback but I am still going ahead with AI and topical E. I won't rest until I try it. To my knowledge no one has done it yet and I need to see for myself if it has a chance of working. I have to use estrogen one way or another cause I can't maintain on Propecia, much less regrow, so if I can find a way to use it without the sides that will be great.

Do you think that you'll need the estrogen forever, or should the follicle be stable once you've regrown it?

 

[whatevr]

I don't believe estradiol works locally. I mean if it did, I would have a huge *** now.

It's not quite that simple. All women have estrogen and not all women have huge asses lol. So clearly not everyone's cells respond to estrogen the same way. Perhaps someone else could get a huge assfrom estrogen topically. Then hair follicles are a different matter entirely. Mine respond very well to even small amounts.

 

[whatevr]

Do you think that you'll need the estrogen forever, or should the follicle be stable once you've regrown it?

Well I will always need something to stave off the male pattern baldness process. Estrogen reverses miniaturization which is basically curing male pattern baldness. If I can maintain on an antiandrogen I could switch to that when I've regrown enough.

 

[whatevr]

@Ruby and @ForeverLacey

Regarding the idea that estrogen can only work systemically on hair...

The estradiol lotion I'm using has only 5 mg of estrogen in the entire 100 mL bottle. I use a 1 mL dropper so that would be 0.05 mg daily. And I only use this every OTHER day currently, so that is only 0.025 mg of estrogen daily.

Does that sound like much? I don't know, but I wouldn't think so. You say estradiol has to go systemic to work. Do you really think that such a small amount would actually do anything to hair follicles if it was used like an oral tablet and spread throughout the entire body?

From what I read the dosages are something like 6-8 mg for MTF regimen. That is like 300 times stronger than what this lotion has. 0.025 mg is nothing. Yet it works. Topically. To me that seems to make the case that estrogen can indeed be effective in the location where it is applied, at least for hair (I don't know or care for any other effects).

And, 0.025 mg of estrogen daily I am maintaining my hair and even slowly regrowing whereas 1.25 mg of Propecia could not do that.
Propecia was giving me gyno and failing my hair. I thought I was doomed. I get less side effects and better hair on small amount of topical E than Propecia. That sounds stupidcrazy to me, but that's the way it is.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

You're making me paranoid and thinking that part of propecia 's strength is it raises estrogen by 15%.

 

[whatevr]

You're making me paranoid and thinking that part of propecia 's strength is it raises estrogen by 15%.

Castrates typically don't regrow the hair they already lost, so where do you think the lucky guys who get regrowth on Finasteride get that regrowth from? They have high E by nature, and the Propecia pushes them a little bit higher so their hair follicles get a boost. It ain't the DHT reduction, trust me Those are maintainers, at best.

 

[Grasshüpfer]

I wonder what exactly in a transgender regimen is causing the regrowth.

I have undetectably low Estrogen. Also lowerish T and super high SHGB. DHT and E1-4 are being tested.

Currently waiting for the test results and the assessment of my endocrinologist before I start finasteride or any hormones.

Do you guys think Estrogen or Progesteron might do something? Actually I m also assuming that the main effect of finasteride is to raise E, thats why the guys who respond best usually develop sides.

 

[Grasshüpfer]

@whatevr awesome regrowth. Looking forward for your story in the future.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I wonder what exactly in a transgender regimen is causing the regrowth.

I have undetectably low Estrogen. Also lowerish T and super high SHGB. DHT and E1-4 are being tested.

Currently waiting for the test results and the assessment of my endocrinologist before I start finasteride or any hormones.

Do you guys think Estrogen or Progesteron might do something? Actually I m also assuming that the main effect of finasteride is to raise E, thats why the guys who respond best usually develop sides.

Low SHBG correlates with male pattern baldness better than anything else, but the reason for that is unknown.

 

[whatevr]

I wonder what exactly in a transgender regimen is causing the regrowth.

I have undetectably low Estrogen. Also lowerish T and super high SHGB. DHT and E1-4 are being tested.

Currently waiting for the test results and the assessment of my endocrinologist before I start finasteride or any hormones.

Do you guys think Estrogen or Progesteron might do something? Actually I m also assuming that the main effect of finasteride is to raise E, thats why the guys who respond best usually develop sides.

Good call.

@whatevr awesome regrowth. Looking forward for your story in the future.

Thanks. I wonder how it will turn out in the long run as well.

 

[stachu]

Well. If E2 doesnt really work topically so why i do read good opinions about Alpicort E used for treating women alopecia and also one known from me girl used something like estradiol gel and it helped her a lot(putting on diffuse areas). Thats why im soo curious.

I really belive topical estradiol is helping at regrowing hair somehow.

 

[whatevr]

Well. If E2 doesnt really work topically so why i do read good opinions about Alpicort E used for treating women alopecia and also one known from me girl used something like estradiol gel and it helped her a lot(putting on diffuse areas). Thats why im soo curious.

I really belive topical estradiol is helping at regrowing hair somehow.

Yeah estrogen is helpful, it's just that in this thread we are discussing whether it is helping directly topically, or by going systemic.

I believe it helps topically even with minimal systemic absorption by acting directly on the receptors in the scalp. The fact that they make a product like Alpicort suggests that estradiol and corticosteroids can and do work topically, it's not required that they be systemically absorbed.
Otherwise it would be an estrogen patch, not a lotion ;-)