Age and transplant

s.a.f

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HT55 said:
I would bet my life savings in 15 years unless HM does come out Aramni rep is totally shot. it's a shame because he does excellent work (in strip anyway, ths jury on his FUE is still out) but is WAY too agressive in people who are in their early 20's
Oh yeah, :agree: especially now he's opening up chains of hairmills under the Armani name with techs doing all the work.
As for Person :roll: typical teenager been on here for 10 minutes and thinks he's an expert. hair transplant and rhinoplasty to get chicks :smack: the new CCS? :shakehead:
 

DaveOne

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HT55 said:
I started a thread with that same question to Shane and said if Armani doesn't perform strip anymore NONE of those pics should be on his current or new website as the only intent can be to mislead patients. That thread was IMMEDIATELY locked and taken down by Farell who told me there would be no more Armani questions which is no surprise since Shane was in a box and could not back up any of his claims.

I then started a new thread that said noboby was allowed to ask any Armani questions and included Farell's reply to me. I was then giove a week suspension for disrupting the forum, lol

It's obvious Farell is defending Shane because of the advertising $$ and I don't see any of the long time posters over there anymore. Shane is telling young guys they have 15K donar hair and has nothing to back it up and Farell is helping him out of the obvious BS.

I only hope 15 years from now when Armani is viewed in a different light by guys out of donar hair at age 35 and still dreaming of HM sue Farrell for letting this go on. I would bet my life savings in 15 years unless HM does come out Aramni rep is totally shot. it's a shame because he does excellent work (in strip anyway, ths jury on his FUE is still out) but is WAY too agressive in people who are in their early 20's

Yeah I used to have some respect for the forum but I've been steadily losing it over the years. They might as well let MHR and Bosley start advertising over there, since you obviously don't need any proof of your procedures to advertise.
 

person

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DaveOne said:
Are you on meds? Most people try to stabilize their hairloss first before they get a transplant. That should be your first step. I think a Doctor will recommend that first anyway.

Second, if you are handsome enough to get girls as a NW2, then what's the problem? At the very least you should try meds for awhile and see if that doesn't keep you where you're at so you can continue *banging* girls. :)

And a hair transplant and a nosejob are similar in that if they get screwed up or don't go the way you want, it's very difficult to recover from that. There are many celebrities who get surgery from the best docs in the world and they have to go back for revision rhinoplasty or other repair procedures. It happens all the time. There are no guarantees with cosmetic surgery, and once you start you're on that horse for life...so I'd try to stay natural for as long as you can get away with it.

When I jumped on Propecia and rogaine foam I experienced a bloated face and dark bags under my eyes and my penis felt less fuller. So I decided that I would rather lose hair than prematurely age. I am now on revivogen at night, eucapil in the morning (not always) and I may purchase the lasercomb . No doubt this regimen will not be as powerful so that's why I'm looking into hair transplant. I hope HM will become a relaity one day. As for the rhinoplasty and septoplasty - I broke my nose so I just wanna look how I'm supposed to look.
 

person

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s.a.f said:
HT55 said:
I would bet my life savings in 15 years unless HM does come out Aramni rep is totally shot. it's a shame because he does excellent work (in strip anyway, ths jury on his FUE is still out) but is WAY too agressive in people who are in their early 20's
Oh yeah, :agree: especially now he's opening up chains of hairmills under the Armani name with techs doing all the work.
As for Person :roll: typical teenager been on here for 10 minutes and thinks he's an expert. hair transplant and rhinoplasty to get chicks :smack: the new CCS? :shakehead:

No I'm not an expert, but most of the time when I ask for advice I just get a facetious comment from someone. Why wouldn't a diffuse Norwood 1 work with toppik, tell me why? I already get chicks, I'm not an expert on girls as I lost the girl of my dreams. But I want the rhinoplasty and septoplasty coz I broke my nose and want to look how im meant to. I like teenage girls not 30 somethings which have more pricks than a russian dart board so I would rather look as good as possible now and settle down with a nice young hottie instead of sitting down thinking to myself: 'I am going to wait 20 years for a hair transplant so I can evaluate my Norwood.' Look good as young as possible and hope for HM, if not re-position the hair and use toppik. I respected CCS for his fundamental and direct look on life so I take it as a compliment. Difference between me and CCS is that I get girls. But the way my hair is going this may decline.
 

HT55

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What makes you think yo're not headed for Norwood 6-7 at a very young age ? If you are in your early 20's and can't stabilze your hair loss with propecia and Rogaine 9 or something) and get a hair transplant now you are headed for disaster and it will be an expensive ride.

TRUST ME when I tell you life doesn't end at 30, 35, 40 or even 50. I suggest you check out some of the hot 30 somethings and realize a womans sex drive peaks at this age.

You should also check the divorce rate and realize even if you do get married you could very well end up single in your 30's and 40's.

Anyway I have given my advice, Hopefully you will go to an honest DR and he will make you wait.
 

s.a.f

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Young + hairloss + not on meds + high Norwood genetics + nw1 hair transplant = spending 5figures and end up Looking like freak.

If you are a nw7 you cannot have a hair transplant period, there is simply not enough donor to do anything worthwhile. If you are nw6 you cant have a nw1 and full coverage for the same reason. hair transplant is all about the art of illusion if you have a high degree of loss you wont have anywhere near average density 120 -150cm2 more like 50 -90cm2.
 

DaveOne

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My guess is that most docs once they find out you aren't on meds and you're 18/19 wont operate on you because your balding pattern could change rapidly in the next 5 years. It's totally unpredictable. By most docs I mean Feller, H&W, Shapiro, Bernstein, Wolf. I would be surprised if they would be willing to. Armani might work on you though, but if he did he would get a ton of heat for it on the boards. But who knows? I've been surprised before. Maybe we are all wrong and you area good candidate. Can't really tell without pics though.

I would try to talk to a few respected clinics before jumping into this. Doctors should be looking out for your future interests. You might not like this proposition right now, but step back and think about why a Doctor might not want to operate on you. Kanye West's mom went to a respected surgeon who wouldn't operate on her until she got a clearance. She decided to go find a Doctor who didn't require a clearance, and we know what happened after that.

And what about your genetics, family history of balding, etc. Docs will want to know that too. We can't really say if you are a good or bad candidate, but clinics that have ethical standards know the difference. They actually turn people down because they simply are not good candidates. It is likely that you will get turned down, but you should do yourself a favor and do some online photo consults. Be honest about your age and family history and what you are looking for and see what they have to say. Maybe we are all wrong, but you won't know until you try. But don't just consult w/ Armani. I recommend you consult with 3 more clinics as well. Be honest w/ them and yourself and see what happens. I am guessing you are looking for other peoples opinions on this right? Otherwise you would have contacted Armani on your own. The fact that you asked the board first means you are probably looking for some opinions. You might not get many to agree with you in here, but at least you can get a feel for the clinics out there and see what they have to say. Online consults are free. Take some good pics of yourself in good lighting and send them out. Good luck!

Oh and the broken nose thing? Leave it bro, it adds character. It didn't hinder you from banging that 16 year old POA at that party. :devil:
 
G

Guest

Guest
s.a.f said:
Young + hairloss + not on meds + high Norwood genetics + nw1 hair transplant = spending 5figures and end up Looking like freak.

If you are a nw7 you cannot have a hair transplant period, there is simply not enough donor to do anything worthwhile. If you are nw6 you cant have a nw1 and full coverage for the same reason. hair transplant is all about the art of illusion if you have a high degree of loss you wont have anywhere near average density 120 -150cm2 more like 50 -90cm2.

I agree with your reasoning her saf but I do not think that the average natural graft density on a non balding Caucasian head is 120-150 cm2. I thought I've read in more than one place that the average non balding Caucasian has around 100 grafts per centimeter squared. Am I wrong here? If I'm not, and if it's also true that 70-80 g/cm2 is indistinguishable from 100 g/cm2 to the naked eye, then the issue here isn't the art of illusion, it's the fear that he will bald further.

If person was on finasteride or dutasteride for example and had succesfully at least maintained(if not regrown any) on the drug for a period of at least 3 years, I doubt that anyone on here would be concerned about throwing 2000 or 3000 grafts into his hair assuming he's got at least 6000 total to work with from donor supply. I was told by one of the doctors back when I was stupidly considering an hair transplant, and i can't remember which one told me this, but he estimated my total available donor at about 8000 grafts. If the average graft has 2.4 hairs, and the average non-balding Caucasian head has 100,000 hairs on it, then that means my donor supply if fully depleted could give me an additional 19,200 hairs to place where I want. In other words, an hair transplant for someone with 8000 total available grafts from strip(and depleting donor in the process, but who cares in this example) would enable them to cover around 20% of the area on their head where hair originally grew(like say age 13 as a juvenile, pre hair loss). Sorry for the convoluted sentence but I think you get where I'm going with this, saf. Also taking into account the fact that this hypothetical person who wanted to transplant 3,000 grafts had the thick donor area from which to get the 8000 grafts, obviously the grafts would not be need to transplanted into the back or sides. they'd all be available for the top, front, and crown.

what percentage would you estimate that the non-donor area of the hair grows(in other words, everywhere but the "safe zone) comprises? i'm trying to put this in easier words, but what i'm asking you is of ALL the area on the scalp where hair grows or once grew, what % of this does the average safe zone typically comprise?

PS- okay Saf, I found the claim I was referring to. It's from a book. Caucasian males average 100 follicular units per square centimeter and 200 hairs per square centimeter. Asian men also average 100 follicular units per square centimeter but only 100 hairs per square centimeter, because their hair is thinner on average. Black men average only 60 follicular units per square centimeter. This is because black hair is typically of a thicker quality. it didn't give the hairs per square centimeter average for black men. But yeah. Assuming person is a Caucasian male, he probably started with somewhere around 100,000 hairs on his head. If the average graft availability is 6000 grafts total, as I've read, and there are an average of 2.4 hairs per graft, as I've also read, then person might have around 15,000 hairs available for transplantation total. Maybe as few as ~10,000 or as many as ~20,000.


Ok final question that will clear things up for me and others reading it who are confused: Why does the average graft contain 2.4 hairs when the average Caucasian follicular unit contains only 2? I realize not every patient is Caucasian but why the difference? Is it just the surgeons pulling more 3 hair groupings out? Don't single hair grafts work better on the hairline?

Final point and you guys tell me what you think. According to this book "The Hair Replacement Revolution", the average human eye cannot tell the difference between 100 hairs per square centimeter and 200 hairs per square centimeter. It's when the density falls below 100 hairs per cm/2 that balding becomes visible.


Thanks
 

CCS

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Jayman, if balding becomes visible below 100, then probably the average non-balding scalp is above 100. Also, hair transplant docs probably have a motive to say the average is 100 rather than 150. Remember they are often marketing super high hairlines as simple non-teenager, telling their clients they don't want to look like a teenager anyway. The truth is they simply can't help those people much.

I read a large study that said women prefer a shaved head to a thinning or receded head of hair. So the hair transplant is probably in the second category.
 
G

Guest

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collegechemistrystudent said:
Jayman, if balding becomes visible below 100, then probably the average non-balding scalp is above 100. Also, hair transplant docs probably have a motive to say the average is 100 rather than 150. Remember they are often marketing super high hairlines as simple non-teenager, telling their clients they don't want to look like a teenager anyway. The truth is they simply can't help those people much.

I read a large study that said women prefer a shaved head to a thinning or receded head of hair. So the hair transplant is probably in the second category.

ccs, are you saying that you can have more than one hair coming out of a follicle? i didn't believe that was possible and have never read anything to that effect.

looks like i was a bit off. it depends on hair color i guess. i've heard 100,000 for caucasians but it's different based on hair color:

"Caucasian hair type: The figures quoted are based on research published by Drs. Erasmus Wilson, Withof & Stelwagon in the nineteenth century and are therefore in inches.
Blonde 146000 hairs, diameter measuring 1/1500th - 1/500th in.
Black 110000 hairs, diameter measuring 1/400th - 1/250th in.
Brunettes 100000 hairs, diameter infinitely variable
Titian (Red) 86000 hairs, diameter infinitely variable"

Source:

http://www.hairscientists.org/%20hair.htm

I have dark brown very close to black hair, for example, so I'd guess that full density for ME would be around 110,000 hairs. And full density for YOU, because your hair is lighter, would be closer to the blonde estimate.

Here are other ethnicity estimates if people are interested:

"Afro hair type: Colour is predominately black. Hairshafts are multi helixal with a wool-like character. Healthy individuals possess between 50000-110000 scalp hairs.

Mongolian (Asian) hair type: Possessed by the greatest numbers of people worldwide. Hairshafts are predominately straight. Colour is predominately black. Regional variations exist, but healthy individuals possess an estimated 80000-140000 scalp hairs."

-----------------------------

So I don't get what your point is ccs. I'm saying that it's been said that balding becomes visible when you have less than 50 follicular units per cm/2 in the area. you said that if balding becomes visible below 100, the average non-balding scalp has above 100. i don't agree with your statement. if i started with 100,000 hairs then the idea that my balding became visible when i only had 100,000 hairs in my head seems weird. this is assuming of course that you lose them from all over, which you don't. people tend to lose from the front, top and crown, not from the sides and back. but yeah i just don't buy what you're saying.
 

RaginDemon

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I think my dad should get a hair transplant to get his hair back to thick NW1, he is NW2.5 but he has thick hair overall but a tiny bald spot at the back (less than size of a penny). Maybe its something I can get him from Armani for his 60th bday.
 

s.a.f

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Sarcasm I hope! :shock:
 

LookingGood!

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person said:
Good. I am turning 19 very soon. What with HM coming out soon I might actually opt for a operation in a few years. All this bull $#iT about no don't get an operation because you will look funny at 30. My philosophy is have great hair as young as possible. That way I can get married quicker and look good young. I could always re-position my transplanted hair to give me a Norwood 1 diffuse thinner and then use toppik, lol I can't lose. I doubt it would come to that what with HM.


Reality check for the 19 yr old: HM will not be coming out anytime soon so stop living off false hope.
 

LookingGood!

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JayMan said:
s.a.f said:
Young + hairloss + not on meds + high Norwood genetics + nw1 hair transplant = spending 5figures and end up Looking like freak.

If you are a nw7 you cannot have a hair transplant period, there is simply not enough donor to do anything worthwhile. If you are nw6 you cant have a nw1 and full coverage for the same reason. hair transplant is all about the art of illusion if you have a high degree of loss you wont have anywhere near average density 120 -150cm2 more like 50 -90cm2.

I agree with your reasoning her saf but I do not think that the average natural graft density on a non balding Caucasian head is 120-150 cm2. I thought I've read in more than one place that the average non balding Caucasian has around 100 grafts per centimeter squared. Am I wrong here? If I'm not, and if it's also true that 70-80 g/cm2 is indistinguishable from 100 g/cm2 to the naked eye, then the issue here isn't the art of illusion, it's the fear that he will bald further.

If person was on finasteride or dutasteride for example and had succesfully at least maintained(if not regrown any) on the drug for a period of at least 3 years, I doubt that anyone on here would be concerned about throwing 2000 or 3000 grafts into his hair assuming he's got at least 6000 total to work with from donor supply. I was told by one of the doctors back when I was stupidly considering an hair transplant, and i can't remember which one told me this, but he estimated my total available donor at about 8000 grafts. If the average graft has 2.4 hairs, and the average non-balding Caucasian head has 100,000 hairs on it, then that means my donor supply if fully depleted could give me an additional 19,200 hairs to place where I want. In other words, an hair transplant for someone with 8000 total available grafts from strip(and depleting donor in the process, but who cares in this example) would enable them to cover around 20% of the area on their head where hair originally grew(like say age 13 as a juvenile, pre hair loss). Sorry for the convoluted sentence but I think you get where I'm going with this, saf. Also taking into account the fact that this hypothetical person who wanted to transplant 3,000 grafts had the thick donor area from which to get the 8000 grafts, obviously the grafts would not be need to transplanted into the back or sides. they'd all be available for the top, front, and crown.

what percentage would you estimate that the non-donor area of the hair grows(in other words, everywhere but the "safe zone) comprises? i'm trying to put this in easier words, but what i'm asking you is of ALL the area on the scalp where hair grows or once grew, what % of this does the average safe zone typically comprise?

PS- okay Saf, I found the claim I was referring to. It's from a book. Caucasian males average 100 follicular units per square centimeter and 200 hairs per square centimeter. Asian men also average 100 follicular units per square centimeter but only 100 hairs per square centimeter, because their hair is thinner on average. Black men average only 60 follicular units per square centimeter. This is because black hair is typically of a thicker quality. it didn't give the hairs per square centimeter average for black men. But yeah. Assuming person is a Caucasian male, he probably started with somewhere around 100,000 hairs on his head. If the average graft availability is 6000 grafts total, as I've read, and there are an average of 2.4 hairs per graft, as I've also read, then person might have around 15,000 hairs available for transplantation total. Maybe as few as ~10,000 or as many as ~20,000.


Ok final question that will clear things up for me and others reading it who are confused: Why does the average graft contain 2.4 hairs when the average Caucasian follicular unit contains only 2? I realize not every patient is Caucasian but why the difference? Is it just the surgeons pulling more 3 hair groupings out? Don't single hair grafts work better on the hairline?

Final point and you guys tell me what you think. According to this book "The Hair Replacement Revolution", the average human eye cannot tell the difference between 100 hairs per square centimeter and 200 hairs per square centimeter. It's when the density falls below 100 hairs per cm/2 that balding becomes visible.


Thanks


I think that ratio is incorrect. If the average density is supposedly 80-110 fu/cm2 then 1/2 of that can still block out sun according to Dr Cole. I have 50 g/cm in my little 1500 procedure and it blocks out the sun. My donor area was between 90-110 according to his analysis. It also depends on hair characteristics and the angles too...ie wavy hair like mine.
 
G

Guest

Guest
what ratio is incorrect lg? if your donor was between 90-110 and your 50 g/cm2 isn't see through, then why would you say the ratio is incorrect?
 
G

Guest

Guest
I would like to see some of these "averages" documented at some point--(for those who claim the average as 90-110)

At SMG the average caucasion male has been 80-90 fu's cm/2--- that is after literally thousands of patients.

Asians and African Americans are typically lower 65-80 fu's cm/2

In addition, consider the source of the information--- if a clinic operates on a large number of younger men 25-35 vs a clinic that has a broader range-- say 25-55 you will most likely have a true read on this number.

Anyway, the generally accepted number is restore an area to 50% to achieve the ILLUSION of density--- I have never head (until recently) the idea the removing 50% of donor hair will achieve the same result--- the hair lies differently and what about the gaps between the removed hair?

The average number of grafts is still 6-8K with some guys choosing to either over-strip or over-fue past those numbers--- please note, there ARE the guys who have excess donor just as there a guys who have 3-4K total grafts-- I have met both types---

Just make sure you approach your hairloss WITHOUT emotion and as a purely scientific transfer of tissue/hair and you will end up ok as long as you weigh all options.

Take Care,
Jason
 
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