About Permanent Finasteride ED Effects & What's It Come To

[Vigaku]

I've done a forum search for topics discussing this and started feeling bad after reading posts in thread results...

Basically I've been told, and under the impression (for 18 months, which is how long I've been on Propecia...may stop it any day now, after what I've read today) that one, Propecia may cause loss of libido in some patients taking the drug, and any side effects that may pop up can be fixed by simply discontinuing, even if this would take months to wear off.

To me this has seemed to be the official and accepted truth though now I am seeing what seems to be official evidence somewhere that this causes permanent ED in some males....even if this ED isn't like you can't get an erection at all, but just having a harder time getting one, thereby reducing the erection rate to 80% for the rest of your life.

I take words with a grain of salt, but I was curious of what's now the forum's current opinion of this subject.

Last few questions I have:

1. Does anyone on finasteride/Propecia have problems holding their urine in? Whenever I get the urge to pee (I pee about say 3 or 4 times a day) it's like I can barely freaking hold it in. I resort to having to walk around or flex my muscles sometimes telling myself to hold it in. I believe someone answered me months ago saying Propecia's most likely the reason. Reason I'm asking is, I noticed I had this problem even before using Propecia...maybe it's sex-related? As in engaging in frequent sex/masturbation may have something to do with it?

2. Is it possible that v**** or any other potence increasing drug could fix any possible sexual side effects of Propecia? I'm not talking only about temporary side effects (which means they'll heal on their own) but "permanent" effects as well. Can't someone just take v**** for a while and get all their potence back that way?

If only Male-P Baldness didn't exist...then again, that's (to me, the crap known as) life, though I sure hope nothing to even any degree permanently affected me or that I can't "regain" after using something like v**** from a legit pharmacy. Something like Hair Direct would so have fixed this issue up...though here's a little trivia as to why I went on Propecia and decided to be on it temporarily.

I live in a family of 5. I have two brothers and I'm the youngest at 21 years. I can't really live around them when they know I have hair that's not mine on (I know I can't hide this fact forever, that is if I manage to go past the first few weeks not making anything seem suspicious) since well...they'd be pissed at me, especially my dad...older brother would pester me beyond belief, other brother would constantly question me. Only person I could manage to put up with is my mom but even still that would be difficult, though worth the try IMO.

My plan was to use Propecia/Minoxidil (recently stopped Min due to the WTFdifficult use while living a normal life...considering I'm not thinning in just a spot but pretty much all over my head, not to mention its flakes and residue it buries in my scalp), use those until I either get out of the house and live my own life, or my dad leaves/retires and lives somewhere else, and my brothers live their own lives elsewhere. That way I'd have no one to deal with except maybe my mom, which like I said is not much of a problem.

It's been 8 months of minoxidil...and 18 months of Propecia at this point. This may very well be my last day of Propecia. Ironically, my new prescription of 3 months Propecia started 3-4 days ago....may need to trash it, depending on what I get convinced of.

Honestly I can't tell for sure if my libido is lower JUST BECAUSE of the drug. I can say a big factor to my recent half-***'d "masturbation-life" is because of life occurrences that depressed me, that have nothing to do with Propecia. Of course I am still able to achieve erections (without difficulty) as recently I know what my libido can be like. I guess what I'm trying to say is I haven't been doing it lately which means little.

Even if something did happen within those 18 months that couldn't be fixed somehow, from passage of time or something like v****, at least I know I was destined to have half-***'d pleasure anyway, thanks to manmade re(tarded)ligious-based circumcision.

 

[He-Bat]

If you don't have sexual problems now, it's unlikely that you will get them later. Don't stop taking the finasteride. Many people get the sexual sides AFTER they stop taking it and that may be due to hormonal disregulation. And if you think about sexual problems and ED all day, you will get them. Stop worrying.

 

[Ende]

I believe the "permanent ED" is caused by atrophied penile muscles. If that's the case, it can be reversed with kegel exercises when your hormone levels are good. Propecia can really scew your libido, but there are ways to deal with that too. PDE-5 inhibitors like v**** doesn't help if you don't have libido.

 

[Vigaku]

I like your response, especially about the part where if it has not caused problems now it most likely won't later, and that DISCONTINUING the drug may cause some impotence due to hormonal disregulations. Eh...I don't really get the second part. finasteride is either somehow lowering, or, increasing (in the case of people with hyperandrogencity) your libido, and if it's neutral that I don't see how stopping it can lower your libido from what it would be had you not invlolved yourself with Propecia.

Besides another equally important question is can't v**** undo any possible impotence caused by Propecia? I mean I don't see the logic in a side effect becoming permanent, when you then take a drug that's designed to combat the side effect for an equal amount of time of taking Propecia.

I'm reading that DHT plays a role in how much libido you have....hardly ever thought of it that way. I thought it was testosterone that dealt with libido whereas DHT has more to do with the physical characteristics, i.e. deeper voice, bodily hair and baldness. Then again I guess penis and prostate size fall under this since it's a physical visible trait?

 

[Vigaku]

I believe the "permanent ED" is caused by atrophied penile muscles. If that's the case, it can be reversed with kegel exercises when your hormone levels are good. Propecia can really scew your libido, but there are ways to deal with that too. PDE-5 inhibitors like v**** doesn't help if you don't have libido.

So what drug out there increases libido?

 

[Ende]

Libido is mainly dependent on testosterone, yes. But it's all about balance. Estrogen (low/high) and prolactin (high) can really be devestating.

 

[Ende]

I believe the "permanent ED" is caused by atrophied penile muscles. If that's the case, it can be reversed with kegel exercises when your hormone levels are good. Propecia can really scew your libido, but there are ways to deal with that too. PDE-5 inhibitors like v**** doesn't help if you don't have libido.

So what drug out there increases libido?

It depends on what's causing the problem. But to answer your question, there is an experimental drug, PT-141, but you'll probably see dopamine agonists in the future. Dostinex (cabergoline) works, but it's not prescribed for anything else than hyperprolactinaemia, as far as I know.

 

[Vigaku]

If it's really due to hormonal imbalances then what permanent side effects could result? I mean Propecia is a Type 1 inhibitor and if it's stopped...to me that's like stopping to use an anti-depressant, or some other drug that is mean to regulate something in the body.

Does anyone know the percentage of patients with permanent sexual side effects? And I mean effects that are proven to be due to the drug, not simply someone having impotence and claiming it's because of Propecia.

 

[Ende]

If it's really due to hormonal imbalances then what permanent side effects could result?

It depends on how you look at it. Without proper treatment, you risk secondary hypogonadism, which comes with a lot of trouble. It's not permanent as you can deal with it, but without treatment, it might not reverse itself. Gynecomastia, shrunk or enlarged prostate, erectile dysfunction and so on. You get the picture.

 

[Vigaku]

Another thing I wanted to say was, about the permanent sexual effects of propecia (obviously not complete loss of libido, but partial permanent loss).

If this would cause any permanence, then how does it not cause any permanence when it comes to the hair? Are some people trying to say that, quitting finasteride will surely be as if you've never taken it when it comes to how your hair looks, but when it comes to how much sex you can have/erections/orgasms the side effect stays? This is seriously messed up...I mean first of all I don't see WHY Propecia would leave a permanent effect in the crotch area but not do the same on your head (after all...with the sides not reversed, shouldn't this mean DHT is STILL being blocked and therefore your hairloss prevention would remain the same?).

Also I thought of sides of a drug, as being less potent than what the drug is aimed to do...if libido loss is a side effect of Propecia, I don't see why taking a drug mainly designed to fight libido loss, wouldn't work to keep the libido back up. Personally I don't even see why taking a libido enhancer, for a while, wouldn't completely erase the permanen effects done by Propecia. After all, it's not like you're even on Propecia anymore and if it's out of your system, logically it should no longer be doing what it was causing, and even if you did have some lasting effects, why wouldn't a libido enhancer also create permanent effects (good ones, i.e. increase libido permanently) to combat the effect Propecia made?

Sorry if this is too much to ask, but I'm very concerned myself. I'll try to stop boohooing, but would like everything I said answered. I know people here so far have done a good job.

 

[Ende]

People who are suffering after quitting the drug, reports no further progress in hairloss. Libido and erections are depended on many factors to work correctly, and they're both sensitive to hormonal inbalance. Lower DHT, and estrogen may raise in some cases. Estrogen supresses LH, and your balls reduce the amount of testosterone they produce. As if that wasn't enough, estrogen upregulates prolactin which causes a lot of trouble in the sexual department. It may involve other hormones as well, but this is what I know. A lot of people have been reporting trouble with thyriod hormones. This mess causes a lot of changes to your body, and just quitting the drug wouldn't necessary solve that.

Edit:
The problem with isolating problems, is that they're all connected. Use an libido enhancer to deal with reduced libido, use PDE-5 inhibitor do deal with erectile dysfunction. Suddently they don't work anymore, because the estrogen level, which is the actual problem, continues to raise.

 

[Ende]

Yes, through your GP.

 

[Ende]

No, I'm not sure if you can do this with all hormones, and a serum test would be more accurate anyway. Visit a private clinic if you can't stand your GP. It's worth it, trust me.

 

[Vigaku]

I guess these would be answers to questions I labled "1" and "2" in my first post.

I get the first one, though not the second. Why wouldn't a libido enhancer be fixing the situation, at least as long as you're on the libido enhancer? Pretty much it should, though I guess believing it can permantly have a lasting effect after taking it for a while which can undo what Propecia apparently does to some degree, to all males (which means only the very few are the ones who have it noticeably) is stretching it.

To add to the bottom section of my first post, before, during my 18 months I didn't seem to have a big problem with a lowered libido. To me, having no sexual desire was neutral, as was having desire (little, or a lot of it) and then getting sexual pleasure. This was my philosophy, not to mention, believe it or not, once I asked my doctor for a drug that mainly reduced libido since I was tired of having such a high libido (would masturbate all the freaking time) but I guess this had some religious moral to do with it.

Right now, I really do believe not having the desire for sex and getting nothing, is not the same as having desire and getting it, and the more desire you have with the pleasure that satisfies it, the better life is.

So I guess after this day I am done with the drug. If I could go back now, as with a whole bunch of different life choices I made and life occurrences, I probably would not take it and would get a custom hair replacement when the time was right, and would not worry or cry over hair loss.

Quite ironic this is. Even now I feel like I want to break down. Late into puberty (19) I start noticing family related male-pattern baldness, and was hugely emotionally affected. Heard of the FDA treatments minoxidil and finasteride and went on them as soon as possible, since I couldn't take the pain of losing hair and quality of appearance, since I valued my appearance pretty much more than anything else. It's been a year and a half almost exactly on the drug, and now I'm starting to regret for a number of reasons:

1. Stopping Propecia would be as if you've never taken it when it comes to your hair, but the sexual side effects remain.

2. I've actually always saw a custom hair replacement as an EASIER, less expensive, and more cosmetically appealing option. Thing is though as I said in my first post, this would be hard to do while living with my family, for the reasons I stated in the first post, so that's why I planned on using Propecia temporarily.

3. As I said I've been under the impression the side effects will leave the body (heard/read it from doctrors, and Merck...and thought who would be better to ask exactly?) once discontinuing, and even if it doesn't, then taking a libido ENHANCER for about as long as one was on Propecia, in my case, 18 months, should undo the effects for the most part and raise the libido back up.

I have not lost my drive, but I feel it may have worsened to some degree because of the drug. That or I could just be hallucinating - I can't tell since my mood probably more affects my libido than the drug anyway.

I will end this post by asking if there's a way to determine with some tests and numbers if Propecia has had a permanent effect. I read something online having to do with testosterone levels...though this doesn't make sense seeing as Propecia deals with type 1 DHT, not even testosterone.

If something like this will help me determine if Propecia had some level of effect, I would go ahead and do it. Hopefully then I would realize Propecia had done virtually nothing and that my system was able to deal with it to the point Propecia could cause no permanent effects.

 

[Vigaku]

I was talking about something that can reverse Propecia's sexual sides, whatever it may be, in the form of a drug or something I can take.

To Enden's post, basically I'm asking of anything that can undo Propecia's sexual sides, so if the problem pinpointed was estrogen levels then isn't there a solution?

 

[Ende]

Hold on, what is the problem exactly? Are you afraid of the possible side effects? You've been on the drug for 18 months and not suffered from any, and it's therefore unlikely that you will do so in the future. Just stay fit. Fat contains a lot of aromatase enzymes which probably will put you at risk of experiencing side effects. Try zinc if you've trouble with libido. 50 - 100 mg a day. You can't trust anyone regarding finasteride at this point, especially not merck and ignorant doctors, but do what you think is right.

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=59803

 

[Vigaku]

Can't really say I know for sure what caused what. Here are the categories:

- Penis size: ...is this supposed to affect penis size? Or erection %? Not that circumcision didn't already do that way back.

- Erections: uh...maybe, not entirely sure. I know within those 18 months I've been having good orgasms. I can't really compare it to before Propecia use, since I can't remember exactly how good it felt back then compared to now. Right now I am also having hard-ons though like I said it's hard to compare it to before 18 months. Besides I've also been using, before my 18 months of Propecia, generic finasteride from 4rx. com for 8 months, though I can't say for sure if this was real finasteride or fake.

- Libido: Same as above. Actually I don't even know what distinquishes them. Aren't libido and erections directly related? If there's no erection then where's the libido? Or is ED simply a problem when it comes to the penis muscles, in which case I don't see how Propecia can cause penis muscles to atrophy...or I guess I do. After all Propecia isn't simply altering hormones? It alters hormones but this in turn, reduces muscle mass in the body so it could also reduce penis muscle erection?

- Muscle mass and body fat: Really hard to distinguish the cause since I don't workout at all, not to mention I eat whatever I like and don't care, yet I seem to be fit and have adequate muscle. I can flex my body and still see a little bit of a six pack, and I have arm muscles and pectorals and everything. As for boobs, can't really tell again since one would have "boobs" either way with lack of exercise and diet.


If 1.5 years of Propecia wasn't enough, I've been on apparently a generic version for 2/3 of a year which would make the finasteride time come to 2.16 years of finasteride.

Yes I am worried about side effects, if they are on a permanent level. I wouldn't worry if they exist as long as the drug is taken, but would if the drug permanently destroys your sex life.

Even though I can still get erections/orgasms, I'd be worried if any % of damage happened at all that cannot be reversed with time, or with medication...or something else. What depresses me now is what Propecia may have permanently done that, even I can barely notice. It's hard to tell sometimes since for all you know, if could be because of something else, like something in life that's depressing you, not thinking of/seeing someone or something that is attractive enough, and like I said it'd be hard to compare it to before Propecia use. I can't remember how good erections/orgasms were back then.

Guess right now what I'm going to do is go to my doctor and ask something about bloodwork that has been done. I gave them a sample of my blood after my 8 months of 4rx generic finasteride, and before my 18 months of propecia. Perhaps they can tell me my hormonal levels back then? Somehow I believe they wouldn't have it, since the bloodwork wasn't for testing such levels anyway. It was for something else I believe, but I believe it's the only shot I have - getting to know hormonal levels back then and comparing it to now to see what Propecia has done, or what God let happen.

Now if only my sorrows would go away.

 

[Ende]

You worry too much. If you have reduced libido, try zinc. Without libido (sexual desire), you'll not have erections. Atrophied penile muscles induced by propecia, is not something you've to worry about. All your muscles are maintained by testosterone, and they will atrophy if your testosterone level gets severly reduced, like it does if you develope secondary hypogonadism. Finasteride is reducing 60-70% of DHT by binding to 5AR type 2 enzymes. It doesn't do anything else, but when one hormone level is altered, another may follow, and then another, and another...

 

[Vigaku]

Would one of those be testosterone by any chance?

Also would you agree with this:

What side effects do users of Propecia report?
98% of men taking Propecia had no side effects. Clinical tests show PROPECIA is very well tolerated. A small number of men (1.8%) experience some sexual side effects. 1.3% reported erectile dysfunction.

Although not listed as a "known" side effect, some users have reported small blackheads on forehead and increased skin oil across their face. Two report suffering from acne 6 months after stopping their Propecia intake. One reported that acne was still present after 3 years. This is probably not a big problem but still a potential risk.

Tell your doctor if you experience
Decreased libido (1.8%)
Decreased volume of ejaculate (0.8%)
Impotence (less than one percent)
Breast tenderness or enlargement (less than one percent)

From: http://www.askdocweb.com/propecia.html

And what about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZsgCQ2-ZS8

If you don't have sexual problems now, it's unlikely that you will get them later. Don't stop taking the finasteride. Many people get the sexual sides AFTER they stop taking it and that may be due to hormonal disregulation. And if you think about sexual problems and ED all day, you will get them. Stop worrying.

To me this didn't make a lot of sense...I think if anything, Propecia causes the disregulations, and if anything quitting the drug will either sustain the irregulation it caused (after all I doubt Propecia will regulate the levels better i.e. give you better sexual function) or undo what it has been doing. Obviously I don't know much about this subject but I felt I should say what I think.

 

[Ende]

As I've already said, yes, the hormonal change induced by propecia affects the testosterone level in many cases. The other major one is estrogen. There is no point in what you're doing. Either you quit the drug, or you treat the side effects. You make your decision on the information which is available.