Woman With Dupa ( Diffuse Unpatterned Hairloss)

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
Hello. I am almost 28 woman. I saw something is happening to me in February. I went to endo who gave me metformine. It didn't help. My dermo said I have androgenetic alopecia. But I am quite sure it's also dupa. Since May I was using Loxon (something like Rogaine 5%) and in June a huge sheeding has started and it has finished after almost 2 months. Since the end of June I quited Loxon cuz I started taking Minoxidile in pills 2,5 mg, dutasteride 0,5 once a day and Spironolactone 100 mg once a day. Still my hairs was falling out but in part of that places a small hairs appeared ( Only in front of my head while I was loosing hairs from all head) my sideburns are dissapearing very fast. I don't have much hair left on nape. My crown is so weak.. My hairline went up more that 2 cm and I lost my temples. Since month I noticed that those hairs from front became blonde ( like dark hairs in some part of hair started to be so thin and changed color). It's probably extremely fast miniaturisation. But why? And those small hairs are falling out now and there is just shiny skin

Before treatment I had to much of 17 ohp, androstendione, dheas. I was in hospital and they made a test to dexamethasone and synacthen. Everything was ok. I don't have PCOS. Or.. I don't have it just in a view of my gynecologist. spironolactone took my period. But more that a week ago I checked some things. Before treatment my testosteron was 40 (max is something like 80) now I have 50. Because of dutasteride? Before my SHBG was 106 ( max 130) now I have 60. Dheas is in normal range now. 17 ohp I don't know cuz I don' t know in what part of cycle I am. But.. Androstendione was 3 (it was too much then) and now I have more than 4. In this test it is not said that I need to be in a period time...
I am waiting for DHT test.. Probably duta is not working for me. What is more that treatment started extremely huge miniaturisation of hairs that are still growing. Now.. When hairs fall out there is nothing. No single new hair. I don't know what to do. I am thinking about androcur. I am now buing a wig.. After a few months of this shitty disease!

PS. I don't have thyroid problem or iron etc..
PS 2. My hairline is now so ragged.
 

camille leprevost

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
12
Hello my friend, i am french so i apologise in advance for my english.

I do have the same pattern as you, 28 years old , thinning and overall shedding back, side, and top and my hairline is quite not touched actually. I think it is DUPA and it is similar to female pattern hair loss actually.

Some studies showed that high prolactin level can cause hair on side and back to become sensitive to androgen as well. So might be something to dig in. Also annecdotally, it seems that DUPA sufferer are sensitive to DHT but also to Free testosterone in scalp. Apparently DHT seem to cause localised thinning where testosterone cause diffuse thinning.

If you have been to a dermatologist, i hope she gave you a full bloodwork to do because besides that they are useless,

You need to check for :
-nutritionnal defficiency
-metabolism glucidic ((Glucose, insuline sensitivity,)
- full hormonal check : cortisol, LH ,FSH ,Prolactine, E2,17OH progesterone, progesterone, SHBG, testosterone total, free T, androstanediol G6470, delta 4 androstenedione, DHEA-S, DHT ....
- inflamatory syndrom ...

I am going to do a full blood check this friday, so i will send you the result here in 2 weeks if you want. If you have done a full blood work too, it will be great to compare it to check for similitude.

To tell you a bit about myself i started to lose hair all over since 3 years now.
I only started 7 month ago to take 1 mg finasteride daily, but it has thin my hair considerably because of the boost of scalp tesoterone it caused i think. I tried to add different antiandrogen topically such as ru58841 to tackle the rise in T (had to stop due to chest pain , shortness of breath), i used now topical cb0301 30mg/day but it is not enough powerful so it doesn't do sh*t. I am going to try topical bicalutamide now soon as it is a stronger AA and i think we have to fight testoerone as well.
Besides finasteride + cb0301 i don't take any supplement and it didn't stop my shedding at all.

I am curious to know about how much you lose hair per day, what regimen are you on, it seems you use minoxidil, dit it worked on you ? and how you manage to apply it all over your head ?

Also can you share if anything in your regimen has improved your situation so far or make it worse. Would be great to share info

You can send me a message privately as well.

Looking forward helping each other to solve that sh*t.

Best regard
 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
Hello my friend, i am french so i apologise in advance for my english.

I do have the same pattern as you, 28 years old , thinning and overall shedding back, side, and top and my hairline is quite not touched actually. I think it is DUPA and it is similar to female pattern hair loss actually.

Some studies showed that high prolactin level can cause hair on side and back to become sensitive to androgen as well. So might be something to dig in. Also annecdotally, it seems that DUPA sufferer are sensitive to DHT but also to Free testosterone in scalp. Apparently DHT seem to cause localised thinning where testosterone cause diffuse thinning.

If you have been to a dermatologist, i hope she gave you a full bloodwork to do because besides that they are useless,

You need to check for :
-nutritionnal defficiency
-metabolism glucidic ((Glucose, insuline sensitivity,)
- full hormonal check : cortisol, LH ,FSH ,Prolactine, E2,17OH progesterone, progesterone, SHBG, testosterone total, free T, androstanediol G6470, delta 4 androstenedione, DHEA-S, DHT ....
- inflamatory syndrom ...

I am going to do a full blood check this friday, so i will send you the result here in 2 weeks if you want. If you have done a full blood work too, it will be great to compare it to check for similitude.

To tell you a bit about myself i started to lose hair all over since 3 years now.
I only started 7 month ago to take 1 mg finasteride daily, but it has thin my hair considerably because of the boost of scalp tesoterone it caused i think. I tried to add different antiandrogen topically such as ru58841 to tackle the rise in T (had to stop due to chest pain , shortness of breath), i used now topical cb0301 30mg/day but it is not enough powerful so it doesn't do sh*t. I am going to try topical bicalutamide now soon as it is a stronger AA and i think we have to fight testoerone as well.
Besides finasteride + cb0301 i don't take any supplement and it didn't stop my shedding at all.

I am curious to know about how much you lose hair per day, what regimen are you on, it seems you use minoxidil, dit it worked on you ? and how you manage to apply it all over your head ?

Also can you share if anything in your regimen has improved your situation so far or make it worse. Would be great to share info

You can send me a message privately as well.

Looking forward helping each other to solve that sh*t.

Best regard
I won't win with this. I will news to Wear a wig soon. In My case I have more male hairloss than female. It's going very quick and what is more in my case I don't have any new hair on my head. Everyne hair which is falling makes empty Space. It doesn't matter if it is long or short. There is no new hair at this place... I have no idea how it is possible..
 

Selb

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
509
I won't win with this. I will news to Wear a wig soon. In My case I have more male hairloss than female. It's going very quick and what is more in my case I don't have any new hair on my head. Everyne hair which is falling makes empty Space. It doesn't matter if it is long or short. There is no new hair at this place... I have no idea how it is possible..
If you’re experiencing androgenic effects besides male like hair loss, such as more body hair and oily skin, you may have an estrogen imbalance. Are your estrogen levels low? And it’s less about testosterone levels and more about androgen receptor sensitivity.

Anecdotal threads I’ve seen seem to imply that dupa and hair loss in the safe regions seem to be a result of extra sensitive androgen receptors. So even testosterone in addition to dht can badly affect hair.

In other words, if the above theory is true, you may need to downregulate your androgen receptors with an AR antagonist like bica or some topical anti androgen. Apparently prolonged deprivation of androgens downregulates them. However you also need estrogen to promote growth in the hair. I’m not sure how it’d be different for a woman, but that’s what men with persistent hair loss have been doing too.


Of course this is all assuming this is hormonal hair loss and not something like auto immune hair loss
 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
If you’re experiencing androgenic effects besides male like hair loss, such as more body hair and oily skin, you may have an estrogen imbalance. Are your estrogen levels low? And it’s less about testosterone levels and more about androgen receptor sensitivity.

Anecdotal threads I’ve seen seem to imply that dupa and hair loss in the safe regions seem to be a result of extra sensitive androgen receptors. So even testosterone in addition to dht can badly affect hair.

In other words, if the above theory is true, you may need to downregulate your androgen receptors with an AR antagonist like bica or some topical anti androgen. Apparently prolonged deprivation of androgens downregulates them. However you also need estrogen to promote growth in the hair. I’m not sure how it’d be different for a woman, but that’s what men with persistent hair loss have been doing too.


Of course this is all assuming this is hormonal hair loss and not something like auto immune hair loss
My estrogen level are normal. For example at the moment (dutasteride increased my testosterone lvl) I have 40 eatradiol and 50 testosterone. I am going to take birthcontrol pill. But.. There is only 0,02 mg eatradiole. What would you suggest me?
 

Selb

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
509
My estrogen level are normal. For example at the moment (dutasteride increased my testosterone lvl) I have 40 eatradiol and 50 testosterone. I am going to take birthcontrol pill. But.. There is only 0,02 mg eatradiole. What would you suggest me?
I can’t suggest anything specifically since I’m not sure about your hair loss. All I can say is that I’ve noticed androgen sensitivity leads to DUPA similar to how male pattern baldness happens. You need to block these androgens or increase your estrogen enough to counteract it.
 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
I can’t suggest anything specifically since I’m not sure about your hair loss. All I can say is that I’ve noticed androgen sensitivity leads to DUPA similar to how male pattern baldness happens. You need to block these androgens or increase your estrogen enough to counteract it.
Do you know how to calucate how much estrogen would be necessary but also safe? Too much estrogens leads to breast cancer so it's super important.
 

Selb

Experienced Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
509
Do you know how to calucate how much estrogen would be necessary but also safe? Too much estrogens leads to breast cancer so it's super important.
Normal levels can range from 30 to 400. I think you’re on the lower end. Maybe experiment a bit until your serum levels get to 80 or so? Like I said, it’s either boosting estrogen or blocking androgens. For men it’s typical to block androgens for hair loss. For women, the option of supplementing with estrogen seems ok too.

spironolactone is a weak anti androgen, so maybe try something a bit more powerful like bica could help but you’ve also been taking for a few months right? Maybe give it a bit more time.

 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
Ivi, Assuming your Estradiol of 40 is in pg/mL, that is very low. Do you know what day of your cycle your E2 blood lab was drawn? Day 3 will generally be your lowest E2 of your cycle and Day 19-21 the highest E2 of your cycle.

If you choose to supplement with Estrogen (Estradiol) it will be important to distinguish between Bio-identical forms of Estrogen and Synthetic forms of Estrogen. Bio-identical Estrogen (Estradiol, Estriol) are health promoting (and can increase hair growth) while Synthetic Estrogens (like those in the BCP and older forms of HRT) may come with an increased risk of blood clots, breast/uterine cancer, heart disease and hair loss.
0. So synthetic form won't help me? I was prescribed product named Vibin mini with 0,02mg ethinyl eatradiol. I was in a 5 th day of my cycle.

1.And ethinyl estradiol is a synthetic form, right?
2. So what should I use?
 

Ticken

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
54
0. So synthetic form won't help me? I was prescribed product named Vibin mini with 0,02mg ethinyl eatradiol. I was in a 5 th day of my cycle.

1.And ethinyl estradiol is a synthetic form, right?
2. So what should I use?
Yes, unfortunately, Vibin Mini contains only Synthetic Hormones ( the form of Estrogen is Ethinyl Estradiol and the Synthetic Progesterone (known as a Progestin) is Drospirenone. Synthetic Estrogens will not increase hair growth the way Bio-identical Estrogens can. Progestins act as Androgens and may increase DHT leading to more hair shedding.

The Bioidenticals that are available to you will somewhat based on your stage of life (young, perimenopause or menopause), your country and your current hormone estradiol and progesterone levels. Were you were considering Synthetic Birth Control solely for Hair Growth?
 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
Yes, unfortunately, Vibin Mini contains only Synthetic Hormones ( the form of Estrogen is Ethinyl Estradiol and the Synthetic Progesterone (known as a Progestin) is Drospirenone. Synthetic Estrogens will not increase hair growth the way Bio-identical Estrogens can. Progestins act as Androgens and may increase DHT leading to more hair shedding.

The Bioidenticals that are available to you will somewhat based on your stage of life (young, perimenopause or menopause), your country and your current hormone estradiol and progesterone levels. Were you were considering Synthetic Birth Control solely for Hair Growth?
Wow.. I had no idea that Progestin works like Androgens.. Omg.. It's horrible. It's so good that I haven't taken it yet.. But.. I am sure that my detmatologist ( in my opinion best in my country) won't see me without taking birtcontrol.. She is so fixated on possibility of being pregnant even if it's my risk. I should be already on it but I denied it without her knowledge. I was so afraid of negative results of birth control.

No, I am not only thinking about Synthetic Estradiole.. What would you recommend for me?
 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
Yes, unfortunately, Vibin Mini contains only Synthetic Hormones ( the form of Estrogen is Ethinyl Estradiol and the Synthetic Progesterone (known as a Progestin) is Drospirenone. Synthetic Estrogens will not increase hair growth the way Bio-identical Estrogens can. Progestins act as Androgens and may increase DHT leading to more hair shedding.

The Bioidenticals that are available to you will somewhat based on your stage of life (young, perimenopause or menopause), your country and your current hormone estradiol and progesterone levels. Were you were considering Synthetic Birth Control solely for Hair Growth?
?
 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
There are some BCPs made with Progestins that have a lower androgen index but these are still Synthetic Progestins and if possible I'd stay away from them.

Read through some recommendations for alternative methods of Birth Control here: https://www.larabriden.com/causes-androgen-excess-in-women/
Thank you. I have just read it. The pills which was prescribed - Vibin mini contains drospirerone so it's small androgen index but.. As you noticed it also contains Synthetic estrogen and you said it would not help with regrowing. In your text there is a few ways to make Androgens lower but.. What kind of estrogens should I use? And what amount of it?
 

camille leprevost

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
12
Hello, just to recap, I am a man and have DUPA hair loss (or female pattern hair loss), diffuse hair loss and thinning (back, sides and top) which started 3 years ago after an episode in my life where my alimentation was very bad and had nutrient deficiency for sure. After fixing my alimentation properly my hair are still shedding and thinning all over.

Since 8 month i only take 1mg finasteride / day (no reduction on my hair loss), cb0301 30mg topicaly with no reduction on my hair loss, Biotin (10mg/day), spearmint tea (4 cup/day to reduce free testosterone), Flaxseed (30 g/day to reduce testosterone)

Here is a complete blood test that I have done 3 weeks ago. It would be great if some of you may highlight some issue in it and maybe propose corrective action as he might help others with similar hair loss.

From my perspective, I think I have low zinc, low vitamin d, high prolactin level, high cortisol level and maybe iron deficiency as we can have it according to study even with normal level of blood iron.

BLOOD TEST of the 04.12.2020

Vitamin B12 : 812 ng/l (197-771)
Vitamin A : 0.5 mg/l (0.1-1)

IONIC BALANCE

Sodium : 139 mmol/l (136-145)
Potassium : 4 mmol/l (3.5-4.5)

PROTEIN

Albumin : 47 g/l (40-49)

RENAL FUNCTION

Urea : 46 mg/dl (17-48)
Creatinine : 0.94 mg/dl ( 0.7-1.2)
DFG (CKD-EPI) >90 mL/min/1.73m^2

LIVER/PANCREAS

AST(GOT) : 16 UI/L (<40)
ALT(GPT) : 10 UI/L (<41)
alkaline phosphatase : 55 UI/L (40-129)
Gamma GT : 10 UI/L (10-71)
LDH : 178 UI/L (135-225)
Biribulin total : 0.8 mg/dl (<1.2)
Biribulin conjugated : 0.3 mg/dl (<0.2)

CARDIOVASCULAR RISK FACTOR

Triglyceride : 68 mg/dl (<150)

CARBOHYDRATE METABOLISM

Fasting glucose level : 96 mg/dl (70-100)
Insulin : 39.7 mg/dl (17.8-173)
Index HOMA1-IR : 1.4 pmol/l (<2.4)

TYROID

TSH : 1.35 mu/l (0.27-4.20)
T4 libre : 17.8 pmol/l (12-22)

ADRENAL GLAND

Cortisol (morning test) : 480 nmol/l (166-507)

CALCIUMPHOSPHATE METABOLISM

Bioactive PTH (3nd gen) 25.5 ng/l < 49
25 OH vitamin D : 14.8 μg/l (30-80)

ENDOCRINOLOGY

Total prolactin : 18.2 μg/l (4-15.2)
Bioactive prolactin : 14.9 μg/l (3-11.6)
LH : 5.8 UI/L (1.7-8.6)
FSH : 1.9 UI/L (1.5-12.4)
Oestradiol : 30 ng/l (25-52)
Progesterone : 0.24 μg/l < (0.15
17OH-Progesterone : 3 ng/ml (0.9-3.4)
total Testosterone : 20.80 nmol/l (8.64-29)
Testosterone free: 509.1 pmol/l (260-740)
Androstanediol glucoronide 2.8 nmol/l (4-75)
Delta 4 androstenedione : 1.4 ng/ml (0.1-3)
DHEA-S : 4.72 μmol/l (4.34 – 12.20)
SHBG : 24 nmol/l (18.3-54.1)
DHT : I don’t have the result yet

TOXICOLOGY

Zinc : 72 μg/dl (80-120)

BLOOD

Haemoglobin : 16.6 g/dl (13-18)
Red blood cell : 5.40 10^6/
μl (4.40-5.90)
Hematocrit : 45.5% (40-53)
mean corpuscular volume : 84 fL (80-100)
mean corpuscular HB : 30.6 pg (26-34)
mean corpuscular haemoglobin concentration : 36.5 g/dl (31-35)
anisocytose indice : 12% (11.5-13.4)
platelet : 208 10^3/ μl (150- 440)
mean platelet volume : 10.1 fL (8.9-12.9)
white blood cell : 7.16 10^3/ μl (3.5-11)
neutrophiles : 62.1% (40-75)
neutrophiles (absolute): 4.44 10^3/ μl (1.5-6.7)
Lymphocytes : 25.4% (20-45)
Lymphocytes (absolute) : 1.82 10^3/ μl (1.2 – 3.5)
Monocytes : 10.6 % (2-10)
Monocytes (absolute) : 0.76 10^3/ μl (0.2 - 1)
Eosinophiles : 1.5% (2-10)
Eosinophiles (absolute) : 0.11 10^3/ μl (<0.4)
Basophiles : 0.4% (0-1)
Basophiles (absolute) : 0.03 10^3/ μl (<0.1)

INFLAMMATORY SYNDROM

Crp : <0.5 mg/dl (<5)

ANEMIA

Iron : 134 μg /dl (65-175)
Transferrin : 216 mg/dl (215 – 365)
Transferrin saturation : 44% (16-44)
Ferritin : 120 μg/l (30-300)
Folic acid : 4.8 μg/l (>4.6)
Folic acid erytrocytaire : 754 μg/l GR (523-1257)
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2939.jpg
    IMG_2939.jpg
    107.4 KB · Views: 13
  • IMG_2938.jpg
    IMG_2938.jpg
    101.1 KB · Views: 13
  • IMG_2940.jpg
    IMG_2940.jpg
    106.5 KB · Views: 15

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
There are some BCPs made with Progestins that have a lower androgen index but these are still Synthetic Progestins and if possible I'd stay away from them.

Read through some recommendations for alternative methods of Birth Control here: https://www.larabriden.com/causes-androgen-excess-in-women/
Are you there? I cannot find one of your post you have written to me. In your opiniom what kind of product should I use to make my estradiole higher to get some regrowing if minoxidile didn't help me? I am woman and you said estrogens in birthcontrol pill won't help me. My hairloss and diffuse thinning is on all of my head without exception. Also male hairloss.. I lost sideburns and my hairline went higher like 2 cm and it still going higher. No new hair. So what should I try to use? Divigel? Or what?
 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
.
A complete set of blood tests investigating for nutrient (ferritin, iron, vitamin d, zinc etc) deficiencies and hormones would be super helpful to post in this thread if you have them.

Would you be able to get your Estradiol blood serum retested at it's highest point of your cycle (day 19-21) rather than the lowest point (day 3) so you know if low Estradiol Levels are actually contributing to your hair thinning?

I'd suggest not adding any Pharmaceutical Estradiol (like divigel) until you know exactly what type of hair loss you have and if that loss is actually due to Low Estradiol Level. Do you already have a confirmed diagnosis of Androgenetic Alopecia/FPHL from a Dermatologist? If you have confirmed diagnosis of Androgenetic Alopecia/FPHL, how was it diagnosed (scalp biopsy, DHT level, etc)?
I have checked ferritin, iron, vitamid d and zinc. Everyrhing is fine.

I am sure it's androgenetic alopecia, it is confirmed by a few dermstologists by seeing my scalp using camera. I am sure also about DUPA but it's my opinion. It is not common case in my country and I doubt dermstologists know something about it. My DHT was 280 where max is 340. I had higher Amdrostendione, DHEAS04 and 17 OHP. I was in hospital and there is no physical explanation for this. My doctor said that sometimes there are people who have it for all life and it's might be just normal range for them. But still. 0 regrowing. I lost so many hairs and I will put on sports headband but all my head is affected so it may help hide for very short time because of the fact loosing hairs at nape, top, both sides of head, everywhere. This is happening faster and faster now.. Do there is no time to wait :(
 

Ivi

Established Member
My Regimen
Reaction score
0
.
A complete set of blood tests investigating for nutrient (ferritin, iron, vitamin d, zinc etc) deficiencies and hormones would be super helpful to post in this thread if you have them.

Would you be able to get your Estradiol blood serum retested at it's highest point of your cycle (day 19-21) rather than the lowest point (day 3) so you know if low Estradiol Levels are actually contributing to your hair thinning?

I'd suggest not adding any Pharmaceutical Estradiol (like divigel) until you know exactly what type of hair loss you have and if that loss is actually due to Low Estradiol Level. Do you already have a confirmed diagnosis of Androgenetic Alopecia/FPHL from a Dermatologist? If you have confirmed diagnosis of Androgenetic Alopecia/FPHL, how was it diagnosed (scalp biopsy, DHT level, etc)?
So do you have any idea how to cause any regrowing? Spironolactone, dutasteride and oral minoxidile don't help at all. 0 regrowing hair.
 
Top