Will rogaine + nizoral work without propecia?
- Thread starter alxne
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Whatever benefits you got from Propecia (even if it was just stopping or slowing down loss) will be lost when you stop it. Expect to see more hair falling. Trust me, I know.
Whether or not that can be made up for swith minoxidil and Nizoral is anyone's guess. It seems from the forums that there are more members who maintain for an extended period (5+ years) from propecia/finasteride than those who only use minoxidil/nizoral.
Though if the sides are that bad for you, maybe consider dutasteride?
Whether or not that can be made up for swith minoxidil and Nizoral is anyone's guess. It seems from the forums that there are more members who maintain for an extended period (5+ years) from propecia/finasteride than those who only use minoxidil/nizoral.
Though if the sides are that bad for you, maybe consider dutasteride?
I can almost promise you with 100% certainty that you won't maintain or regrow is you don't block DHT.
What dosage of finasteride are you using? A full 1mg? Try getting a pill cutter from wal-mart (or amazon) and taking .5mg doses. You could even go down to .25mg and see if that helps. Some DHT blocking will work better than none.
What dosage of finasteride are you using? A full 1mg? Try getting a pill cutter from wal-mart (or amazon) and taking .5mg doses. You could even go down to .25mg and see if that helps. Some DHT blocking will work better than none.
I've been halfing the pills, taking .5mg. Didn't see much difference apart from the crown area improved a bit. I would like to keep taking it but it wasn't going well due to sides! (I even had this twitchy thing going on for a month till i stopped - was probably in my head though as I was worrying about other sides too) :whistle:
alxne said:
Then put those worried out of your mind, take the .5mg and relax for a month or 2. Trust me, if you think you're going to get sides, you will. Hell, if you're worried about getting sides then you'll freak out every time you sneeze!
"OMG! I've never sneezed on a Friday @ 3:17pm before! IT MUST BE THE finasteride ATTACKING ME!!!!"
:woot:
kthxbi
Established Member
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^ what he said. if you felt uncomfortable with the sides or whatever then lower the dose for a bit and forget about it. maybe you'll see some regrowth on min without finasteride but it'll go just as quickly as it came if you don't have any decent DHT inhibitors in your regimen.
i hate to debunk the whole, 'less dosage of finasteride = almost as good results with less side effects theory',
but as the side effects are a direct result of less DHT, and the difference in DHT reduction is only a few % between .2mg and 5mg, U cant expect side effects to diminish any faster.
what im saying is that for EG, (and i dont have exact numbers off hand) if DHT is 80% lower with 1mg, and say 77% lower with .5mg, then u can expect the same small reduction for side effects.
U cant have half the side effects at the same time as having almost full benefits. Im not saying dont reduce the dose, im just saying dont expect a huge reduction in side effects without the same reduction in benefits.
but as the side effects are a direct result of less DHT, and the difference in DHT reduction is only a few % between .2mg and 5mg, U cant expect side effects to diminish any faster.
what im saying is that for EG, (and i dont have exact numbers off hand) if DHT is 80% lower with 1mg, and say 77% lower with .5mg, then u can expect the same small reduction for side effects.
U cant have half the side effects at the same time as having almost full benefits. Im not saying dont reduce the dose, im just saying dont expect a huge reduction in side effects without the same reduction in benefits.
Spanishlad
Established Member
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:agree:
Why do people keep claiming that it is impossible to maintain hair without finasteride when the studies show that people can maintain hair with just minoxidil?
Also, anxious1 is right - the side effects are a direct result of lowered DHT (should they really be called 'sides' at all?') so seeing as reducing the dose has little effect on the DHT levels then it's not likely to reduce the 'sides'.
Also, anxious1 is right - the side effects are a direct result of lowered DHT (should they really be called 'sides' at all?') so seeing as reducing the dose has little effect on the DHT levels then it's not likely to reduce the 'sides'.
I've been maintaing and have even regrew a little on min and nizoral alone for about 4 years now.
Some people here like to claim that they know the exact science behind how hair loss works and say that they know for a fact only finasteride can stop it. It's horse sh*t.
minoxidil will work pretty much as long as you use it. Although it does depend on how aggressive your hair loss is.
Some people here like to claim that they know the exact science behind how hair loss works and say that they know for a fact only finasteride can stop it. It's horse sh*t.
minoxidil will work pretty much as long as you use it. Although it does depend on how aggressive your hair loss is.
male pattern baldness is caused by DHT attacking your hair follicles.
minoxidil stimulates existing hair follicles to grow, but does nothing to protect them from DHT.
DHT keeps attacking your follicles until they die.
minoxidil no longer works on a dead follicle.
Baldness ensues.
Game Over.
minoxidil stimulates existing hair follicles to grow, but does nothing to protect them from DHT.
DHT keeps attacking your follicles until they die.
minoxidil no longer works on a dead follicle.
Baldness ensues.
Game Over.
Rawtashk said:
Yes but DHT attacks the hair follicle by binding itself and preventing blood flow...Minoxidil works by increasing blood flow which counters this. Or have I got it wrong? Maybe I have but that's the way that I understood it.
Why do the studies show taht people can maintain using minoxidil?
Tom1985 said:
I suppose thr trouble with minoxidil is applying it correctly. I've just been using the 2% on my temples which has maybe worked to slow the loss (but how would I really ever know?) - I am scared to star applying it to my crown though incase for some reason it makes it worse there...ah i dont know.
Thank you for your valuable insights Dr. Rawtashk. I have already sent the Rogaine company an email informing them that their product doesn't work because some guy on a message board says so.
Anyways, jd_uk. Applying Rogaine is not an exact science. Start buying the 5% and use the dropper to apply it to your hair line and crown
Anyways, jd_uk. Applying Rogaine is not an exact science. Start buying the 5% and use the dropper to apply it to your hair line and crown
Hate2LoseIt
Established Member
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I know a guy that has used minoxidil for the past 10 years and he has an ok head of hair and has kept most of...but not all. minoxidil has been good to him however
He has balding in his family and his brothers hair is worse off than his by far.
SOoooo...really, you just got to roll the dice and see.
If your not willing to eff up your natural hormone balance for the sake of some hair...then really you have no other options but to just try the next best available treatments.
Please dont listen to rawtashk though, he's a confused individual :gay: ....
You never know what might come of your regimen...
He has balding in his family and his brothers hair is worse off than his by far.
SOoooo...really, you just got to roll the dice and see.
If your not willing to eff up your natural hormone balance for the sake of some hair...then really you have no other options but to just try the next best available treatments.
Please dont listen to rawtashk though, he's a confused individual :gay: ....
You never know what might come of your regimen...
Tom1985 said:
Tom, tom, tom.....I would encourage you to read my posts and my posting history before you fly off the handle at me and put words in my mouth. Words that I have never said, and words that I would never say. I use Rogain (minoxidil). Why? Because it DOES WORK, but only at stimulating existing hair.
DHT is a derivative of testosterone. Testosterone converts to DHT with the aid of the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase. While the entire genetic process of male pattern baldness is not completely understood, scientists do know that DHT shrinks hair follicles, and that when DHT is suppressed, hair follicles continue to thrive.
The DHT does not just inhibit blood flow to the follicles, it miniaturizes them to the point where it can't produce hair.
Let me say it again, Rogain BY ITSELF will NOT stop your balding if it is due to excessive DHT.
Christ....
Rawtashk said:
Aren't you coveniently skipping a step in the logic? Isn't the miniaturization caused by the DHT preventing blood flow and not by some other magical process?
I'm of no doubt that finasteride is likely to be more successful than minoxidil because it targets the root cause of the problem but some of us just aren't prepared to tinker with our natural hormones (at least just yet), the potential dangers of doing so are real and lives have been ruined by it. Also, nobody knows what the long term effects could be.
But to say that minoxodil can't work alone when some people claim to have success and studies show that it can work is surely just spreading incorrect information?
So, again - although minoxidil doesn't target the root cause like DHT then surely it can work by countering the effect of DHT which is lack of blood flow to the follicle?
I'm serious about this question and looking for other opinions on it because at the end of the day we're all trying to achieve the same goal.
Primo
Experienced Member
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If you have slow, but steady recession as opposed to sudden, ultra-agressive male pattern baldness then minoxidil WILL make a difference.
E.g. My hairline has been receeding since Summer 2004 when I was 17, I was a NW3 last summer, but using minoxidil with nizoral + Tricomin for the last 11months, I am pretty much a NW2 again.
This kind of regimen would obviously not work for someone who is losing a Norwood every year, or with huge crown thinning, but then in the long term neither will Finasteride, as the agressive nature of their male pattern baldness will ultimately still come out on top despite a permanently altered hormone balance.
If we're talking about "maintenance" as in maintenance of base-line position, then yes based on my evidence so far I would fully expect the minoxidil + nizoral regimen to maintain my hair for 5+ years.
It's very easy to say "jump on finasteride" or some other powerful anti-androgen, but not so easy to repair the potential damage to your system that can occur anything from 1-12years down the line after taking these meds.
Also, I think it's extremely important to emphasise that minoxidil never actually "stops" working, and while haircounts for minoxidil may begin to fall slowly after 2years, you will still be in affect putting the brakes on your hairloss, slowing it down greatly therby preserving a lot more hair than would be on your head had you done nothing to begin with.
E.g. My hairline has been receeding since Summer 2004 when I was 17, I was a NW3 last summer, but using minoxidil with nizoral + Tricomin for the last 11months, I am pretty much a NW2 again.
This kind of regimen would obviously not work for someone who is losing a Norwood every year, or with huge crown thinning, but then in the long term neither will Finasteride, as the agressive nature of their male pattern baldness will ultimately still come out on top despite a permanently altered hormone balance.
If we're talking about "maintenance" as in maintenance of base-line position, then yes based on my evidence so far I would fully expect the minoxidil + nizoral regimen to maintain my hair for 5+ years.
It's very easy to say "jump on finasteride" or some other powerful anti-androgen, but not so easy to repair the potential damage to your system that can occur anything from 1-12years down the line after taking these meds.
Also, I think it's extremely important to emphasise that minoxidil never actually "stops" working, and while haircounts for minoxidil may begin to fall slowly after 2years, you will still be in affect putting the brakes on your hairloss, slowing it down greatly therby preserving a lot more hair than would be on your head had you done nothing to begin with.
DHT does not just inhibit blood flow to the follicles, it also slowly kills them off. Rogain can help, but it does not address the root cause and will not work long term on 95% (or more) of balding cases.
Now, if it's not aggressive balding, then it will probably do a bit of good just by itself. My dad is a shiny-topped NW6, do you think that applying rogaine to his head he would have stopped himself from hitting NW6 status? I would bet my house on it.
Here's what I've done with finasteride+Rogaine for 3+ years.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65594
Do you really think (compared to my dad and brother) that Rogaine by itself would have maintained that much hair?
Now, if it's not aggressive balding, then it will probably do a bit of good just by itself. My dad is a shiny-topped NW6, do you think that applying rogaine to his head he would have stopped himself from hitting NW6 status? I would bet my house on it.
Here's what I've done with finasteride+Rogaine for 3+ years.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65594
Do you really think (compared to my dad and brother) that Rogaine by itself would have maintained that much hair?