Will New Biotechnology Ever Work For Those With Diffuse Thinning?

[Gone]

The hair on the sides and back of my head has thinned about the same as the rest of my hair, with the hair on the top being thinner and my temples and hairline already receded. I started rapidly losing hair this year, I'm 18. I recently listened to the Riken interview with hairlosstalk, and already know quite a bit about replicel. Most of the new biotech requires you have healthy hair to take cells from, but all of mine is thin.

Am I in the minority, or do most balding men have to cut their thick permanent zones because it won't stop growing? If I am in the minority it seems this would be implied.

I'm discouraged. I'm not relying on histogen to provide great results because I can't stand how easy it is to pick apart most of their pictures, even the ones up close of the scalp. And I wish I didn't have to take drugs every week because almost every drug has side effects, unlike something like a replicel procedure.

If the permanent zones won't grow thick hair, I think this means that there is no way to take healthy hair cells from anywhere on your head, thus rendering Riken, replicel, and other treatments down the road useless. Is this accurate?

 

[KO1]

Nobody has absolutely any idea.

 

[Gone]

Honestly, I think the only way to make "donor hair" DHT resistant would be gene therapy, editing the cells themselves to keep their characteristics but disabling the DHT reaction. But this is probably far away as hell.

What this would imply about procedures like replicel's and Riken's is that it might not solve the thinning problem, I think that, without gene therapy, drugs will be the only way to stop the thinning. Which sucks because the future should be drugless, even CB and Samumed are bound to have side effects. I would enjoy being proven wrong about this though.

 

[Beowulf]

Statistics over pictures errrytime boi.

But seriously all they need is some of your hair cells, vellus hairs still have the cells but not many of them, I don't know if they'll have enough, but anything that is a hair and not vellus should. The only reason why they're so hot about hair from the back is that it's traditionally thought to have DHT immunity, but I think it's a little bit disputed. But the idea is that if you've got the money you can freeze some of your cells and just keep coming back whenever you need more hair. At least that's what I've heard so far, one never knows when a company is using slightly vague language to both throw off competition, and create false hope in their product.

Apart from that, gene therapy can in theory can totally cure baldness using an adreno-associated virus, but at this rate it looks like we'll be able to do it heaps quicker and cheaper with CRISPR, which is just being trialed in humans now.

I wouldn't be surprised if CRISPR follows very closely behind Riken.

In any case it might end up being something along the lines of totally bald people just using minoxidil, or any of the other drugs to get a bit of hair and then doing all the cellular stuff.

We're all gonna make it bro.

 

[dm900]

Gene therapy is so controversial that they're are agencies actively trying to stop it from ever being applied to humans. If CRISPR is ever used to fight disease it will be for life threatening ones like cystic fibrosis. I don't see this method ever being used to fight hairloss. However I don't think we will need it given what we have now and whats on the horizon.

 

[Grasshüpfer]

I just read a sci fi book contemplating some illegal gene therapy black market in Thailand, and I think we are basically there in a few years. Then again, even today you can always castrate yourself which I personally think is safer than have the androgen receptor fried on the gene level.

However... Tsuji has grown complete mouse skin with all layers, glands and hair, so eventually they will be able to grow hair and skin where ever you want.

 

[Grasshüpfer]

@Beowulf
I though the upside of the virus is that it's programmable to depend on a chemical, so you can stop it by stopping the chemical.

 

[Gone]

Statistics over pictures errrytime boi.

But seriously all they need is some of your hair cells, vellus hairs still have the cells but not many of them, I don't know if they'll have enough, but anything that is a hair and not vellus should. The only reason why they're so hot about hair from the back is that it's traditionally thought to have DHT immunity, but I think it's a little bit disputed. But the idea is that if you've got the money you can freeze some of your cells and just keep coming back whenever you need more hair. At least that's what I've heard so far, one never knows when a company is using slightly vague language to both throw off competition, and create false hope in their product.

Apart from that, gene therapy can in theory can totally cure baldness using an adreno-associated virus, but at this rate it looks like we'll be able to do it heaps quicker and cheaper with CRISPR, which is just being trialed in humans now.

I wouldn't be surprised if CRISPR follows very closely behind Riken.

In any case it might end up being something along the lines of totally bald people just using minoxidil, or any of the other drugs to get a bit of hair and then doing all the cellular stuff.

We're all gonna make it bro.

I hadn't heard of CRISPR until today, read on it a bit and it seems like it should totally be able to shut off the few genes we know of that are associated with balding. But knowing how dangerous gene editing can be tells me it's going to take forever. I think the technology itself will first have to be approved and then different companies testing it for hair loss will have to go through additional approval processes, not sure though.

I've been reading about Breezula for most of today, because unless some perfect DHT blocker gets rapidly approved, CB is probably going to be the AA of next generation. I hope the side effects aren't bad.

Using CB + SM should actually work. Theoretically. I think people will be on those drugs until CRISPR or gene editing.

 

[Gone]

I just read a sci fi book contemplating some illegal gene therapy black market in Thailand, and I think we are basically there in a few years. Then again, even today you can always castrate yourself which I personally think is safer than have the androgen receptor fried on the gene level.

However... Tsuji has grown complete mouse skin with all layers, glands and hair, so eventually they will be able to grow hair and skin where ever you want.

I do hope that Riken works for the people that need it, but I don't think they are planning on creating 100% dht resistant hairs. If they take the stem cells from the back of the scalp the new hair will probably be just as thin and flinsy as the donor hair, which is not going to meet my standards. Hence striving for thick hair that will actually grow.

 

[Beowulf]

Gene therapy is so controversial that they're are agencies actively trying to stop it from ever being applied to humans. If CRISPR is ever used to fight disease it will be for life threatening ones like cystic fibrosis. I don't see this method ever being used to fight hairloss. However I don't think we will need it given what we have now and whats on the horizon.

It's already happening, there was a conference about it, but all they reached was a hazy conclusion that we should just be careful, but that sure hasn't stopped the Chinese.

However... Tsuji has grown complete mouse skin with all layers, glands and hair, so eventually they will be able to grow hair and skin where ever you want.

I wouldn't be surprised if we all just end up getting scalp transplants.

I though the upside of the virus is that it's programmable to depend on a chemical, so you can stop it by stopping the chemical.

Yeah, the only problem with that is that you'd need to apply the chemical everyday. Cool thing is that you can make it only effect fat cells, so the AAV wouldn't attack your brain or prostate. It also doesn't permanently destroy the androgen receptors, it just stops them from doing anything. It's more like an almost permanent AR blocker for all of your skin, so no acne either.

If they take the stem cells from the back of the scalp the new hair will probably be just as thin and flinsy as the donor hair

Thin hair doesn't have a different type of cell in it, it just has less cells.


The thing about CRISPR is that it's insanely cheap (less than $30 US) and very simple, and all we really need to do is get rid of the androgen receptor genes in our scalp. Yeah there are like 200 genes that are also involved, but it's the AR genes that are at the center of the whole thing. The only problem I really see with it is that you'd have to change like 100,000 genes or something. That's the real upside to the AAV since it can just do it all at once. But there probably is a way to make multiple cuts. On top of that heaps of people want to get behind it to make it as effective as possible since it's so cheap.

In any case I'm really looking forward to all the awesome things we'll be able to do with CRISPR.

 

[Pray The Bald Away]

IPS cells can be turned into hair cells without any present hair. That will be the saving grace for people with DUPA. Riken will probably also allow you to store cells for future use, which should help.

 

[Gone]

Thin hair doesn't have a different type of cell in it, it just has less cells.

Could you explain this? Hair miniaturizes due to dht and gets thin. I've perceived thinning hair as hair that is affected by dht but not to the extent that it miniaturizes.

 

[Gone]

IPS cells can be turned into hair cells without any present hair. That will be the saving grace for people with DUPA. Riken will probably also allow you to store cells for future use, which should help.

IPS as in stem cells taken from the scalp? If not, where would the stem cells come from? If they are taken from donor hair on the scalp then I think the hair that they grow will be just as dht sensitive as the hair that was already lost.

 

[Beowulf]

Could you explain this? Hair miniaturizes due to dht and gets thin. I've perceived thinning hair as hair that is affected by dht but not to the extent that it miniaturizes.

Here's a quote Swoop gave from Olsen (2003)

As affected hair follicles continue to cycle, they undergo a process of progressive miniaturization. Concurrently, the size of the dermal papillae, which is known to correlate with the size of the hair follicle and hair shaft produced, also decreases (Hardy, 1992; Paus and Cotsarelis, 1999; Messenger, 2003). The end result is the production of smaller, unpigmented vellus hairs instead of larger, pigmented terminal hairs. Although the follicles do progressively get smaller, the overall scalp follicle density appears to be preserved until late in the course of hair loss when follicles are eventually destroyed (for a thorough description, see Olsen, 2003).

There's also heaps of other studies in the publishes studies page that tell similar stories. Essentially the dermal papilla cells are what generate the hair follicle. DHT seems to attack and kill the dermal papilla cells which means that the next time they generate a hair follicle it comes out smaller since there are less cells to generate it from.

Keep in mind that hair miniturisation happens over cycles. Your hair doesn't start shrinking. It falls out, and then next time it is regrown it comes back smaller than before, with a shorter growth period and max length, and less pigmentation.

 

[KO1]

^There is a change in cells as well as the DP cells become senescent and the bulge gets damaged. That Cotsarelis 1999 and Olsen 2003 are good papers. One thing they propose is that both androgens and treatments are active during the resting/telogen phase which explains why they are slow to act. Unclear whether this is true.

 

[Beowulf]

bulge gets damaged

It disappears a long with the sebaceous gland doesn't it?