Why The 'prostaglandin Protocol' Will Make Your Face Look Like sh*t

IdealForehead

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Just a followup regarding the study @bridgeburn posted. Here is the most pertinent excerpt that explains how mast cells play a role in male hair loss, and thus how antihistamines (which deactivate them) can help:

Although androgens are primarily responsible for MPHL [14, 15, 22], the implication of microscopic inflammation in the pathogenesis of MPHL was also suggested from several studies [17, 19, 26, 28]. Sueki, et al. analyzed MC infiltration quantitatively and the ultra-structures of alopecic scalp areas, and suggested that micro-inflammation probably accelerates MPHL by inducing aberrant fibrosis [26].

Mast cells are well known to play a critical role in allergic diseases and to be implicated in inflammatory disorders [24]. In addition, mast cell accumulations are often observed in fibrotic disorders of the skin, e.g., keloid, systemic sclerosis, and during wound healing [9, 18, 21, 23, 30]. The effects of activated mast cells on dermal fibroblast proliferation and collagen and glycosaminoglycans synthesis have been well demonstrated [1, 2]. Moreover, it has also been suggested that mediators and enzymes of mast cells are key initiating agents of perifollicular micro-inflammation and perifollicular fibrosis [19, 26]. MCs may directly or indirectly synthesize and release several mediators capable of modulating extracellular matrix production and degradation [7, 12]. These mediators include TNF-alpha, transforming growth factor (TGF)-beta, prostaglandin (PG)-D2, and basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF) [1, 7, 12, 13]. TGF-beta is considered a key element in the fibrotic process [3, 29]. Furthermore, tryptase is known to stimulate fibroblast proliferation, to induce mRNAs required for collagen production [5, 13, 25], to increase elastin production in fibroblasts in bladder walls [11]. Therefore, MC accumulations might be responsible for increased collagen and elastic fiber synthesis in MPHL.

Regarding MPHL, Yoo et al. [34], demonstrated that androgen directly stimulated procollagen synthesis in bald scalp skin, and increase in elastic fibers was observed with the progression of alopecia [4], thus some type of dermal matrix remodeling in alopecia lesions appears to contribute to the miniaturization of hair follicles, a well known feature of MPHL.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18286292

Long story short, mast cells are the primary inflammatory cells that are triggered by the androgenic cascade into provoking inflammation and scarring of the skin which is actually what is leading to the destruction of our follicles. Antihistamines tell the mast cells to "stop".

Again, antihistamines should therefore be able to therefore induce positive hair changes without destructive skin changes.

The excerpt above also highlights again why I think seti/fevi will be weak at best. Inflammatory changes in the scalp are so much bigger than just PGD2. There are so many negative inflammatory mediators triggered by the balding process.
 

AllerganSaveUs

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The problem you have to keep in mind with drawing too many conclusions from forum posts is that the types of guys who hang out on hair loss forums tend to be the HARDEST cases. For example, neither finasteride or dutasteride worked for me. That is incredibly rare. But yet that was the case. And that is why I have gone on to progressively more experimental means.

Easy cases that use minoxidil topicallly and get a good response or take finasteride and get solid regrowth with no side effects won't post on web forums. Guys who fail conventional therapies will. And guys who fail conventional therapies will likely overall have a higher probability of failing unconventional therapies too as they may have more aggressive hair loss genetics or other complicating factors.

Using minoxidil alone in my opinion is foolish and many men who do so (even the easy cases) will continue to lose hair. I think using cetirizine alone would also be foolish and many men will also continue to lose hair. These in my opinion should be considered potential adjuncts to antiandrogens.

The pictures were of their best outcomes not the typical outcomes. Just like with finasteride or minoxidil, only a small percent will get massive obvious results but overall they are still valid treatments.

The other complicating factor for cetirizine is it can degrade in alcohol vehicles. If people were adding it to 30% alcohol standard solutions, it is unknown how much would remain by the time they apply it to their scalps. Again, this is why I have ordered desloratadine instead. It is stable in alcohol.

When it comes to the experiences of random guys on web forums vs. the published peer-reviewed findings of professional medical researchers from top universities, I will always take the findings of those published researchers first.

Good point, I thought people here were unusual cases but then I started to doubt it and thought maybe they are the usual and these drugs just are not very good. I typically agree with you in clinical data > anecdotal. I am just incredibly suspicious of the many LLLT studies showing benefit while anecdotal evidence/general enthusiasm is lacking, even with a large amount of marketing and sales of LLLT devices. I have seen studies with Cetrizine being taken as high as 50mg for a few months, maybe that would be beneficial if a person could tolerate it?
 

IdealForehead

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Good point, I thought people here were unusual cases but then I started to doubt it and thought maybe they are the usual and these drugs just are not very good. I typically agree with you in clinical data > anecdotal. I am just incredibly suspicious of the many LLLT studies showing benefit while anecdotal evidence/general enthusiasm is lacking, even with a large amount of marketing and sales of LLLT devices. I have seen studies with Cetrizine being taken as high as 50mg for a few months, maybe that would be beneficial if a person could tolerate it?

Holy sh*t. If I take 10 mg of cetirizine orally it knocks me out. Good luck with that. I would rather just apply it to my head.

As for LLLT, it's complicated. We don't have a clearly defined dose-response curve. Too much LLLT inhibits hair growth. Too little is ineffective. We don't have clear parameters for how much and how often to use it.
 

AllerganSaveUs

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Holy sh*t. If I take 10 mg of cetirizine orally it knocks me out. Good luck with that. I would rather just apply it to my head.

As for LLLT, it's complicated. We don't have a clearly defined dose-response curve. Too much LLLT inhibits hair growth. Too little is ineffective. We don't have clear parameters for how much and how often to use it.
I have taken Cetirizine multiple times (about 10, not at once lol) to attempt to stop the itching in my scalp. It had no noticeable effects on me. Should I go full YOLO??
 

bridgeburn

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These mediators include TNF-alpha, transforming growth factor (TGF)-beta, prostaglandin (PG)-D2, and basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF) [1, 7, 12, 13]. TGF-beta is considered a key element in the fibrotic process
Minoxidil inhibits TGFb
"inhibits of TGF beta induced apoptosis of hair matrix cells by opening the Kir 6.0 channel pore coupled with SUR on the mitochondrial inner membrane,"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11915519
 

IdealForehead

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Minoxidil inhibits TGFb
"inhibits of TGF beta induced apoptosis of hair matrix cells by opening the Kir 6.0 channel pore coupled with SUR on the mitochondrial inner membrane,"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11915519

Neat. Looks like the more we learn, we'll probably start seeing more convergences in how different approaches accomplish similar goals.

I have taken Cetirizine multiple times (about 10, not at once lol) to attempt to stop the itching in my scalp. It had no noticeable effects on me. Should I go full YOLO??

"Adverse events reported after an intake of at least 5 times the recommended daily dose are: confusion, diarrhoea, dizziness, fatigue, headache, malaise, mydriasis, pruritus, restlessness, sedation, somnolence, stupor, tachycardia, tremor, and urinary retention. There is no known specific antidote to cetirizine."

How about you just put it on your scalp like we're talking about?
 

IdealForehead

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So on top of cetrizine, what would you recommend?

I might attempt wounding, ceti, and vit A like in a study posted in a similar thread.

I don't know any perfect solution. I used to use retinoids for years for my face for acne (differin) but I started developing dry eyes. My acne is now perfectly controlled a water based solution of 5% niacinamide and 2% GHK-Cu.

Either way, I avoid retinoids now.

Ceti has to be put in a water base. If you use it in alcohol, it may degrade. Desloratadine is the best option for alcohol based topicals.

You should still be using anti-androgens of course - topical or oral. This mast cell stabilizing effect of anti-histamines is downstream and we should never neglect the most upstream approaches as well.

I used to wound with a Derminator as well. But I was never blown away by the result and hated doing it every week or few weeks so I just stopped. I have no intention to punch holes in my skin for the next 50 years. Better to just manage it with good topical chemicals in my opinion. Easier and less painful. More pleasant.
 

sunchyme1

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I don't know any perfect solution. I used to use retinoids for years for my face for acne (differin) but I started developing dry eyes. My acne is now perfectly controlled a water based solution of 5% niacinamide and 2% GHK-Cu.

Either way, I avoid retinoids now.

Ceti has to be put in a water base. If you use it in alcohol, it may degrade. Desloratadine is the best option for alcohol based topicals.

You should still be using anti-androgens of course - topical or oral. This mast cell stabilizing effect of anti-histamines is downstream and we should never neglect the most upstream approaches as well.

I used to wound with a Derminator as well. But I was never blown away by the result and hated doing it every week or few weeks so I just stopped. I have no intention to punch holes in my skin for the next 50 years. Better to just manage it with good topical chemicals in my opinion. Easier and less painful. More pleasant.

sorry if youve already said this somewhere but what is the problem with a water base topical?
 

IdealForehead

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sorry if youve already said this somewhere but what is the problem with a water base topical?

Nothing and LMAO at your avatar. Except the only useful things you'll get in a water based topical are:

Naicinamide (5% is good)
Cu-GHK (2% is good)
Cetirizine (1% is good)

That's actually not a bad topical to try. But you would need to be on an oral antiandrogen (eg. finasteride, dutasteride, cypro, spironolactone, etc.).

If you're using topical minoxidil, RU58841, darolutamide/enzalutamide, a water based vehicle won't dissolve those.
 

sunchyme1

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Nothing and LMAO at your avatar. Except the only useful things you'll get in a water based topical are:

Naicinamide (5% is good)
Cu-GHK (2% is good)
Cetirizine (1% is good)

That's actually not a bad topical to try. But you would need to be on an oral antiandrogen (eg. finasteride, dutasteride, cypro, spironolactone, etc.).

If you're using topical minoxidil, RU58841, darolutamide/enzalutamide, a water based vehicle won't dissolve those.

whats your regimen and hairloss story mate?

i hope you stick around here, i like reading your stuff.

this place needs more guys like you and whatevr etc looking into alternative ways to beat this f****r
 

IdealForehead

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whats your regimen and hairloss story mate?

i hope you stick around here, i like reading your stuff.

this place needs more guys like you and whatevr etc looking into alternative ways to beat this f****r

Started balding around mid 20s but very slow.
Was scared of finasteride for years so just ignored it and pretended it wasn't happening.
Once I started getting past NW1.5 to around NW2 I started getting nervous, tried finasteride for a year, no improvement.
Tried dutasteride for a year no improvement.
Found out neither reduces my DHT (must be some genetic variation).
Switched to RU5% + minoxidil 5% & had good response for a year.
Dropped to RU 3.7% and dropped minoxidil for year and lost again.
At my worst 2 months ago I was a deep NW2 with thinning to the NW3 range.
Freaked out, got on spironolactone and oral minoxidil, then cypro and oral minoxidil, then topical darolutamide.
Now I'm just on topical: 0.5% darolutamide, 7.5% RU58841, 5% niacinamide, 3-4% minoxidil - 2 mL twice daily
At present I'm back into the NW1.5-2 range with no deep thinning and I'm rapidly growing back to a NW1.
If everything continues at the current rate, I'll be back to NW1 in 2 months maybe.

I probably won't stick around much longer, because my problem is basically solved. I'm just waiting for the regrowth to finish at this point. Then I'm gonna sub minoxidil for desloratadine, and that's basically it.

I consider myself cured already just based on what's happened in the past 2 months though it will be 1-2 months more to be absolutely sure.

I've got a scalp expander implanted for a forehead reduction as I was born with a freakishly high forehead. Once I'm NW1 I'll finish that. If the scar looks good I'm done, if not, I'll cover it with a few transplants.
 

sunchyme1

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Started balding around mid 20s but very slow.
Was scared of finasteride for years so just ignored it and pretended it wasn't happening.
Once I started getting past NW1.5 to around NW2 I started getting nervous, tried finasteride for a year, no improvement.
Tried dutasteride for a year no improvement.
Found out neither reduces my DHT (must be some genetic variation).
Switched to RU5% + minoxidil 5% & had good response for a year.
Dropped to RU 3.7% and dropped minoxidil for year and lost again.
At my worst 2 months ago I was a deep NW2 with thinning to the NW3 range.
Freaked out, got on spironolactone and oral minoxidil, then cypro and oral minoxidil, then topical darolutamide.
Now I'm just on topical: 0.5% darolutamide, 7.5% RU58841, 5% niacinamide, 3-4% minoxidil - 2 mL twice daily
At present I'm back into the NW1.5-2 range with no deep thinning and I'm rapidly growing back to a NW1.
If everything continues at the current rate, I'll be back to NW1 in 2 months maybe.

I probably won't stick around much longer, because my problem is basically solved. I'm just waiting for the regrowth to finish at this point. Then I'm gonna sub minoxidil for desloratadine, and that's basically it.

I consider myself cured already just based on what's happened in the past 2 months though it will be 1-2 months more to be absolutely sure.

I've got a scalp expander implanted for a forehead reduction as I was born with a freakishly high forehead. Once I'm NW1 I'll finish that. If the scar looks good I'm done, if not, I'll cover it with a few transplants.

Any sides with any of this stuff?

I know minoxdil made you look like sh*t.
 

stachu

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Jesus Hormones are more addicting than drugs.
 

IdealForehead

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Any sides with any of this stuff?

I know minoxdil made you look like sh*t.

Cypro and spironolactone both caused sexual dysfunction as expected. Both reduced and delayed orgasm with reduced orgasm intensity.

spironolactone made me piss constantly and always be thirsty which is why i stopped it. Cypro was making me depressed (30% side effect) which is why i stopped it.

Minoxidil bags under eyes and headaches.

Still have residual sexual dysfunction from cypro which i stopped a week ago so hard to judge if the topical are causing any issue.

I also decided today i should stop p**rn because it's creating unrealistic standards for me so that may cause sexual dysfunction for a withdrawal period. So far as i can tell though the topicals are all fine.
 

justadude

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I don't know any perfect solution. I used to use retinoids for years for my face for acne (differin) but I started developing dry eyes. My acne is now perfectly controlled a water based solution of 5% niacinamide and 2% GHK-Cu.

Either way, I avoid retinoids now.

Ceti has to be put in a water base. If you use it in alcohol, it may degrade. Desloratadine is the best option for alcohol based topicals.

You should still be using anti-androgens of course - topical or oral. This mast cell stabilizing effect of anti-histamines is downstream and we should never neglect the most upstream approaches as well.

I used to wound with a Derminator as well. But I was never blown away by the result and hated doing it every week or few weeks so I just stopped. I have no intention to punch holes in my skin for the next 50 years. Better to just manage it with good topical chemicals in my opinion. Easier and less painful. More pleasant.

How long do you keep the topicals on your head?
 

Trichosan

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I also decided today i should stop p*rn because it's creating unrealistic standards for me so that may cause sexual dysfunction for a withdrawal period. So far as i can tell though the topicals are all fine.

Glad to hear that. I've been preaching about that and other virtual reality substitutes for years. Difficult because probably worse than quitting cigarettes.
 

IdealForehead

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Glad to hear that. I've been preaching about that and other virtual reality substitutes for years. Difficult because probably worse than quitting cigarettes.

Yeah vr p**rn has been a mindfuck. I loved it at first. Now i realize the only way i could fulfill that expectation going forward is to spend thousands of dollars on hookers and sugar babies which i actually technically could financially afford but i think would be mentally very unhealthy as I'm not a sociopath and getting into the habit of buying people who are repulsed by me for sex probably wouldn't sit right with me over time.

I don't know. No easy answers. Best answer is to be superchad. But that's not a real choice in life.
 
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