What is the most effective way to lower Cholesterol?

[docj077]

I don't really trust those extended-release forms.

I was unsure at first, as well. But, it's probably one of the few things that is keeping me awake as I don't take in any caffeine of any sort.

 

[LookingGood!]

Good idea, CCS!

I've been shocked in recent years about the trend toward individual vitamin C supplements which are getting larger and larger. Years ago, I actually used to be able to get 100 mg tablets. Then those went away, and the smallest available was 250 mg. Now those appear to be gone (at least, I haven't been able to find any), and 500 mg tablets are currently the smallest I can find. That's an obvious indication of how confident the public is getting at taking supplementary vitamin C: when I first started taking them about 37 years ago, people were worried that it might be REALLY DANGEROUS to take much more than the RDA (about 30-60 mg)!

Until very recently, I'd been using 250 mg vitamin C tabs from HEB grocery stores. They were neatly scored down the middle, and I could easily snap them into two pieces, each half being 125 mg. I'd take one of those halves several times throughout the day. Then a few months ago, I noticed that they weren't selling the 250's anymore. All they have now are 500's, and they aren't scored. Now I'm forced to break the 500's into halves (which requires some effort), and then break the halves into quarters. I am NOT a happy camper because of that! :evil:

Bryan

No offense Bryan but, I am having a hard time buying into this idealogy that small doses of Vitamin C thru out the day will have an impact on TC or LDLs. The biggest problem with the vitamin industry is that there are no established dosages for anything. The current research is clouded with flaws. Why should I believe this approach over time released or over any supplementation?
The dosages are obviously not established. The only notion I feel is somewhat accurate is the idea or mystique vitamin supplementation offers over conventional medicine such as Lipitor and the other statins. "Well I'll try the natural approach and see if it can help, when in fact it may in the end only put a hole in your pocket or create a placebo effect. Does hanging on to a pipe dream sound familiar?

 

[Bryan]

Well, all I can do is suggest that you study the scientific literature having to do with the oxidative theory of atherosclerosis, and make your own decision. I've made mine.

Bryan

 

[LookingGood!]

Sure I have read up on it but you seem to be zig zagging away from what I was implying.
Does your current "protocol" impact your lipid profile in a positive way?
Do you take or have ever taken statins? You are at or around 50 yrs correct?
How can you be sure that these smaller, timely doses of vitamin C are the imposing influence?

If you do not have a lipid issue then you are saying that they sustain your normal levels?

Thanks for your time.

 

[Felk]

My multivitamin has...

2500 IU of vitamin A (20% beta carotene)
250mg of vitamin C
100 IU of vitamin E
50mcg of selenium

...in each tablet, and you are supposed to take 2 per day, making double those levels. From the above discussion, I take it cutting these in half and taking the four halves throughout the day would be a good idea?

 

[Bryan]

Sure I have read up on it but you seem to be zig zagging away from what I was implying.
Does your current "protocol" impact your lipid profile in a positive way?

What do you mean, "impact" it? Impact it in what way?

Do you take or have ever taken statins? You are at or around 50 yrs correct?

I've never taken statin drugs. I'm 56 years old.

How can you be sure that these smaller, timely doses of vitamin C are the imposing influence?

"Imposing influence"?

I don't mean to point to vitamin C as being the ONLY factor important for a healthy cardiovascular system. I strongly believe in using a synergistic combination of nutrients, as I've mentioned before. But vitamin C is certainly an important element of a total supplementation program.

If you do not have a lipid issue then you are saying that they sustain your normal levels?

I'm not sure what you mean.

Bryan

 

[joseph49853]

Sure I have read up on it but you seem to be zig zagging away from what I was implying.
Does your current "protocol" impact your lipid profile in a positive way?
Do you take or have ever taken statins? You are at or around 50 yrs correct?
How can you be sure that these smaller, timely doses of vitamin C are the imposing influence?

If you do not have a lipid issue then you are saying that they sustain your normal levels?

Thanks for your time.

Vitamin C isn't going to lower total cholesterol, but instead do very beneficial things as an anti-oxidant, and anti-inflammatory. Although, any doctor who looks solely at total cholesterol, probably also has a bunch of thirty-year old scientific journals lying around his/her office. Most knowledgeable cardiologists are abreast of newer information concerning things like oxidized LDL, LDL/HDL particle size and ratio, Lp(a,) C-reactive protein, homocysteine etc. as being far better predictors of coronary heart disease. Incidentally, none of these things in fact are greatly affected by statins.

Yet, simple over-the-counter vitamins such as vitamin C can help lower CRP, vitamin B3 can help lower Lp(a). Of course, vitamin B6 and B12 can also help lower homocycteine. This cheap, yet effective, atherosclerosis prevention all comes without the common statin-related side effects, such as myopathy, rhabdomylosis, memory loss, transient global amnesia, neurodegenerative disorders etc.

A patient, in fact, could live their whole life without ever injesting a single statin, but without vitamin C, or B vitamins, there's a greater potential for disease and early mortality.

 

[joseph49853]

I like how the author took the stupidity of the common gluttonous American and turned it on doctors and pharmaceutical companies.

Doctors know what is said in that article, but the sad part is that even the author twisted the truth. Statins are not proven to prevent heart disease, but they are proven to prolong life and that's really all that matters.

People need to stop blaming their healthcare providers and the companies supplying the drugs and start blaming themselves for how they treat their bodies.

How'd did this become an American issue? Your biases aside, statins are the number one prescribed drug worldwide, the number one prescribed drug in the history of the world. This is a worldwide self-imposed epidemic.

And you'd be surprised what general practitioners know. I've spoken with a few as of very recently. Matter of fact, you'd be surprised how much fundamentally they don't know. And I'm not just talking about concerns outside of their specialty. The average doctor isn't even smart enough to suggest taking the very thing that statins deplete, CoQ10. They don't even understand why CoQ10 -- or cholesterol for that matter -- is so vital to human function.

But I'd really like to see a single scientific study in a wide range of patients that demonstrably proves that statins, especially as they currently exist (and in their prescribed dosages,) help to decrease mortality, and increase quality of life. And by quality of life, I mean, free from some of the most damaging statin-related side effects.

 

[LookingGood!]

Sure I have read up on it but you seem to be zig zagging away from what I was implying.
Does your current "protocol" impact your lipid profile in a positive way?
Do you take or have ever taken statins? You are at or around 50 yrs correct?
How can you be sure that these smaller, timely doses of vitamin C are the imposing influence?

If you do not have a lipid issue then you are saying that they sustain your normal levels?

Thanks for your time.

Vitamin C isn't going to lower total cholesterol, but instead do very beneficial things as an anti-oxidant, and anti-inflammatory. Although, any doctor who looks solely at total cholesterol, probably also has a bunch of thirty-year old scientific journals lying around his/her office. Most knowledgeable cardiologists are abreast of newer information concerning things like oxidized LDL, LDL/HDL particle size and ratio, Lp(a,) C-reactive protein, homocysteine etc. as being far better predictors of coronary heart disease. Incidentally, none of these things in fact are greatly affected by statins.

Yet, simple over-the-counter vitamins such as vitamin C can help lower CRP, vitamin B3 can help lower Lp(a). Of course, vitamin B6 and B12 can also help lower homocycteine. This cheap, yet effective, atherosclerosis prevention all comes without the common statin-related side effects, such as myopathy, rhabdomylosis, memory loss, transient global amnesia, neurodegenerative disorders etc.

A patient, in fact, could live their whole life without ever injesting a single statin, but without vitamin C, or B vitamins, there's a greater potential for disease and early mortality.

We are on the same page Joseph. I take in alot of Vitamin C thru fruits and time released 1000 mg Vitamin C supplementation 2-3 X a day.
The thing that puzzles me the most is that my genetic markers such as Homocysteine, LpA, CRP protein are all outstanding. Whether they are that way genetically or b/c of my healthy lifestyle remains to be seen, YET my doctor wanted to put me on a statin. When I mentioned to him these values he was like it's not important and blew it off. I guess he didnt like the fact that I knew more than the average patient. He said come back in February after the holidays get a new nutritional consult or tweak your exsisting eating habits. The second MD said lets take advanced testing such as the cardio cat scan and try some niacin as well as get an updated nutritional consult. She didnt feel comfortable with putting me on statins.
Also, if you can Joseph, go to WEBMD and look under the lowering cholesterol discussion boards with that Doctor Michael. He frowns on CRP tests and only answers a select number of questions that are obvious patients suitable for statins. :shock:

 

[LookingGood!]

Great article today in the NY Times Science times section.

"An old Cholesterol Remedy is New Again"
by Michael Mason

They discussed resurgence of niacin as an effective tool to raise HDLs and promote healthy cardiovascular function.
Does of 2000 mg a day have been shown to raise the good cholesterol up 35%. It also lowers LDLs but not as sharply as the statins do.
80 thousand heart patients who participated in 23 different clinical trials, researchers from the U of Washington analyed the data and found that those that included a regimen with niacin increased HDL by 30% and lowered LDL by 40% and that in the average patient it would lower the risk of MI and stroke by 70%. They go on to say that this far more than what could be achieved by lowering LDL alone. Promising! :lol:
They did caution that niacin can be toxic to some and cause liver damage and could possibly impair the body's use of glucose. High does should only be taken under a doctor's supervision.
Another frequent side effect is flushing which is harmless and somewhat annoying. I exp'd it and it lasted about 15 minutes. It can be avoided by taking the pills before bedtime with a bit food. Doctors recommend starting with smaller doses and working up to larger ones.
There are extended release forms out there that can be taken once a day which I know Bryan will nay on :shock:
Merck is also coming out with a drug to counteract the flushing and if it works they will bundle it with zocor.
Some doctors at the Cleveland clinic support the evidence that patients can benefit from niacin supplementation. That's refreshing!
Well, I am currently on Ortomolecular's 500mg of extended release niacin 3 times a day. I get by blood checked in February.
I wonder if it will work well with the red yeast rice, plant sterols and policosanol I am taking. Well we'll just have to wait and see.

They also discussed the failure of Pfizer's Torcetrapib b/c it caused heart problems and death rates in the test population.

 

[docj077]

Great article today in the NY Times Science times section.

"An old Cholesterol Remedy is New Again"
by Michael Mason

They discussed resurgence of niacin as an effective tool to raise HDLs and promote healthy cardiovascular function.
Does of 2000 mg a day have been shown to raise the good cholesterol up 35%. It also lowers LDLs but not as sharply as the statins do.
80 thousand heart patients who participated in 23 different clinical trials, researchers from the U of Washington analyed the data and found that those that included a regimen with niacin increased HDL by 30% and lowered LDL by 40% and that in the average patient it would lower the risk of MI and stroke by 70%. They go on to say that this far more than what could be achieved by lowering LDL alone. Promising! :lol:
They did caution that niacin can be toxic to some and cause liver damage and could possibly impair the body's use of glucose. High does should only be taken under a doctor's supervision.
Another frequent side effect is flushing which is harmless and somewhat annoying. I exp'd it and it lasted about 15 minutes. It can be avoided by taking the pills before bedtime with a bit food. Doctors recommend starting with smaller doses and working up to larger ones.
There are extended release forms out there that can be taken once a day which I know Bryan will nay on :shock:
Merck is also coming out with a drug to counteract the flushing and if it works they will bundle it with zocor.
Some doctors at the Cleveland clinic support the evidence that patients can benefit from niacin supplementation. That's refreshing!
Well, I am currently on Ortomolecular's 500mg of extended release niacin 3 times a day. I get by blood checked in February.
I wonder if it will work well with the red yeast rice, plant sterols and policosanol I am taking. Well we'll just have to wait and see.

They also discussed the failure of Pfizer's Torcetrapib b/c it caused heart problems and death rates in the test population.

All you have to do to counter the flushing with Niacin is take an aspirin if you miss a dose. Otherwise, flushing shouldn't be a problem unless you're not taking the Niacin at the same everyday.

 

[Bryan]

I actually find the niacin flush to be a rather interesting and pleasant experience. I can't imagine that it would be a significant problem for anyone.

Bryan

 

[docj077]

I actually find the niacin flush to be a rather interesting and pleasant experience. I can't imagine that it would be a significant problem for anyone.

Bryan

A lot of people (including a professor of mine) complain of not only flushing, but a very uncomfortable and itchy rash that develops, as well. Many people also become lightheaded and have to lay down for a prolonged period of time.

 

[Bryan]

I've also read that some kids like to take niacin just before they go partying or clubbing, with the idea that the reddened "flush" makes them look distinctive or cool (or whatever) on the dance floor, etc.! :wink:

Bryan

 

[LookingGood!]

Sure I have read up on it but you seem to be zig zagging away from what I was implying.
Does your current "protocol" impact your lipid profile in a positive way?

What do you mean, "impact" it? Impact it in what way?

I mean what are you taking to keep your lipid profile in normal range.

[ mean to point to vitamin C as being the ONLY factor important for a healthy cardiovascular system. I strongly believe in using a synergistic combination of nutrients, as I've mentioned before. But vitamin C is certainly an important element of a total supplementation program.

What is working synergistically? Please elaborate.



Thank you for your time.
-LG

 

[LookingGood!]

I actually find the niacin flush to be a rather interesting and pleasant experience. I can't imagine that it would be a significant problem for anyone.

Bryan

Pleasant???? :freaked2: It looked like I layed out in the sun all afternoon w/o sunscreen and in blotches b/c the sun shifted! :lol:

 

[LookingGood!]

I've also read that some kids like to take niacin just before they go partying or clubbing, with the idea that the reddened "flush" makes them look distinctive or cool (or whatever) on the dance floor, etc.! :wink:

Bryan

You cant be serious!! There is no way they will hook up with that look! :hairy:

 

[Bryan]

Vitamin C isn't going to lower total cholesterol, but instead do very beneficial things as an anti-oxidant, and anti-inflammatory.

Oh, I dunno. It _might_ help lower total cholesterol some, along with all other antioxidants. One theory I've heard is that cholesterol itself is a mild natural antioxidant, and that the body can increase its production in a feedback system when it detects greater free radical production. Supporting that hypothesis would appear to be the experience of Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw, who at the time they wrote the book Life Extension were taking HUGE doses of antioxidants of all types. Here is a fascinating passage from that book (page 367):

Our own personal experimental life extension formulas have had a dramatic effect on our cholesterol levels. Sandy's total serum cholesterol is 114 milligrams per deciliter and Durk's total serum cholesterol is 91 milligrams per deciliter. The latter figure is particularly striking since Durk has the genes for hypercholesterolemia (excessively high serum cholesterol). His grandfather, who had this condition, died of a heart attack. His father also has it and has to watch his diet and take anti-cholesterol prescription drugs (but we don't know whether they're doing him any good). At the age of 17, Durk's total serum cholesterol was 185 milligrams per deciliter and his physician told him to either watch his diet carefully or to expect a premature death from cardiovascular disease!

Our extremely low total serum-cholesterol values are not the only serum-lipid effects of the antioxidants and nutrients we take. We also have excellent HDL/LDL ratios. These unusual values were not obtained with the help of a special diet. The two of us together in a week consume: 1 to 2 dozen eggs; about a pound or two of butter; several pounds of beef, poultry, and pork; and 4 to 5 gallons of whole (not low-fat) milk. Such a diet, loaded with dairy products and meat, is enough to make a no-fat or low-fat food faddist cringe, but our ultra-low total serum cholesterol figures indicate that it is possible to eat plenty of tasty meats and dairy products if you take the right nutrients to prevent them from clogging your arteries.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

[quote="LookingGood!":da2b7]Does your current "protocol" impact your lipid profile in a positive way?

What do you mean, "impact" it? Impact it in what way?

I mean what are you taking to keep your lipid profile in normal range.[/quote:da2b7]

I don't take anything specifically to keep my lipid profile in normal range, although it's not out of the question that the antioxidants and other nutrients I take may in fact be helping to keep them lower (see my previous post just above about Durk Pearson's and Sandy Shaw's experience with their heavy antioxidant usage).

What is working synergistically? Please elaborate.

Taking only one kind of antioxidant (like only vitamin E, or only vitamin C) isn't good enough. Antioxidants work together in very complex ways. You need to take ample amounts of ALL available antioxidants to do the most good. You need a carefully designed and chosen, synergistic program to have the best effect.

Bryan

 

[wookster]

I have been taking vitamin C[ascorbic acid] as recommended by the late Linus Pauling. Since starting the vitamin C in oct, 2006 I have not even had a cold. Pauling was definitely onto something with his research, it appears.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling

Pauling's work on vitamin C in his later years generated controversy and was originally regarded by some adversaries in the field of medicine as outright quackery. He was first introduced to the concept of high-dose vitamin C by biochemist Irwin Stone in 1966 and began taking several grams every day to prevent colds. Excited by the results, he researched the clinical literature and published "Vitamin C and the Common Cold" in 1970.

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... min-c.html

One of the great misfortunes of human evolution, Pauling explained, was when our human ancestors lost their ability to manufacture vitamin C. Pauling thinks the trait was probably discarded at a time when our ancestors had a diet of vitamin-rich plants and didn't need to produce the vitamin themselves. This left today's primates (including humans) as one of the few groups of animals that must get the vitamin through the diet.

Ever since proto-humans moved out of fruit-and-vegetable-rich habitats, Pauling said, they have suffered great deficiencies of vitamin C. Pauling has forthrightly recommended that people make up for this deficiency with daily doses of vitamin C much greater than the 60 mg generally recommended.

He said our vitamin C consumption should be on par with what other animals produce by themselves, typically 10-12 grams a day. Pauling practices what he preaches, having gradually upped his daily doses of vitamin C from 3 grams in the 1960s to a hefty 18 grams today.

Pauling went on to discuss vitamin C's connection with lipoprotein-a, a substance whose levels in the blood have been linked to cardiovascular disease. Lipoprotein-a is also a major component of the plaques found in the blood vessels of atherosclerosis patients.

Pauling has published studies asserting that lipoprotein-a is a surrogate for vitamin C, serving to strengthen blood vessel walls in the absence of adequate amounts of the vitamin in the diet. In the lecture, Pauling noted that animals which, unlike humans, manufacture their vitamin C and have much higher levels of the vitamin in their bodies, have very little lipoprotein-a in their blood.

Pauling is convinced that doses of vitamin C can help prevent the onset of cardiovascular disease, inhibiting the formation of disease-promoting lesions on blood vessel walls and perhaps decreasing the production of lipoprotein-a in the blood. Vitamin C's link to healthy blood vessels, Pauling said, is further supported by studies of scurvy, the disease caused by vitamin C deficiency. Fifty percent of patients who die of scurvy, he said, do so because of ruptured blood vessels.