What Does "flat Dose Response" Mean?

[yourworld001]

I've this mentioned about Finasteride on forums, what does the term "flat dose response" mean?

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I've this mentioned about Finasteride on forums, what does the term "flat dose response" mean?

It means that there's no benefit to using larger dosages of finasteride. Once you reach 0.05-0.25 mg/day (the exact number has not been measured), you have maximum inhibition of DHT in the scalp and in the serum, likely because there is no more five-alpha reductase left to neutralize.

Drake et al: The effects of finasteride on scalp skin and serum androgen levels in men with androgenetic alopecia -
https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(99)80051-6/abstract
In this study, doses of finasteride as low as 0.2 mg per day maximally decreased both scalp skin and serum DHT levels. These data support the rationale used to conduct clinical trials in men with male pattern hair loss at doses of finasteride between 0.2 and 5 mg.

This Japanese study shows that 1mg/day is very weakly better than 0.20 mg/day, but the difference is minuscule and it's over 12 weeks.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?uid=15319158&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

The difference between 0.20 and 1.00 mg/day is not significant:

 

[whatevr]

It means that there's no benefit to using larger dosages of finasteride. Once you reach 0.05-0.25 mg/day (the exact number has not been measured), you have maximum inhibition of DHT in the scalp and in the serum, likely because there is no more five-alpha reductase left to neutralize.

Drake et al: The effects of finasteride on scalp skin and serum androgen levels in men with androgenetic alopecia -
https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(99)80051-6/abstract
In this study, doses of finasteride as low as 0.2 mg per day maximally decreased both scalp skin and serum DHT levels. These data support the rationale used to conduct clinical trials in men with male pattern hair loss at doses of finasteride between 0.2 and 5 mg.

This Japanese study shows that 1mg/day is very weakly better than 0.20 mg/day, but the difference is minuscule and it's over 12 weeks.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?uid=15319158&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

The difference between 0.20 and 1.00 mg/day is not significant:
View attachment 86955

Another point to consider with regard to the relative efficacy of a specific finasteride dose and resultant concentration in plasma and tissue is that the IC 50 for finasteride in prostate and scalp homogenates was reported to be 5.9 and 310 nM, respectively (98).
With this in mind, it was estimated that a concentration of 94 nM finasteride would inhibit prostate homogenate 5á-reductase by 85%, but would inhibit scalp homogenate 5á-reduc-tase by 25% (66). Results from clinical studies that measured DHT reduction in prostatic tissue (92) and scalp skin (28) are consistent with these estimates. By extrapolation, in order to achieve a level of inhibition in scalp that was comparable to that in the prostate, the concentration of finasteride in plasma would have to be 1 ìM (66), which would be obtained following a 50 mg dose of finasteride (100).

(A New Look at the 5á-Reductase Inhibitor Finasteride)

Stuff is plain garbage when it comes to actually reducing DHT in the scalp where it matters. Sigh. It takes 52 times as much Finasteride to inhibit the same amount of 5-AR in the scalp as it does in the prostate. And that means by the time you've noticeable lowered the DHT in your scalp, the DHT the rest of your body would be nonexistant. At the 1 mg dose it only lowers around 30% of scalp DHT, but around 70% of serum DHT. Just lol.

Finasteride is to hair loss medication what lobotomies were to treating psychiatric problems.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Another point to consider with regard to the relative efficacy of a specific finasteride dose and resultant concentration in plasma and tissue is that the IC 50 for finasteride in prostate and scalp homogenates was reported to be 5.9 and 310 nM, respectively (98).
With this in mind, it was estimated that a concentration of 94 nM finasteride would inhibit prostate homogenate 5á-reductase by 85%, but would inhibit scalp homogenate 5á-reduc-tase by 25% (66). Results from clinical studies that measured DHT reduction in prostatic tissue (92) and scalp skin (28) are consistent with these estimates. By extrapolation, in order to achieve a level of inhibition in scalp that was comparable to that in the prostate, the concentration of finasteride in plasma would have to be 1 ìM (66), which would be obtained following a 50 mg dose of finasteride (100).

(A New Look at the 5á-Reductase Inhibitor Finasteride)

Stuff is plain garbage when it comes to actually reducing DHT in the scalp where it matters. Sigh. It takes 52 times as much Finasteride to inhibit the same amount of 5-AR in the scalp as it does in the prostate. And that means by the time you've noticeable lowered the DHT in your scalp, the DHT the rest of your body would be nonexistant. At the 1 mg dose it only lowers around 30% of scalp DHT, but around 70% of serum DHT. Just lol.

Finasteride is to hair loss medication what lobotomies were to treating psychiatric problems.

The links above show that roughly ~60% of scalp DHT is inhibited regardless of how much finasteride you use if you use more than ~0.05 mg/day.

The reason that it does not go to 100% is that there are three types of 5ar.

 

[whatevr]

The links above show that roughly ~60% of scalp DHT is inhibited regardless of how much finasteride you use if you use more than ~0.05 mg/day.

The reason that it does not go to 100% is that there are three types of 5ar.

That is just one more potential reason that equol can be superior.

 

[abcdefg]

That is just one more potential reason that equol can be superior.

This is why finasteride doesnt stop male pattern baldness a lot of times, or why it doesnt work for some people. If equol can be superior it has to be awful potent. male pattern baldness takes massive changes to get results. Almost every AA gets dosed for acne, and male pattern baldness need much stronger doses.
If you took mega doses of saw palmetto, or equol or whatever else its hard to believe you wont have any sides if it does get results for male pattern baldness. Although the sides could be different you never know.

 

[sunchyme1]

This is why finasteride doesnt stop male pattern baldness a lot of times, or why it doesnt work for some people. If equol can be superior it has to be awful potent. male pattern baldness takes massive changes to get results. Almost every AA gets dosed for acne, and male pattern baldness need much stronger doses.
If you took mega doses of saw palmetto, or equol or whatever else its hard to believe you wont have any sides if it does get results for male pattern baldness. Although the sides could be different you never know.

 

[whatevr]

This is why finasteride doesnt stop male pattern baldness a lot of times, or why it doesnt work for some people. If equol can be superior it has to be awful potent. male pattern baldness takes massive changes to get results. Almost every AA gets dosed for acne, and male pattern baldness need much stronger doses.
If you took mega doses of saw palmetto, or equol or whatever else its hard to believe you wont have any sides if it does get results for male pattern baldness. Although the sides could be different you never know.

We will see. If it is potent at binding DHT, using it topically could result in the majority of Equol getting bound up to the DHT in the scalp and not traveling much around the rest of the body. It could be strong enough without having debilitating side effects. I will test it this week, either way.

 

[Dutchie]

We will see. If it is potent at binding DHT, using it topically could result in the majority of Equol getting bound up to the DHT in the scalp and not traveling much around the rest of the body. It could be strong enough without having debilitating side effects. I will test it this week, either way

How did this work out for you?? Did the Equol do anything??