what could be the next thing to try?

[tanaka]

Hey guys,

do you mind taking a moment to consider what would make sense in this situation?

I m dealing with hairloss nine years now and most of the time I was on finasteride and minoxidil which worked quite well. Besides some recession at the hairline I managed to keep what I have for 6 years. 2008 I realized that my vertex began to thin a little which was the reason for me to start dutasteride.
From my impression it did not work as well as finasteride because for the 18 months that I took it I had mild to severe loss, 300 hairs when showering in the end. Strangely my vertex area did not thin more while on dutasteride.

In 2010 I quit dutasteride because of the shedding and started the big 3. I was very relieved when after some months hairloss improved and I lost around 60 hairs in the shower, which is ok for me. Unfortunately after one year I realized that the skin at my vertex began to shine through more than before. What I thought was this. When finasteride works for me but is not strong enough anymore, I give dutasteride another try. So from january this year on I took dutasteride, Rogaine foam and nizoral. I allways used brand name Propecia and Avodart by the way.

All was fine for six weeks but then I got a massive shed again 200+ hairs which I have for 2 months now and it seems to get worse. I know that an initial shed on dutasteride is frequent, but I know also that I did not do so well on dutasteride for the 18 months I tried it last time.

At the moment, I dont know what to do. Keeping dutasteride and risking to loose more and more hair without further improvement. Or going back to finasteride and seeing my vertex getting worse.

At the moment I am considering supplementary treatments along with finasteride, minoxidil and nizoral. to improve efficiency. Would it make sense to start Revivogen to support finasteride in blocking DHT?
Another thing I think about is adding topical flutamide because the combination of a DHT blocker and an antiandrogen could be stopping hairloss.

What would you consider, Revivogen or Fluta or something different? I know this is a lot of information, but please share your thoughts about this issue. I am really stuck with this decision at the moment, and loose tons of hair everyday which is so horrible.

thanks for your support

cheers

 

[tanaka]

...please I need more opinions than mine.

Everyone who answers is dope.

 

[tanaka]

wouldnt revivogen contribute to DHT blocking and act as a combo together with finasteride?
I think it would be more efficient than finasteride alone.
What about the combination antiandrogen (fluta) and DHT-Blocker (finasteride)?

 

[Bryan]

Would it make sense to start Revivogen to support finasteride in blocking DHT?

This is a PERFECT example of why I always recommend that people use the same general medical terminology that doctors use: to avoid CONFUSION. Although you say things in the rest of your post that explain it a little better and make it more clear what you mean, I'd strongly suggest using the correct terminology from the beginning: drugs that stop 5a-reductase from converting testosterone into DHT are called 5a-reductase inhibitors. Examples of such drugs are finasteride and dutasteride.

Drugs that bind to androgen receptors inside hair follicle cells and keep androgens from doing their dirty work are called androgen receptor blockers, or simply antiandrogens.

See what I'm saying? So what exactly does it mean when you talk about "blocking DHT"?? Are you trying to say "5a-reductase inhibitor", or are you trying to say "antiandrogen" :dunno:

Anyway, to answer the question you asked earlier (no matter what the hell you meant), few people seem to know that the fatty acids in Revivogen (if it even still uses fatty acids) have the unusual property of not only acting as 5a-reductase inhibitors, they ALSO have the ability to help block androgen receptors, at least to some degree. They're not as strong in that regard as other potent antiandrogens like flutamide, but every little bit helps; furthermore, they don't have dangerous systemic absorption like flutamide does.

 

[tanaka]

Hello Bryan,

thank you for your answer. Yor are right, by saying blocking DHT I meant 5a reductase inhibition, sorry for the incorrect terminology. So you suggest that Revivogen would be an adequate addition to my regimen.
Many people here say it does not do anything recognizable, but maybe it makes more sense to use it in addition with a more potent drug like finasteride. Somebody here said that in can be used together with minoxidil. Think I will do that. Any other recommendations maybe? I started to take saw palmetto but I think more of psychological reasons because of its weakness. But who knows, maybe it helps a bit.

I considered starting RUM but since I live in Europe, it is almost impossible to obtain without custom problems. And for some mysterious reason the RUM researchers here just left the forum and evey post got deleted.

Is there really systemic absorption of topical flutamide. Genhair offers topical flutamide. When taking it you would have to worry about systemic side effects?
I wonder if it makes sense at all to use an antiandrogen because I use cyproterone acetate, 5mg a day and still have horrible hairloss. Forgot to mention that in my initial post.

 

[Jacob]

tanaka...don't bother asking Bryan for suggestions. While he may have some responses to your other questions, he's been shill'n Proxiphen and NANO for over 15 years. See this thread for starters: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=72201 So in other words..it's obvious what he'll suggest.

You could look into the Polaris Labs products or even Divine Skin if those are the kinds of topicals you're into. Otherwise there are numerous non-drug topicals out there worth adding to a regimen, imo.

 

[Bryan]

Is there really systemic absorption of topical flutamide. Genhair offers topical flutamide. When taking it you would have to worry about systemic side effects?

There DEFINITELY is potential systemic absorption of topical flatamide; that's why doctors are so scared of having people use it that way. I've heard of one company that uses some "trick" to help keep it from being absorbed systemically, but I don't know if Genhair tries to do that.

If you have access to a medical library, you can read the Chen et al study, in which flutamide was applied to rats in a standard hydro-alcoholic vehicle; there was TOTAL systemic absorption of the flutamide in that study.

 

[tanaka]

Thanks guys for the feedback, even if you dont like each other.

The DS Products are mostly based on Minoxidil. I guess I keep rogaine foam and add something that tackles hairloss from a different angle.
In another forum called alopecie, someone pointed out that Beta Sitosterol can be effective in inhibiting 5a reductase. It is the active ingredient of saw palmetto. But when taking Beta Sitosterol pure, the concentration would be much higher and thus more efficient. Thats the theory. I never read about it in this forum though.
Has anybody experience with it?

So far I switched from dutasteride to finasteride this weekend and I am excited if it will have a positive effect in the next weeks. Ill keep you posted.

 

[abcdefg]

I would keep propecia or try upping the dose and then if money allows try some kind of receptor blocker/antiandrogen to stop the increase in androgen receptors from using propecia for that many years. I personally think the amount of DHT left over when using propecia and that big increase in receptors is what causes these treatments to slowly lose effectiveness.
That big increase in receptors sounds pretty important and has a lot of unknowns but certainly helps explain a possible difference between people with no 5-ar enzyme from birth and people artificially lowering the DHT after they had a lot of it.

 

[tanaka]

So you think that the slow decrease in efficiency when using finasteride for years depends on the increase in the number of andogen receptors. Thats an interesting point. Is it a theory or has it been proven? That would definitely mean that an antiandrogen helps in that situation.
Androcur (cyproterone acetate) which I take for about 1 1/2 years should do the trick. But my hairloss still persists even if it was possibly slowed down. Is the working mechanism of flutamide comparable to the one of androcur?

I allways thought that follicles just become more and more sensitive to DHT over time and the process overrides finasteride s potential at some point.

Hairloss is weird nasty stuff

 

[Bryan]

So you think that the slow decrease in efficiency when using finasteride for years depends on the increase in the number of andogen receptors. Thats an interesting point. Is it a theory or has it been proven?

That has NEVER been proven. I don't even believe that theory. The increase in androgen receptors happens RAPIDLY, it doesn't happen sloooowly over years.

That would definitely mean that an antiandrogen helps in that situation.

The increase in androgen receptors would happen in response to antiandrogens, too; not just 5a-reductase inhibitors like finasteride and dutasteride.

Androcur (cyproterone acetate) which I take for about 1 1/2 years should do the trick. But my hairloss still persists even if it was possibly slowed down. Is the working mechanism of flutamide comparable to the one of androcur?

Yes.

I allways thought that follicles just become more and more sensitive to DHT over time and the process overrides finasteride s potential at some point.

I agree with you totally!

 

[abcdefg]

I dont know a lot about any of this, but an increase in receptors means more androgens would bind starting the reaction leading to miniaturization. So even if your sensitivity to androgens remained constant for 5 years wouldnt having more receptors mean more hair would be affected by the androgens?
Are there studies that looked at what the spike in receptors actually does or if they return to normal after you stop?

 

[israelite]

u could try cb-03-01, asc j9, neosh101, pgd2/CRTH2 inhibiator, ru, myrisstate rum, ahk copper peptides, Bimatoprost. these all the experimrntal treatments i have tried!

 

[tanaka]

So there is an increase in androgen receptors when using finasteride and antiandrogens, either rapidy or gradual which means more hairloss.

What I know now definitely is that finasteride despite being less effective as before still works better for me than dutasteride. Shedding decreased quite considerably during the last 8 days.
I hope it stays like that.

The problem with the experimental treatments is availability in europe. I would give RUM a try, even if there are not really success stories of it so far. But it is very likely that customs will confiscate it or even sue me for patent violation. At least thats what they told me.

 

[abcdefg]

I was just talking theory. The facts are your best off using propecia right now. Its the best and only thing you can use and science proves it works. All that other stuff he mentioned is just theoretical and has not been approved for hair loss its just guys experimenting I would not suggest that.