We Found The Hype Train But Nobody Is Getting On It!

thomps1523

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This is what I was trying to say in the other Tsuji thread but people were freaking out over it. Sorry to be "negative" but this is the reality. I think people just don't know how all this works.

You can read about the stages of clinical testing here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_clinical_research

To summarize, it is a three to four phase process, each of which costs tens of millions of dollars and usually takes at least a year or more.

At this point, as far as we know, Tsuji hasn't even have a single replicated human follicle. Let alone a proven method to mass produce them. So he is nowhere near even beginning Phase 1-3 testing. He's still in the purely experimental and theoretical stage still.

Japan has tight regulations on drugs and medicine, as they are an advanced nation. It's not like he's running this enterprise in Columbia where he might be able to skip all that regulatory testing.

I can't see how any commercially available form of this will be available before 2022. And that's IF he solves the hair cloning problem AND works out a method for mass production of them in the next year. Even that is a tall order to expect.

Then do you want to be one of the first guinnea pigs for lab created hair follicles? Will you feel confident knowing the processes he undertook to create those follicles (artificial multiplication and manipulation of stem cells) won't put those follicles at risk of becoming defective over time? Or developing into tumors or increasing skin cancer rates in the scalp?

Personally, I wouldn't let the technology touch my scalp until I saw at least 5 years of safety data from it.

Everyone should still be hitting topical/systemic antiandrogens and stimulants like minoxidil hard. If you think Tsuji gives you an excuse to get lazy and just let yourself go bald since he'll have a magic cure in a year or two you're nuts.

I have yet to read anyone claiming to drop all treatments, because they know Tsuji will be released. Keep in mind 2020 is their timetable, so unless you have a seat at their table I'll probably take their word over your's... they only have to do 2 stages of trials in Japan before a release, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he has grown hairs in an area just not in mass
 

IdealForehead

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I have yet to read anyone claiming to drop all treatments, because they know Tsuji will be released. Keep in mind 2020 is their timetable, so unless you have a seat at their table I'll probably take their word over your's... they only have to do 2 stages of trials in Japan before a release, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he has grown hairs in an area just not in mass

As far as I know the farthest they've gone is last year they grew a small tuft of hair in a mouse.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35946611

Also, as an example, not to single him out too much, but because he keeps posting about this, Jonny is just using topical spironolactone which is a completely unproven therapy while crossing his fingers for Tsuji.

To quote that article:

"Researchers say this success will take 5-10 years to translate into humans."
 

Jonnyyy

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Jon, you could still try RU58841. In studies it was equal or more effective to finasteride and it's completely topical with a low half life for systemic absorption so low side effect rate.

No matter what else comes out in the future, you should try to keep what hair you have as best you can. We all should.
I have some Ru in my freezer right now, kind of afraid to start using it and have some random batch be fake and lose all my gains randomly I've seen a lot of forums say that happened to them.
 

Jonnyyy

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I am too pissed off by the time it takes, but at least those companies are bringing some light on our problem. Replicel ( I trust more Shiseido) looks good in stopping the hairloss. Histogen lost me the day they released the combover pictures, but it may work. Tsuji will be basically hair transplant with unlimited donor area. For people with dupa no help and AA would be fucked up too. But what the hell did you said about our Lord and Savior saint Brotzu and his holy grail? You wanna some brotzusade, boy? We wouldn´t be the first one religion from Italy, which would go to destroy someones land, because he did not support our boss :D Now for real. I trust the lotion. Not the company producing it. And having something working for all alopecia suspects would be great.
I trust the lotion too, but what the f*** is taking them so long? Lol
As far as I know the farthest they've gone is last year they grew a small tuft of hair in a mouse.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35946611

Also, as an example, not to single him out too much, but because he keeps posting about this, Jonny is just using topical spironolactone which is a completely unproven therapy while crossing his fingers for Tsuji.

To quote that article:

"Researchers say this success will take 5-10 years to translate into humans."
f*** those researchers, they don't know what Tsuji is doing, and I'm not putting spironolactone on my head because I'm waiting for Tsuji, I didn't respond well to minoxidil nor finasteride, I'm doing whatever I can honestly, there's not many other options out there.
 

Omega2327

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Tsuji recently announced in an article that human trials will start in 2018 instead of 2019, why is nobody excited?
Is this actually hype? Or is it merely confusion about Japan's fiscal year-end, which ends March 31st... hopefully @hellouser can provide us some clarity from the conference with more specific planned milestones we can look forward to.
 

Jonnyyy

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Is this actually hype? Or is it merely confusion about Japan's fiscal year-end, which ends March 31st... hopefully @hellouser can provide us some clarity from the conference with more specific planned milestones we can look forward to.
That's what i was wondering, I saw one of Hellrousers question that stated "Do clinical trials start in March 2017 as planned?" So I think there's a lot of confusion going on here.
 

H

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Why oh why cant you just fix me when all i wants a cure to come but all the follicles are still gone...I am so frickin bald nothing to do today I guess I'll sit around speculate speculaaate!
 

sadila

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Why does everybody keeps assuming tsuji's treatment will be available in 2020 ? Have you ever seen some treatment that made it to market after 2 years from the begining of clinical research ? if yes please let me know which one i also want to believe the cure will be out in 2020
 

Jonnyyy

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Why does everybody keeps assuming tsuji's treatment will be available in 2020 ? Have you ever seen some treatment that made it to market after 2 years from the begining of clinical research ? if yes please let me know which one i also want to believe the cure will be out in 2020
Well that's what Tsuji has said, Clinical trials in 2018 or 2019 (not sure because people keep getting the years confused) and they expect commercialization by 2020.
 

ElTioLaBota

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I have some Ru in my freezer right now, kind of afraid to start using it and have some random batch be fake and lose all my gains randomly I've seen a lot of forums say that happened to them.
What do you mean?
 

ElTioLaBota

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Supposedly a lot of the sellers aren't good and some batches are real and some are fake, seen some guys say they responded well but then got a fake batch and ruined their hair.
f*** it... Any reliable source?
 

Jonnyyy

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Why oh why cant you just fix me when all i wants a cure to come but all the follicles are still gone...I am so frickin bald nothing to do today I guess I'll sit around speculate speculaaate!
In a year or two you'll find out if this is the real deal, but for now start saving just in case.
 

MedicinallyCompetent

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This is what I was trying to say in the other Tsuji thread but people were freaking out over it. Sorry to be "negative" but this is the reality. I think people just don't know how all this works.

You can read about the stages of clinical testing here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phases_of_clinical_research

To summarize, it is a three to four phase process, each of which costs tens of millions of dollars and usually takes at least a year or more.

At this point, as far as we know, Tsuji hasn't even have a single replicated human follicle. Let alone a proven method to mass produce them. So he is nowhere near even beginning Phase 1-3 testing. He's still in the purely experimental and theoretical stage still.

Japan has tight regulations on drugs and medicine, as they are an advanced nation. It's not like he's running this enterprise in Columbia where he might be able to skip all that regulatory testing.

I can't see how any commercially available form of this will be available before 2022. And that's IF he solves the hair cloning problem AND works out a method for mass production of them in the next year. Even that is a tall order to expect.

Then do you want to be one of the first guinnea pigs for lab created hair follicles? Will you feel confident knowing the processes he undertook to create those follicles (artificial multiplication and manipulation of stem cells) won't put those follicles at risk of becoming defective over time? Or developing into tumors or increasing skin cancer rates in the scalp?

Personally, I wouldn't let the technology touch my scalp until I saw at least 5 years of safety data from it.

Everyone should still be hitting topical/systemic antiandrogens and stimulants like minoxidil hard. If you think Tsuji gives you an excuse to get lazy and just let yourself go bald since he'll have a magic cure in a year or two you're nuts.

Hair follicle & sebaceous gland cancer is extremely rare. Even if Tsuji method increased cancer rates it would require insane amount of evolution rates for this to be commonplace. I also can't see how hair cloning would cause SCC or melanoma. If you have any science showing how it would be theoretically possible I'd love to see it.
 

IdealForehead

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Hair follicle & sebaceous gland cancer is extremely rare. Even if Tsuji method increased cancer rates it would require insane amount of evolution rates for this to be commonplace. I also can't see how hair cloning would cause SCC or melanoma. If you have any science showing how it would be theoretically possible I'd love to see it.

Stem cells have a large part to play in cancer as discussed here:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150812151249.htm

Manipulating and multiplying them artificially could theoretically be dangerous, as discussed here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3070641/

In vitro expansion and culture of stem cells can change the characteristics of the stem cell due to intracellular and extracellular influences. Every cell division has a small chance of introducing deleterious mutations and mechanisms to correct these alterations may not function as adequate (e.g. cell cycle arrest, DNA repair), or at all (e.g. immune recognition) occur during in vitro culture. Cell culture induced copy number changes and loss of heterozygosity have been reported for hESC lines [54]. In principle, such changes may cause transformation of a cell into a tumourigenic phenotype and may contribute to increased tumour formation. The clinical relevance (with regard to tumourigenic potential) of these alterations (e.g. chromosomal aberrations) still remains a matter of debate [40]. Some reports indicated that the tumourigenicity of stem cells has been predicted to increase proportionally with the length of in vitro culturing [43]. In vitro ESC lines have been reported to show a certain degree of deregulation of the so-called imprinted genes, also after differentiation [20].

Spontaneous malignant transformation of mouse MSC following long term in vitro culture has been described [55-57]. Also spontaneous transformation of mice neural precursor/stem cells has been reported [58]. These transformed cells were detected already after ~10 passages of cell culture, and produced tumours in vivo upon administration into rodent brains.
 
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