Unproven Treatments

[fro]

I don't think that anybody really took the opportunity to mention the importance of these unproven treatments for those people who were the first generation of propecia and minoxidil combo users. For many, propecia seems to poop out after a few years as does the effectiveness of minoxidil 5%. There are treatments that aren't proven to work as of yet, but for those of us who need a new additional treatment, this site probably won't be for them because the only treatments that are proven to work through the completion of many studies(and those that are discussed here) are propecia and minoxidil and nizoral, which may not work for them anymore. Not revivogen or azaleic acid, all of which are in the proven section of the forum. In vitro hair growth shouldn't count as a legitimate reason to deem something proven in the realm of hair loss treatments.
Now, the unproven treatments that are beginning to show promise for those of us who have already used Propecia, minoxidil, and nizoral are RU, Oz Brew(what leads to effectiveness, DMSO?, minoxidil?, Arginine?, MSM?, combo of all?...who knows), Innovate, Xandrox 15%, and anti-inflammatory compounds in combination with a vehicle for penetration. These products are being used at one's own risk. Some of those who have used minoxidil and Propecia already and have met with short term success(like myself) or failure, may look into these unproven, risky, but promising male pattern baldness treatments as well as use them. HairLossTalk.com makes many solid points, indicating that the success of a single unproven product cannot be validated if 11 other treatments are being used simultaneously in combo, and that this site has alreday been defined as one which only recommends proven treatments, and that its members should respect this. Again it should be stated that this forum may not be for all male pattern baldness sufferers.

 

[HairlossTalk]

For many, propecia seems to poop out after a few years as does the effectiveness of minoxidil 5%.

Please provide your statistical data on this. The statistical data completely contradicts this statement. The studies have been done. Propecia trials extended to 7 years and were still showing results. While you're at it, define "many". Its the things you guys say that are so full of innacuracies, that I take issue with. How do you know it pooped out for "many" people. How much is many? If 100,000 men are seeing success on Propecia and 15 of them post "Propecia pooped out on me!" while the other 100,000 don't post at all... would you still say "many" ? Do you see my point? You can't make these claims.

You would need double blinded controlled studies where people were actually tracked for their adherance to the regimen, dosage, consistency, and not adding or taking away from their regimen at all. You would also need to track a huge number of people and take a % of those. How do you know the "many" you heard from aren't part of the already published 17% that don't see results with Propecia? Yet you say "Many" and this misleads people. It confuses people. In that case they're just part of the 17%. 17% out of 100% wouldnt qualify as "many". See the point? Unless you have some way to accurately measure your comments, you should not make them. That is what I take issue with with all of you guys.

There are treatments that aren't proven to work as of yet, but for those of us who need a new additional treatment, this site probably won't be for them

This statement too, is incorrect. Why do you say that? Have you read this site thoroughly? I know of several unproven products that we promote. Just becuase we don't jump bandwagons does not mean we don't promote alternatives to the proven treatments. They are all over our site. Please review the Product Reviews section.

Not revivogen or azaleic acid, all of which are in the proven section of the forum.

Once again, incorrect. There is no "proven" section of the forum. There is a men's hair loss treatments section, which consists of clinically proven products and unproven products we feel comfortable promoting. The Experimental treatments forum is for those bandwagon fads so the proponents of such products can post to their hearts content with a needed footer note on all of their posts that users should follow info there at their own risk.

The treatments that are beginning to show promise - RU, Oz Brew(what leads to effectiveness, DMSO?, minoxidil?, Arginine?, MSM?, combo of all?...who knows), Innovate, Xandrox 15%, and anti-inflammatory compounds in combination with a vehicle for penetration.

In a world of solid data, I just find it incredibly difficult for anyone to make the claim that something is working, especially when 100% of the people using such things are also on Propecia and Minoxidil. It is just plain impossible for anyone to make such a claim. If you want to get 10 guys, and have someone watch them like a hawk, and document their every dosage, and take detailed digital photographs, and do this for 1 year straight, then I will listen. I have absolutely NO qualms about promoting something new. My qualms are about the means by which ALL of you guys are using to label something "effective". The "means" are faulty, full of loopholes and exceptions, full of potential for error, and full of inaccuracies. This is what i take issue with.

 

[fro]

I should have clarified earlier what I meant by "many" when mentioning the people who experience the decrease in effectiveness over time with Propecia and minoxidil. I am referring to the many who visit this forum that have been using these products for a few years, and find that they are no longer quite as effective. Its more than a few people, so I decided to refer to this group as "many." You do, however, make many solid points including the one in which you mention that this group of male pattern baldness sufferers may be within the 17% of those who experience this phenomenon.

You mention that there is no proven section of the forum, only a hair loss treatment section of the forum. Why then is there an unproven section within this forum? And why aren't revivogen and crinagen in this unproven section?

The evidence that the experimental products which I mentioned in my previous post have as to their effectiveness is purely anectodal. But there is a pattern emerging within the posts that describe user's experiences with these products which represent the possibility for their effectiveness. As you stated, pictures backing up a products effectiveness are most definitely lacking.

 

[HairlossTalk]

You mention that there is no proven section of the forum, only a hair loss treatment section of the forum. Why then is there an unproven section within this forum? And why aren't revivogen and crinagen in this unproven section?

I already answered this. Please see the previous post. The experimental section is for the fads, trends, and hogwash. The treatments section is for those products which we feel have merit. "Unproven" qualifies for the hogwash treatments too, which is why its tied in with the phrase Experimental.

But there is a pattern emerging within the posts that describe user's experiences with these products which represent the possibility for their effectiveness. As you stated, pictures backing up a products effectiveness are most definitely lacking.

Don't know how long you've been around these websites, but everyone who has been here longer than 1 year already knows that these "anecdotal" user success reports become nonexistent and almost always "retracted" for nearly every single fad that comes along. I diferentiate fads and trends and bandwagons from treatments with ingredients that have solid scientific backing. This is why I place little or no trust in anonymous unverifiable reports on these fads anymore.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Odelay]

At the moment there are unproven methods being mentioned in this forum. Vitamins of any kind will never be proven to regrow hair, but many people speak of them constantly referring to the results they get. While I think the hoaxes should be banned I think everyone should be allowed to bring up any new products that might help someone. Because if you are only allowing products that are FDA approved to work then this entire forum would consist of Minoxdil and Propecia talk, but it is obvious that it does not.

 

[Axon]

HairLossTalk.com does not dislike the discussion of unproven treatments, (Some are obviously insane - Beer and Olive Oil) he dislikes the wild, unsubstantiated claims that arise from them.

 

[HairlossTalk]

Our site promotes several non-fda approved treatments as well, in the main portion of the site. My concern is that people who know nothing about hair loss will venture upon an inordinantly high number of discussions on any number of snake oils and not know which ones actually are proven to help.

Believe it or not, it is those people, who never post, that make up the majority of the lurkers here. The rest of you know everything already. Thats why we've tried to create an unproven section so you can discuss such things to your hearts content, where there is a disclaimer at the bottom of each post advising newbies.

My concern is mostly for them.

And yes, it is usually the guys who major on unproven treatments that make the most unscientific grandiose claims about them as well. These claims and comments being made are very dangerous to newbies and reflect a general lack of understanding of the science of hair by those who say them. I have, in the four years ive run this site, done my best not to draw a correlation between unproven product proponents and their intelligence level, or rather, level of education on hair loss, but as you can see above, I find myself constantly having to correct basic understanding on the most basic things, and ... it becomes tempting to stereotype.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Odelay]

I would have to say the hard part comes into play when people start saying things like "well it helped the other things I am taking work better, so other people should try it out." That especially goes for vitamins that some people seem hell bent on adding to their regimen without solid proof being put forth that they will help other treatments work better. It seems like everyone, including myself, have added a vitamin to their regimen that promotes healthy skin or tissue renewal in hopes that it will better help proven treatments work. The point to this is that it would be impossible to say that one vitamin is better than another and to disregard some vitamins as worthless in aiding the proven treatments.

Concerning the other products that come out the way I see things is that if they are coming from a company that can manufacture their own products and ship them out to people, then they should have the means to get it FDA approved to fight hair loss. Otherwise their product must just consist of other proven products and a few other things added in to make their product unique. That or their product works no better than what is on the market now and they know if it is sent to the FDA the results will show that.

 

[fro]

HairLossTalk.com, I understand that you've been around a lot longer than I have been in terms of the realm of hair loss education. And that's exactly why I'm here, to be educated. I respect this site greatly as well as your efforts to protect the newbies from the "fads." They should understand that upon initiating treatment, they should use a first line treatment regimine including propecia, minoxidil, and nizoral. I am not denying that if they were to try one of the unproven treatments that they could be playing with fire. But desperation can often times lead to an increase in irrationality. You seem strong in character, but perhaps if you weren't one of the many who experienced regrowth and maintenance with propecia and minoxidil, you would begin leaning toward some of these unproven treatments?

 

[Guest]

Unproven does not by definition mean worthelss, simply unproven, using a certain standard.

Using fda approval, we got two guns.

Using some decent research, we can add nizoral, spironolactone, folligen, perhaps Reviv and Crinagen.

After that, I believe it tails off pretty sharply into la la land.

But, today's dream maybe tomorrow's reality.

As long as we are clear we are experimenting on ourselves!

 

[HairlossTalk]

But desperation can often times lead to an increase in irrationality.

You just summarized what every single doctor and scientific researcher in the world thinks of the people who frequent this and the other hair loss websites. These people who actually live and breathe science and evidence and data cannot even begin to fathom the mentality of a lot of people who start dumping things on their heads - many times dangerous substances - see the Oz brew for example .... or waste hundreds of dollars on things ....

... They have emailed me time and time again labeled the users of these sites just as you did. Desperate and irrational.

How I interact with you guys is actually 500 times more gentle than these great minds would, if they had some sort of voice on my website. I just read the emails that are sent to me. Some of the biggest names in hair research that are trying their damndest to find something that works... REALLY WORKS .... are so upset by what they see people on these forums (and moreso, other forums) doing.

Many of the less kind ones quite simply think the general public are gullible, stupid, and completely uneducated. The more kindhearted ones just feel bad and shake their heads in disbelief. Others are offended and appalled at some of the things they see users tell eachother.

I attended a meeting of several of these researchers a year ago and believe it or not, these discussion forums came up, by several public speakers in front of HUNDREDS of transplant surgeons and researchers. Believe it or not, they are watching, and they're beyond freaked out.

You're right that desperation and irrationality can kick in. And I dont blame you guys for having it. I blame the research teams and ... well ... the hair follicle for being so damn difficult to figure out, leaving us with so few real options. I dont enjoy saying "Propecia Rogaine Propecia Rogaine" over and over and over and over all day. Im sick of hearing myself say it.

But Odelay hit it righ ton the head. Look at his last post. There ARE other options out there but you need to be an educated consumer and really analyze the ingredients. Go to pubmed and search. Ask people like Bryan shelton if certain ingredients have ANY evidence backing them. If I could somehow educate all my users to just do this, I would give my blessing on ANYTHING unproven they wanted to use. I really truly would.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Guest]

HairLossTalk.com practices what he preaches.

See below


Goal: Maintenance
Propecia for 3 Yrs with great results
Now: Topical spironolactone 5% Lotion
Revivogen 2x a day
Nizoral 3x a week

 

[youngguy_uk]

Our site promotes several non-fda approved treatments as well, in the main portion of the site. My concern is that people who know nothing about hair loss will venture upon an inordinantly high number of discussions on any number of snake oils and not know which ones actually are proven to help.

Believe it or not, it is those people, who never post, that make up the majority of the lurkers here. The rest of you know everything already. Thats why we've tried to create an unproven section so you can discuss such things to your hearts content, where there is a disclaimer at the bottom of each post advising newbies.

My concern is mostly for them.

And yes, it is usually the guys who major on unproven treatments that make the most unscientific grandiose claims about them as well. These claims and comments being made are very dangerous to newbies and reflect a general lack of understanding of the science of hair by those who say them. I have, in the four years ive run this site, done my best not to draw a correlation between unproven product proponents and their intelligence level, or rather, level of education on hair loss, but as you can see above, I find myself constantly having to correct basic understanding on the most basic things, and ... it becomes tempting to stereotype.

HairLossTalk.com

totally agree. when i 1st looked into hairloss treatments i browsed on a site, saw claims about how effective this certain lotion was and then ended up using it to no effect regarding my hairloss. if only i knew about propecia before then.