Topical Finasteride + RU58841

[adriatic85]

Hi everyone!


I just got some FUE for my frontal area (1250 grafts, hairline) 5 weeks ago, and immediately after my doctor suggested, I started taking finasteride. I gave it a try (1.25mg as1/4 of proscar, M-W-F) during 20 days, but I found I completely lost my morning erections so I stopped altogether, and after more than a week I'm completely back to normal in that regard.


Nonetheless, I am willing to try the topical finasteride to see if I can benefit from it while minimizing the side effects (if that's a possibility in my case, I still don't know) as I want to control the DHT conversion locally, for that purpose I ordered the NR-11 from polaris labs (Minoxidil Sulfate/Finasteride/Alfatradiol- 12%/0.1%/0.05%). Question: Anyone knows the main differences between Monoxidil and Minoxidil Sulfate?.


Additionally, I decided to also add RU58841 to the equation, so I ordered a 50ml (5% concentration, KB solution) from Anagen, as I also want to tackle the problem from the anti-androgen angle.


So in summary, I want to tackle the problem in a topical way aiming at 2 fronts mainly, preventing some T to DHT conversion in the follicles (hopefully not going full systemic) with the topical finasteride solution, and also preventing some effects of the inevitable DHT that still will be present with the RU. I'll give it a try for at least 6 months (unless some undesirable side effects happen, or something... - hopefully not) as in my case I no longer have empty areas (after the hair transplant) but I do see clearly thinning on my crown and top areas (specially now that my hair is growing after the buzzcut), so even if it doesn't completely stop the hair loss in my case, any significant reduction on the hairloss rate will have clear benefits down the line (compared with doing nothing).


Any experience, opinion or warning regarding what I've just explained will be greatly appreciated guys, I haven't decided the regimen yet regarding amounts and frequencies,I plan to use the two products separately, so I hope to get a better idea from your thoughts on it!


Thanks!


PS. I am 31 years old, and have been using minoxidil foam for about 2 years twice a day, and Nizoral 3x per week.

 

[$illy $ymphony]

- minoxidil sulphate does not work
- 0.1% top. finasteride will have same systemic effect as 1 mg taken in
- just use 5% RU and liquid 5% minoxidil

 

[adriatic85]

- minoxidil sulphate does not work
- 0.1% top. finasteride will have same systemic effect as 1 mg taken in
- just use 5% RU and liquid 5% minoxidil

-The preparation from Polaris, the NR-11, comes with the minoxidil sulphate, thats why I was curious. Also looking at chemical companies that supply for R&D, that compound is quite expensive (for example 1mg is around 60 USD), so I wonder why they chose to include it instead of minoxidil itself. They have another preparation of minoxidil and finasteride, but is more like a lotion and they suggest it's for people with large empty areas or really short hair (http://www.polarisresearchlabs.com/nr-10.php) due to the application, anyway, that's why I bought the NR-11. I also ordered some Morr-F some days before (Minoxidil/Finasteride- 3%/0.1%), so that one has minoxidil itself (although just 3%).

-Well, my idea is that indeed it is inevitable to avoid some systemic effect, but the extend might depend on the vehicle (and of course the amount used). The ideal case would be prevent the synthesis of DHT from testosterone only in the hair follicles, instead of preventing it elsewhere as well (prostate, testes and adrenal glands). So if you take it orally then naturally it will be all over you body, and will inhibit the conversion in all the aforementioned sites. Of course even if you could achieve this highly specific targeting of just the hair follicles, that wouldn't mean that you won't get some finasteride all over your system because indeed they are still connected to the rest of your body (veins, arteries, lymph vessels, etc). But I do think if you administer it via the scalp and use an appropriate vehicle (which is the main difference between different products from what I've seen), you can get somewhat close to the ideal case and also you wouldn't need to use all the amount of finasteride you might need to achieve the same effect (for example x% drop in DHT at the follicles, would require y mg of finasteride orally, whereas the same reduction could be seen from z mg topically on the scalp, where z<y - hopefully z<<y), therefore having to use less and having less finasteride all over your body. Again, I might be completely wrong, but so far that's the idea I have of it.

-That's a regime that sounds very good to me, and I think that's what I will try first. I decided to order some of these things and while they arrive also develop a more clear idea of what I am going to do, so I really appreciate your input!

Cheers!

- - - Updated - - -

That's true. Currently I take liquid finasteride. .1 ml is equivalent to Propecia = 1mg Finasteride. Actually, liquid is a little better
in stopping DHT in the scalp. It's eighty percent reduction in DHT, versus 70 - 75% oral Finasteride. My temple hair is actually starting
to grow back, slowly though.

But liquid Finasteride has the same side effects. You won't avoid them with topical Finasteride, it's true.

Did you experience any other differences with the topical version in contrast with the oral pill? For example side effects (if you happen to had some).

Thanks for the advice!

 

[RD03]

That's true. Currently I take liquid finasteride. .1 ml is equivalent to Propecia = 1mg Finasteride. Actually, liquid is a little better
in stopping DHT in the scalp. It's eighty percent reduction in DHT, versus 70 - 75% oral Finasteride. My temple hair is actually starting
to grow back, slowly though.

But liquid Finasteride has the same side effects. You won't avoid them with topical Finasteride, it's true.

Where do you get that information?

5mg of finasteride inhibits approximately 70% of serum DHT, but that is irrelevant. You want to look at how much type II 5AR it reduces, which is around 90% and dutasteride has around 98-99% inhibition.

Scalp DHT and serum DHT has little relevance. But hey, it's a misunderstanding most forum members have. I suggest you read up on some of Bryans former posts they're really educating

 

[deniak]

Scalp DHT and serum DHT has little relevance. But hey, it's a misunderstanding most forum members have. I suggest you read up on some of Bryans former posts they're really educating

Can you say something more about this?

 

[br1]

Where do you get that information?

5mg of finasteride inhibits approximately 70% of serum DHT, but that is irrelevant. You want to look at how much type II 5AR it reduces, which is around 90% and dutasteride has around 98-99% inhibition.

Scalp DHT and serum DHT has little relevance. But hey, it's a misunderstanding most forum members have. I suggest you read up on some of Bryans former posts they're really educating

So you`re saying it's the type II 5AR that causes miniaturization and not the DHT?

 

[Dench57]

Can you say something more about this?

I'm not sure if there's been any definitive proof about the role of serum or scalp DHT in the miniaturisation of the follicle as opposed to follicular 5AR2. I had always assumed that serum DHT is going to be pumped around the body and hit the AR in your follicles at some point. If somebody has a study I'd be interested to read it. The late Bryan made a pretty good post about this though.

There are a few separate lines of evidence which, taken together, strongly suggest that it's follicular DHT which is the much more important factor, and that DHT itself doesn't have much of a role as an endocrine hormone in the body:

1) I read in a medical journal article (I wished I had saved it, so I could cite it) that most molecules of DHT formed within cells go on to bind to androgen receptors within that same cell. If that's true, then the implications are obvious.

2) Serum DHT is eliminated fairly rapidly, so it obviously can't hang around long enough to have much of an endocrine effect.

3) The animal experiments (and at least one small human experiment) with topical 5a-reductase inhibitors (for example, the hamster study with the topical fatty acids) show an effect only where they're actually applied, strongly implying once again that serum DHT isn't doing anything to keep those hamster flank organs going. Reducing only the local DHT was sufficient to sharply inhibit their growth. So if that's the case with sebaceous glands which are exquisitely sensitive to androgenic stimulation, is it really so difficult to believe that it's also the case with hair follicles?

4) Conversely, sharply reducing serum DHT with finasteride had no effect on sebum production in humans in Imperato-McGinley's study which I posted about recently, again showing that serum DHT doesn't seem to have any detectable effect on sebaceous glands. Why would one expect it to have much effect on hair follicles?

5) Dr. Proctor has said numerous times on alt.baldspot that endocrinologists have traditionally been taught that DHT only has an effect where it's actually produced (which is to say, it again doesn't have much of a role as an endocrine hormone).

Bryan

From http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...ype-2-produced-inside-the-hair-follicle/page2

 

[adriatic85]

I'm not sure if there's been any definitive proof about the role of serum or scalp DHT in the miniaturisation of the follicle as opposed to follicular 5AR2. I had always assumed that serum DHT is going to be pumped around the body and hit the AR in your follicles at some point. If somebody has a study I'd be interested to read it. The late Bryan made a pretty good post about this though.



From http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...ype-2-produced-inside-the-hair-follicle/page2

Great, this is very informing to me! Thanks for the information and also for the reference to Bryan's post!

 

[adriatic85]

As an update (if anyone is interested):

I got last week some RU at 5% in KB solution from Anagenic, so I plan to use premixed solutions, at least during the first months and if I decide to keep using it, I will just order the powder and will make them myself.

I have been using the NR-11 from polaris labs (Minoxidil Sulfate/Finasteride/Alfatradiol- 12%/0.1%/0.05%) for over a week at night, just 0.5mL (I use insulin syringes for that, obviously without the needle), so that equals roughly to 0.5mg of Finasteride per application topically on my scalp, and I am seeing how it goes as a first try. During the mornings I use just minoxidil 5% foam (rogaine) as I've been doing it for two years already

Yesterday night I used for the first time the RU in KB at 5%, I applied 0.5mL... my idea at first was to alternate between the NR-11 and the RU every night, but I've been feeling some soreness on my nipples (never had that before in my life), so I think the wisest think is to try only one continuously first, so if I feel anything weird I can point out the cause properly.

Now I have to decide which one to try first... as I am quite concerned with the crown and the area that it's thinning right after my hairline.

 

[iamjericho]

Where do you order your Topical Finasteride from? How long have you been using it and what has been your experience with it in terms of efficacy? Also what is the vehicle of your topical finasteride? Is it in a liposomal solution?

I currently use topical finasteride (0.1%) solution along with minoxidil 5%. Mine is a lipid based solution with nano particles. However I ve heard that the one in liposomal solution works better as it has better penetration into the scalp.

Thanks in advance !

That's true. Currently I take liquid finasteride. .1 ml is equivalent to Propecia = 1mg Finasteride. Actually, liquid is a little better
in stopping DHT in the scalp. It's eighty percent reduction in DHT, versus 70 - 75% oral Finasteride. My temple hair is actually starting
to grow back, slowly though.

But liquid Finasteride has the same side effects. You won't avoid them with topical Finasteride, it's true.

 

[lickawrist]

How are both? Would topical finasteride be okay for maintaining? Just started minoxidil and I need something for maintenance. I am hesitant to take the pill due to the possible systemic side effects.

 

[GROWTH]

What aws your experinces on this can you update ,