There's A Big, Enviromental Factor In Baldness, And It's Still Undiscovered.

[Rudiger]

And?

How is this helping anyone?

How has this helped anyone since hair loss forums exist?!

Not only is this thread pointless, but it sneakily puts the blame on the hair loss sufferers themselves.

But by all means, if you want to pursue this route, Immortal Hair is just waiting for you.

Hundreds of threads about the perfect diet, supplements and lifestyle that will delay your genetic hair loss.

I can't believe this is still discussed in 2016.

But yeah, it must be all this pollution, the additives they put in our food that make us go bald.

LOL!

Now you are becoming like a child crying and stamping his feet. You have a serious complex with being wrong, this is why you do petty things such as Disliking a post without replying.

I am not saying 1 study is empirically correct and law, but I am at least open minded to the idea that it is correct. In the first part of your post you responded by saying "And how is this helping?" for me this is an admission that you know the study is possibly correct, and just because you don't want it to be, you still end up LOL'ing and finding it ridiculous, exaggerating about pollution and additives being 100% the reason behind baldness despite the fact that nobody has made this claim. It is your strawman which you continue to cling to in this thread, again- I or nobody else said that genetics is not a factor in baldness. I've made that clear many times.

Also, nobody has urged others to go and read threads about nutrients and lifestyle to save their hair, I actually made it clear that severely changing your lifestyle to save hair would be such a gradual process that you wouldn't even know if it's successful, but you don't acknowledge this and instead vaguely say we're all promoting vitamins and snake oil, because the core of your argument (lifestyle definitely being 100% a ridiculous idea) is unfounded so you get louder, lash out, and get increasingly more extreme and ridiculous, but it's very easy to see through this as a defence mechanism.

Nobody is saying that your hair loss was your fault, as I've said before your entire agenda and arguments always centre around 1 thing- you. In fact you presume everyone else is like that including myself, that it's impossible to argue something without having a personal agenda behind it, you are so self-consumed that you can't imagine anyone not being like this, so you assume everyone else is. In this case you are taking it personally that it was your fault, to the point you are denying any possibilities that don't suit you, and it's blatant.

 

[barfacan]

Saying male pattern baldness is somebodies fault would be akin to telling somebody else with awful 'heart genetics' that the heart attack they suffered at 39 is entirely their fault. The difference being is that we have much more information about heart disease and it's causative factors which allows the at risk population to make informed lifestyle choices, choices which entail a LIFETIME of commitment to yield positive results. The same does not hold true for male pattern baldness, we don't have enough information to make informed choices because we dont have any f*****g PROVEN DATA besides the fact that castration is required to stop the disease. It's not taken seriously enough.


It's up to the COMMUNITY to change that. Once the masses are heard (instead of running into the basement and crying about how nobody loves them and how they lost all opportunities in life) on a consistent basis, only then will the capitalists realize the massive profit opportunity and will finally start funding researchers for a cure (this is starting to happen now in the last 10 years). If your life is already a shitty hell, then how much worse will it get to scream at the world asking for a cure? The only possible outcome is that you increase the chances of a cure coming out, if you're not a pragmatist then my words probably won't appeal to you anyway. I believe in the market, and the prospect of money motivates very powerful forces...

I have only one question.

From where the f*** did you get that "healthy" lifestyle should stop Androgenetic Alopecia but not accelerate it?

Balding is a NATURAL process and EVEN if lifestyle matters it can impact Androgenetic Alopecia in both ways either acceleration or slowdown.

Heart disease and cancer are also 'natural' processes' but there's nothing graceful about them. I would argue male pattern baldness (at ANY age) is a signal of ill health. Your f*****g follicles are slowly DECAYING, meaning your body can no longer keep them alive and it's so viscerally unappealing that even babies are repulsed at the sight of it. At the core this is why we hate it, it's really like watching a slow death.

Why would a 'healthy' (whatever that is) lifestyle negatively impact a condition where inflammation is a major factor. That would certainly go against the mechanism of pretty much every other known disease. I still believe that when we do get to the root cause of male pattern baldness, we'll figure out that there ARE lifestyle factors that impact its progress in a very major way, we simply lack the knowledge because there is minimal research being invested into it. Sometimes the guys with really 'outlier' level bad genetics will be F*cked no matter what they do, that's just life, not all the baby turtles make it to the ocean...Don't let their pain cloud your judgement. The other 95% can possibly still be saved.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I have only one question.

From where the f*** did you get that "healthy" lifestyle should stop Androgenetic Alopecia but not accelerate it?

Balding is a NATURAL process and EVEN if lifestyle matters it can impact Androgenetic Alopecia in both ways either acceleration or slowdown.

I've already pointed this out further upthread.

Just because it correlates with lifestyle doesn't that mean that healthier lifestyle means a healthier head of hair.

 

[Rudiger]

Saying male pattern baldness is somebodies fault would be akin to telling somebody else with awful 'heart genetics' that the heart attack they suffered at 39 is entirely their fault.

Completely, I find it ridiculous we're even having to address whether it's anybodies fault, as nobody suggested this except one guy who took it as a personal attack. Ironically it was saying "Stop saying it's all my fault!!!" which made the point "Hmm... is it their fault?" relevant.

You also address how there isn't a lot of research being done, well denying any possibility that lifestyle plays a factor makes damn sure that there won't be research done in future, and we won't know if there's anything we can do to slow down male pattern baldness. I keep saying lifestyle changes would be so gradual in slowing down male pattern baldness that you won't be able to notice, well for all I know I could be wrong, maybe a healthy lifestyle in some people can promote hair growth quickly- the point is we simply don't know because people either don't care or deny it as a possibility.

This is how research on lifestyle impacting baldness helps, in case you're still wondering Fred.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I would like to live in a world where we have so much about information about male pattern baldness, and so many treatments, that to be bald is very much a person's fault.

Please -- bring on more research like that twin study.

 

[Rudiger]

Exactly.

Imagine a guy who's had 2 strokes and a range of health problems, being told it's fine to continue to go through as much burgers, beer and cigarettes as possible, because society didn't want to make him feel like it's "his fault".

That's essentially what we'd be doing by shying away from studies because it may hurt our little feelings.

 

[Balding Virgin]

Lifestyle can affect the rate at which male pattern baldness progresses, but it is ultimately caused by genetics. There's no way you're going to stop it with diet alone. Anything short of gene therapy is not a cure. Sure, with medication you may be able to temporarily halt its progression, but what about your children? They would likely carry the male pattern baldness gene.

Anything short of gene therapy will not end the suffering.

 

[Rudiger]

There's no way you're going to stop it with diet alone.

OK maybe you should tell someone who actually claimed this.

Sorry but it's getting frustrating at this point, I just literally wrote about the possibilities of "slowing down" male pattern baldness (which you just agreed on in the first sentence), I also wrote about how it's common knowledge that genetics is the main factor, and now you're quoting me and telling me about how it won't stop male pattern baldness (never claimed this) and how genetics causes it (which is exactly what I just said).

I mean thanks for the knowledge.

 

[Jimbo5]

No.

And what the hell David?

I thought you were a man of science?!

Ah well, I guess it's because you're not bald yet.

Once you reach NW5, you'll stop putting faith in those absurd claims.

My grandfather started balding at 17. Was bald at 23.

My father started balding at 17. Was bald at 23.

I started balding at 17. Was bald at 23.

And we all had completely different lifestyles and diets.

Male pattern baldness is 100% genetic.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

F*ck that's aggressive.

Did your old man ever have any second thoughts about passing the genetic nightmare on to another generation?

 

[Balding Virgin]

OK maybe you should tell someone who actually claimed this.

Sorry but it's getting frustrating at this point, I just literally wrote about the possibilities of "slowing down" male pattern baldness (which you just agreed on in the first sentence), I also wrote about how it's common knowledge that genetics is the main factor, and now you're quoting me and telling me about how it won't stop male pattern baldness (never claimed this) and how genetics causes it (which is exactly what I just said).

I mean thanks for the knowledge.

I didn't mean to quote you.

 

[Rudiger]

Humblest apologies! I felt like I've been re-clarifying my and others positions on what exactly we're talking about, because of strawmanning "OH fruit and veg will make you grow an afro then?!?!" arguments.

So I thought, now a new person is drawing me in to exactly the same thing and I got ratty, but that's fine.

 

[kveezy33]

That's an interesting identical twin article. What it said, (correct me if I'm wrong), is this:

1. Four alchoholic beverages a day help you keep your hair.

2. Smoking cigerettes is bad for your hair.

Is alchohol a DHT inhibitor? Many homeless men, who have drug/drinking problems, still have all their hair.

Also, many rock stars lost their hair later in life (as in fifties/sixties), after going on "the wagon" (alchohol/drug free).

What are your thoughts on this?

Hairloss is far more complicated than just DHT. Moderate alcohol consumption is linked to increased insulin sensitivity, reduced blood sugar, and increase in SHBG (Hormone important for hormonal balance).

 

[kveezy33]

And?

How is this helping anyone?

How has this helped anyone since hair loss forums exist?!

Not only is this thread pointless, but it sneakily puts the blame on the hair loss sufferers themselves.

But by all means, if you want to pursue this route, Immortal Hair is just waiting for you.

Hundreds of threads about the perfect diet, supplements and lifestyle that will delay your genetic hair loss.

I can't believe this is still discussed in 2016.

But yeah, it must be all this pollution, the additives they put in our food that make us go bald.

LOL!

You accept that Androgenetic Alopecia is a hormonal problem, yet reject the idea that diet has a powerful impact on hormonal balance, despite all evidence. It's more than just pollution or additives to food: excessive overeating and overly processed foods are linked to insulin resistance, heart disease, and increased cancer risk, which coincidentally are all linked to Androgenetic Alopecia. Even the simple act of eating 3 times a day increases your risk of cancer. Cancer, after all, is a disease of growth.

I can already see the response coming: "Oh I know a bunch of overweight people who eat junk, smoke cigarettes, yet have the hairline of a teenager!" What you're missing is that these all affect risk factors. It's the same obfuscation logic used by cigarette companies who claimed their products are safe because there are plenty of people who live past 100 while smoking 1-2 packs a day.

 

[Rudiger]

Don't forget to re-assure him it's not his fault, otherwise you're hurting the kids feelings.

But that was very concisely and brilliantly summed up by this sentence:

You accept that Androgenetic Alopecia is a hormonal problem, yet reject the idea that diet has a powerful impact on hormonal balance, despite all evidence.

When you put it like that, well yeah, I was open minded on the idea but now I'm pretty much sold; instead of (as Fred suggests) being a nutcase for believing there could possibly be a link, you'd have to be a nutcase for thinking there definitely is no link.

How effective a healthy lifestyle is for slowing down male pattern baldness is still up for debate, I couldn't make sense of exactly how that twin article made it clear there was a difference in the subjects.

Fred's other response will typically be "I know you want to believe in a cure, so fine! Take your vitamins and gymcel!" because he can't wrap his head around the idea that people can post about things without a personal agenda. This is foreign to him.

 

[kveezy33]

Don't forget to re-assure him it's not his fault, otherwise you're hurting the kids feelings..

I would go even further and suggest Androgenetic Alopecia is a disease of society. People think they're living a healthy lifestyle because they're following the status quo's recommendations. It's important to recognize that humans still have much to learn about the human body. Reputable scientists like Valter Longo and Mark Mattson are only just now recognizing that humans probably need periods of extended fasting (4-5 days minimum) to increase quality of life and reduce cancer risk.

https://news.usc.edu/82959/diet-that-mimics-fasting-appears-to-slow-aging/

 

[Rudiger]

Interesting, I know David has been interested in Intermittent Fasting, and it's something I've tried but I'm not committed to, and only for short periods like a day and a half.

 

[Dench57]

It's probably quite negligible the impact that lifestyle/environmental factors will have on Androgenetic Alopecia progression. As stated before we know the main player is AR/androgens, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest other factors can help androgens do their hair-killing job once the process is in motion. A lot of it is probably to do with oxidative stress, senescence and inflammation. I doubt there's many changes we can make to have a reasonable impact. Interesting nonetheless though.

Many studies like this highlight the deleterious effects of smoking for example.

The mechanisms by which smoking causes hair loss are multifactorial and are probably related to effects of cigarette smoke on the microvasculature of the dermal hair papilla, smoke genotoxicants causing damage to DNA of the hair follicle, smoke-induced imbalance in the follicular protease/antiprotease systems controlling tissue remodeling during the hair growth cycle, pro-oxidant effects of smoking leading to the release of pro-inflammatory cytokines resulting in follicular micro-inflammation and fibrosis and finally increased hydroxylation of oestradiol as well as inhibition of the enzyme aromatase creating a relative hypo-oestrogenic state.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

That's an interesting identical twin article. What it said, (correct me if I'm wrong), is this:

1. Four alchoholic beverages a day help you keep your hair.

2. Smoking cigerettes is bad for your hair.

Is alchohol a DHT inhibitor? Many homeless men, who have drug/drinking problems, still have all their hair.

Also, many rock stars lost their hair later in life (as in fifties/sixties), after going on "the wagon" (alchohol/drug free).

What are your thoughts on this?

I have no thoughts to give you on rock stars. My music IQ might be around 85 or something -- sorry.

 

[buckthorn]

It's probably quite negligible the impact that lifestyle/environmental factors will have on Androgenetic Alopecia progression.

I agree.. however, I think this statement should add, "excluding bouts of Telogen Effluvium". Because this can be considered an "environmental" factor and it sure as hell sped up my male pattern baldness.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Two points:

1) One thing to point out about the twin study -- which finds modest effects of lifestyle on male pattern baldness -- is that twins not only have identical genetics, they actually have almost identical environments in most cases.

If you believe as Fred does that environment is based 100% on your looks, then twins will have identical environments. I believe something in that general direction, maybe not quite as stringent. Further, twins also have similar tastes and preferences so they will make similar prreferences. In general, for most environmental factors you might not be able to measure anything because the twins will have lived such similar lives. For example if one twin was fed a lot of vegetables in childhood, so was the other twin.

So any environmental influence identified by a twin study is a lower bound on environmental influences.

The other reason it's a lower bound is that they only had 90 pairs of twins. That's not a big enough sample size to ask a lot of questions.

2) Somebody brought up intermittent fasting. I did intermittent fasting for hormonal reasons relating to obesity, body composition, and insulin resistance. It may also be good to prevent Alzheimer's and cancer. However, there is reason to believe it may be good for hair loss. I posted the argument here:

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...tent-fasting-as-a-hair-loss-treatment.100661/