Theories on How male pattern baldness Developed Over The Years?

[Vigaku]

Through the process of evolution and whatnot.

I think as each generation finished, the androgen sensivity kept increasing because of exposure to something, or lifestyle/diet, etc.

For example, a giraffe wouldn't grow a longer neck by trying to reach something it couldn't during its lifetime, at least, for it to be noticeable (it may increase it by a few millimeters). The offspring has a similar-sized neck. After 100 generations, the units (millimeters) kept adding up. I think people are the same in a similar way (skin color, cranium size, etc.)

I think male pattern baldness developed because of diet, IMO. I mean, that's what goes into out bodies most of the time. Eating habits could have increased androgen production or natural sebum production. Sexual lifestyles I think also played a role (overdoing it means more testosterone production and hence DHT production). The "genes" probably got so used to it that it naturally produced the same effect without the unfortunate individual (who's born centuries later) having to have a wierd diet, or engage in too much sex. Again, just my personal theories. Other theories are very welcome.

 

[powersam]

Through the process of evolution and whatnot.

I think as each generation finished, the androgen sensivity kept increasing because of exposure to something, or lifestyle/diet, etc.

For example, a giraffe wouldn't grow a longer neck by trying to reach something it couldn't during its lifetime, at least, for it to be noticeable (it may increase it by a few millimeters). The offspring has a similar-sized neck. After 100 generations, the units (millimeters) kept adding up. I think people are the same in a similar way (skin color, cranium size, etc.)

I did not know there was anyone left who believed in Lamarck's theory of evolution, at least not when applied to anything except certain kinds of bacteria.

I think male pattern baldness developed because of diet, IMO. I mean, that's what goes into out bodies most of the time. Eating habits could have increased androgen production or natural sebum production. Sexual lifestyles I think also played a role (overdoing it means more testosterone production and hence DHT production). The "genes" probably got so used to it that it naturally produced the same effect without the unfortunate individual (who's born centuries later) having to have a wierd diet, or engage in too much sex. Again, just my personal theories. Other theories are very welcome.

DHT levels are pretty much dependent on how much of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme is around, not testosterone levels.

The rest of the post is just too garbled and rambling for me to comment on.

 

[Nuli]

Monkeys are bald..... :whistle:

 

[Vigaku]

....I thought giraffes' necks being the long due to reaching was factual evidence...I could be wrong though.

I still believe diet had something to do with it. After all without food, say goodbye to DHT and 5-alpha reductase.

 

[Bryan]

I think male pattern baldness developed because of diet, IMO. I mean, that's what goes into out bodies most of the time. Eating habits could have increased androgen production or natural sebum production.

Nevermind the part about increasing androgens. What you need to explain is why scalp hair follicles ever became SENSITIVE to androgens. Any theories on that?

Sexual lifestyles I think also played a role (overdoing it means more testosterone production and hence DHT production). The "genes" probably got so used to it that it naturally produced the same effect without the unfortunate individual (who's born centuries later) having to have a wierd diet, or engage in too much sex.

Again, the level of androgens is neither here nor there. The basic puzzle, the one you really need to explain, is why scalp hair follicles ever became SENSITIVE to androgens in the first place, as opposed to most of the other hair follicles on the body. Those other hair follicles are actually stimulated by androgens. Why did the ones on the scalp evolve to behave so completely differently from the other ones on the body?

 

[ali777]

I'm not an expert in biology or evolution theory, but my guess is we were always susceptible to androgens to a certain extent.

Without the androgens we don't have sexual development. So, we need the androgens to reach sexual maturity, and at the same time just like all the animals in the jungle, we need visual signs of sexual development. The androgens not only develop our sexual organs but at the same time they give us visual signs of sexuality in the form of pubic hair or body hair. Now the question is, were the androgens meant to attack our scalp?

A doctor I spoke to thinks thinning hair was meant to be a way of distinguishing the sexually mature male and female from distance in the animal jungle, ie, it's an extension to the visual signs of male sexual maturity. Basically, he thinks our scalp was always susceptible to DHT. As already someone mentioned, we aren't the only species to go bald. So, the theory that DHT susceptibility is not new is probably true.

Then there is the whole issue of sexual attraction. We are probably right to think that the bald male is less attractive, but according to this theory the balding guy is the alpha-male. We have a limited window of opportunity to work with. NW1 looks too juvenile, and NW7 too old (UM and HP will hate this). So, anything in between is perfect......... Obviously it's not a proven theory, it's just a thought process.

As for the theory about the diet. Various studies suggest that lifestyle affects hairloss. I personally believe lifestyle can accelerate aging.

PS: Next time you ask your gfs to get a Brazilian, think about it. We are meant to have those signs of sexual maturity. Besides, another school of thought theorises that pubic hair is involved in producing pheromones, ie, pubic hair is supposed to be a turn on....

 

[Bryan]

A doctor I spoke to thinks thinning hair was meant to be a way of distinguishing the sexually mature male and female from distance in the animal jungle, ie, it's an extension to the visual signs of male sexual maturity.

Seems like a fairly far-fetched theory to me.

My own pet theory to explain the development of balding in humans and certain other primates is that it came about as a way to provide extra cooling for those ever-evolving brains that were generating more and more heat as they grew more and more complex. That theory makes at least as much sense to me as any other one I've heard about balding.

 

[ali777]

A doctor I spoke to thinks thinning hair was meant to be a way of distinguishing the sexually mature male and female from distance in the animal jungle, ie, it's an extension to the visual signs of male sexual maturity.

Seems like a fairly far-fetched theory to me.

My own pet theory to explain the development of balding in humans and certain other primates is that it came about as a way to provide extra cooling for those ever-evolving brains that were generating more and more heat as they grew more and more complex. That theory makes at least as much sense to me as any other one I've heard about balding.

hmmm... isn't hair supposed to be an insulating material protecting the brain from heat and cold? I'm not so sure about the cooling effect.

 

[Bryan]

hmmm... isn't hair supposed to be an insulating material protecting the brain from heat and cold? I'm not so sure about the cooling effect.

If the interior of the brain is running hotter than the environment (which seems like a very distinct possibility to me), then the lack of hair (less insulation) ought to provide more cooling.

 

[ali777]

hmmm... isn't hair supposed to be an insulating material protecting the brain from heat and cold? I'm not so sure about the cooling effect.

If the interior of the brain is running hotter than the environment (which seems like a very distinct possibility to me), then the lack of hair (less insulation) ought to provide more cooling.

My understanding is that we all came from the savanna in Africa. We moved out of the jungle into the savanna and we needed new ways of regulating our body heat, cooling became an issue. So, the humans with less hair and more sweat had the advantage. Basically, we cool through sweating.

Although, losing the scalp hair to enhance cooling would seem like an evolutionary advantage, we were standing upright and the UV lights were hitting the scalp with maximum effect. So, the scalp hair was needed to protect our brains from overheating???

In effect, I believe the exact opposite to Bryan. I think the scalp hair was needed as insulation.

If scalp hair was so important in the evolutionary process, either NW1 or NW7 would have dominated the gene pool and the opposite side would have been filtered out. At the age of 40 we are 50-50, so the presence or absence of scalp hair doesn't seem to have a huge effect in the human evolution.

In our times, hair is purely cosmetic.

 

[Bryan]

My understanding is that we all came from the savanna in Africa. We moved out of the jungle into the savanna and we needed new ways of regulating our body heat, cooling became an issue. So, the humans with less hair and more sweat had the advantage. Basically, we cool through sweating.

BTW, you might want to take a look at the published study titled "Beards, Baldness, and Sweat Secretion", which advances similar theories to what I've been saying. If I recall correctly, they actually did measure the cooling effect from sweating in both bald and hairy scalp, and bald scalp was more effective in that regard.

In effect, I believe the exact opposite to Bryan. I think the scalp hair was needed as insulation.

Nope!

If scalp hair was so important in the evolutionary process, either NW1 or NW7 would have dominated the gene pool and the opposite side would have been filtered out. At the age of 40 we are 50-50, so the presence or absence of scalp hair doesn't seem to have a huge effect in the human evolution.

I think the point is that we're still relatively early in the evolution of balding, which explains why it hasn't yet taken over completely. But check back in another couple hundred-thousand years or so, and I bet EVERYBODY will be bald!

 

[ali777]

I think the point is that we're still relatively early in the evolution of balding, which explains why it hasn't yet taken over completely. But check back in another couple hundred-thousand years or so, and I bet EVERYBODY will be bald!

It's a wishful thinking, but do you never read "the impact of hairloss" section :whistle: ?

Are you completely oblivious to the fact that bald men are not attractive and that no female would ever want our genetic material anywhere near her eggs :smack: ?

How is the balding gene supposed to win if it can't get transferred to the new generations :dunno: ? It is being wiped out by ignorant teenager girls who hate bald men uke: .

Your theory relies on people like CCS, IBM, HP, UM (already a father), etc spreading the seeds. But, those guys are convinced that the rest of the society views them as genetically weaker people.

Either your theory is waaaay off target, or those guys need to realise that there's nothing wrong with being bald....

 

[Vigaku]

Agreed with the above.

In fact the fact that I am having a condition like this 100% eliminates my desire of marrying, and 250% eliminates my desire of having offspring, and partially eliminates my desire of having even protected sex just because of the fact there is no 100% guaranteed protection. Truth. It's sad to know that I'm not going to pass my genes on or marry for that matter. If I have no desire, then I can't...period. You cannot even force religion on to me now. Not even one religion states you have to marry and produce when you don't even have the desire in you to do so. For the record I'm happy to know I'm not living more than 60 years from now.

But, life is life so, get a custom replacement if meds aren't good enough for you.

I think the point is that we're still relatively early in the evolution of balding, which explains why it hasn't yet taken over completely. But check back in another couple hundred-thousand years or so, and I bet EVERYBODY will be bald!

It's a wishful thinking, but do you never read "the impact of hairloss" section :whistle: ?

Are you completely oblivious to the fact that bald men are not attractive and that no female would ever want our genetic material anywhere near her eggs :smack: ?

How is the balding gene supposed to win if it can't get transferred to the new generations :dunno: ? It is being wiped out by ignorant teenager girls who hate bald men uke: .

Your theory relies on people like CCS, IBM, HP, UM (already a father), etc spreading the seeds. But, those guys are convinced that the rest of the society views them as genetically weaker people.

Either your theory is waaaay off target, or those guys need to realise that there's nothing wrong with being bald....

Like almost everyone here agreed upon, and like how just about anyone can agree upon this, hair isn't the definition of attractiveness. It's your overall profile that matters, dude. I've seen bald men that I would LOVE TO BE! I'd rather retain the same level of attractiveness as a bald guy since I wouldn't have to worry about hair anymore. Women wouldn't want you to NOT touch them just because you are bald, cosmetically speaking, because they can still find you attractive. Now for those women who believe baldness is a DISEASE, then yes, they'll not want to have sex with you. Same thing if you had diabetes or AIDS.

As for the teenage girl bit well duh, they will not want a bald dude because today's teen girls view that as a sign of being old, and this isn't the medieval times where girls had zero rights and weren't tricked into marriages, etc. They are ambitious now and have a lot more freedom, which explains why they are much more hard to get now. Not that I care though. B1tches can go to hell.

And it's kind of sad that our society views roughly 60-70% of men as humans with inferior genes because they have some level of male pattern baldness. It is very sad because, you would think they would have come up with an ultimate cure by now, and they haven't, but who knows what the future will tell.

I don't know why the hair replacement forum is abandoned though. I mean don't you guys see that as an effective solution? The results look damn perfect and real...Hair Direct and Hair Club are examples or these, and yet it excites no one other than me and CCS. What, are the ads fake or something? The videos too?

 

[follicle84]

I've always seen hairloss as sign of maturity and intelligence (type 1 of 5ar is found in the brain for instance) but also believe Brian about the heating theory of scalps. The chinese believe this too and that we should eat cool foods (fish, veg salads etc to prevent this from happening and that fatty foods increase heat in the body and scalp. I can believe this because fatty foods increase sebum production in the scalp as a result of heat and lack of moisture.

I read another theory recently about scalp expansion that can cause hairloss. Scalp expansion is the result of dht changing the structure of our bones to a more masculine defintion so i've read. I will post something up about this from google scholar if anyones interested. There's actual studies on it. Google scholar is a great place for finding valid studies and articles. I used it during my uni years.

 

[powersam]

If scalp hair was so important in the evolutionary process, either NW1 or NW7 would have dominated the gene pool and the opposite side would have been filtered out. At the age of 40 we are 50-50, so the presence or absence of scalp hair doesn't seem to have a huge effect in the human evolution.

In our times, hair is purely cosmetic.

as baldness tends to occur well after sexual maturity is reached, most men would have fathered children before their baldness set in. especially in earlier societies when kids were married off at 14 or thereabouts. no chance for it to be bred out.

Either your theory is waaaay off target, or those guys need to realise that there's nothing wrong with being bald....

or just that up until very recently most men would have fathered children way before baldness had a chance to take its evil toll.

 

[Bryan]

I'd like to remind everyone here that ALL stumptailed macaques develop balding after puberty, including the females! That suggests to me that the trait has evolved more in that species than it has in Homo sapiens. Are we headed for the same fate as the monkeys? Probably, unless we are no longer experiencing the same evolutionary pressure in that direction. If the "brain cooling" theory is correct, then we may not be. Modern Man has spread all over the planet and now lives in much cooler climates than our distant ancestors, not to mention the availability of modern housing with climate control. We may or may not still be being pushed evolutionarily in the direction of further brain cooling.

What really interests me is whether balding developed independently in stumptailed macaques and human beings, or whether it developed only ONCE in a common ancestor of them both. It would be fascinating to know that, because if it turns out to have developed separately in both, I feel that would strengthen the brain cooling theory.

 

[Bryan]

as baldness tends to occur well after sexual maturity is reached, most men would have fathered children before their baldness set in. especially in earlier societies when kids were married off at 14 or thereabouts. no chance for it to be bred out.

That's clearly not the case in the monkeys, who start to bald during puberty (both males and females).

 

[Vigaku]

If scalp hair was so important in the evolutionary process, either NW1 or NW7 would have dominated the gene pool and the opposite side would have been filtered out. At the age of 40 we are 50-50, so the presence or absence of scalp hair doesn't seem to have a huge effect in the human evolution.

In our times, hair is purely cosmetic.

as baldness tends to occur well after sexual maturity is reached, most men would have fathered children before their baldness set in. especially in earlier societies when kids were married off at 14 or thereabouts. no chance for it to be bred out.

Either your theory is waaaay off target, or those guys need to realise that there's nothing wrong with being bald....

or just that up until very recently most men would have fathered children way before baldness had a chance to take its evil toll.

Ok...where did you get the notion that baldness happened because men fathered children after baldness settled in to them? Because by that logic it would seem a family with purely bald men can reverse its (the family's) condition, in time, by making every male in the family reproduce when they still had a full head of hair. That just seems silly. If that was the case...that would be the motive by now, and I don't think it is. Not saying this is wrong but, this is the first time I've ever heard such a thing.

 

[Ian Curtis]

Simple. When we lived in caves, our lifespan was very short, 30 or 40 years tops right? So baldness was a means to distinguish old males from young and fertile males, hence being more sexually attractive those who carried a nw1 as opposed to bald men, who were viewed as more mature or "elders".

 

[ali777]

If scalp hair was so important in the evolutionary process, either NW1 or NW7 would have dominated the gene pool and the opposite side would have been filtered out. At the age of 40 we are 50-50, so the presence or absence of scalp hair doesn't seem to have a huge effect in the human evolution.

In our times, hair is purely cosmetic.

as baldness tends to occur well after sexual maturity is reached, most men would have fathered children before their baldness set in. especially in earlier societies when kids were married off at 14 or thereabouts. no chance for it to be bred out.

Either your theory is waaaay off target, or those guys need to realise that there's nothing wrong with being bald....

or just that up until very recently most men would have fathered children way before baldness had a chance to take its evil toll.

Ok...where did you get the notion that baldness happened because men fathered children after baldness settled in to them? Because by that logic it would seem a family with purely bald men can reverse its (the family's) condition, in time, by making every male in the family reproduce when they still had a full head of hair. That just seems silly. If that was the case...that would be the motive by now, and I don't think it is. Not saying this is wrong but, this is the first time I've ever heard such a thing.

You seem to not understand the concept of inheritance. No disrespect intended.

What he is saying is that the bald gene doesn't come into effect until much later after the sexual selection takes place. As most men are likely to go through the sexual selection process in their late teens or 20s, the balding gene is still somewhat dormant.

Thus, the presence or absence of the balding gene stays hidden from the female and the natural selection process doesn't really apply either way.

That's not the same as saying the balding gene doesn't pass to the offspring.

I'm not so sure about the assumption that baldness stays hidden for that long. Although I do believe most of the women were very likely to be married very early on and still are in the developing world, the statistics show that the age of first marriage for men was around 25 even 100 years ago. Most men develop a bit of thinning and recession at that age. We simply call is the mature hairline.

I believe the mature hairline is a trait that is subconsciously desired by most women. Women like their mates to be mature and stable. A guy with a juvenile hairline just looks like a kid, and statistically is extremely rare after 25. This might come as a surprise to most of you, but NW2 is more common than the juvenile hairline for men in their 20s (krazyguy, are you reading this?).