????The biggest hairloss mystery????

[20sometingtoo]

Bryan,
Get off your pseudo-intellectual high horse and change your ancient philosopher avatar to something more accessible, you pretentious bastard.

Kidding of course.

I'd like to jump in the mix here too, but I'm afraid you guys would talk circles around me. Keep it coming though, eventually someone will 'dumb it down' for the rest of us - I hope.

 

[Bryan]

BTW, I had nothing to do with this avatar. Admin saw fit to provide it, without bothering to consult me first! :wink:

Bryan

 

[S Foote.]

Stephen,
The sodium nitrite making nitric oxide article was from the Associated Press reprinted in the local paper here. It is in the "Byran: About Hirsutism" thread here on HairLossTalk.com. You can look for all posts by me by clicking on my profile and proboably get it.

Thanks Michael.

It seems to me that the sodium nitrite pathway is involved in circulatory homeostasis, as you suggest. I can also see the logic of Minoxidil like effects.

I really don't think that hypoxia itself has any significant `direct' effect on changes in hair growth. I think the same circulatory changes that can promote a degree of hypoxia, are also changing the local fluid pressures, and this is the way changes in hair growth are affected.

As i have said before, the excuse of hypoxia as the cause of continued balding in large graft transplantation, just dosen't wash scientificaly.

Regards.

S Foote.

 

[S Foote.]

Stephen, your Sawaya anecdote of which you're so proud reminds me of the following similar scenario:

At a grade-school assembly to meet famous astronauts, a little kid goes up to Neil Armstrong and says: "Gee, Mr. Armstrong, I wanna be a famous astronaut just like you, and walk on the moon! I even have my own design for a rocket ship to take me there!!" And Armstrong glances at the crude drawing done with pencil and paper, smiles pleasantly at the little fellow, pats him on the head, and says: "If you work hard and study hard, you too can become an astronaut. I'm sure you'll be an astronaut some day and fly to the moon in your rocket ship!"

The little kid is floating on air for all the rest of the day. He goes around telling all his little friends, "Neil Armstrong says I'm gonna be an astronaut some day, and fly to the moon in my rocket ship!!"



Bryan

Thanks for telling us about your childhood experience Bryan, is this what made you think you could be a scientist? Well i'am sorry to have to tell you that you have also failed in the biological sciences as well!! :wink:

S Foote.

 

[biff]

I read a lot of research about male pattern baldness and the latest theories on how this is happening phisiologically, but there are some HUGE questions that are not only un-answered but can contradict the latest theories of how male pattern baldness is what it is.

Why do some men lose their hair and others don't?

or more specifically: we all have DHT and it does it's job in every animal body so why wouldn't everyone go bald, even women?

If male pattern baldness is wholly caused by DHT or even T binding to the androgen receptors in hair follicles than how would taking alpha blockers that don't limit ALL DHT have any effect whatsoever in the treatment of male pattern baldness?

Finally, if DHT is needed in the body, why would an accumulation of DHT in the hair follicle trigger an auto immune response to kill that predisposed hair follicle and why doesn't DHT cause this anywhere else in the body where it accumulates?

Either I am fuzzy on my knowledge of human phisiolgy or we know very little about what causes hair loss. Maybe a little of both?

Please, any feedback is good feedback.

Maybe it's just evolution. One day everyone will be bald.

 

[Guest]

Who are you Bryan and where did you learn all this information on male pattern baldness? What you say over a lot of people always seems most logical to what I know about male pattern baldness.

If I may ask, how is your treatment coming along?

Thanks for the answers though if possible I request just a little more detail.

Peace

 

[S Foote.]

Stephen, your Sawaya anecdote of which you're so proud reminds me of the following similar scenario:

At a grade-school assembly to meet famous astronauts, a little kid goes up to Neil Armstrong and says: "Gee, Mr. Armstrong, I wanna be a famous astronaut just like you, and walk on the moon! I even have my own design for a rocket ship to take me there!!" And Armstrong glances at the crude drawing done with pencil and paper, smiles pleasantly at the little fellow, pats him on the head, and says: "If you work hard and study hard, you too can become an astronaut. I'm sure you'll be an astronaut some day and fly to the moon in your rocket ship!"

The little kid is floating on air for all the rest of the day. He goes around telling all his little friends, "Neil Armstrong says I'm gonna be an astronaut some day, and fly to the moon in my rocket ship!!"



Bryan

Seriously Bryan, i want everyone here to be clear about something?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the `others' refered to by Dr Sawaya, are also just like `enthusiastic kids' who don't really know what their talking about?

Thats some kind of arrogance Bryan! Are you trying to claim that `YOU' know better than these professionals?

Please tell us all what qualifies `YOUR' personal opinion, above those who `actually' work in the field of professional science?

S Foote.

 

[viperfish]

Who are you Bryan and where did you learn all this information on male pattern baldness? What you say over a lot of people always seems most logical to what I know about male pattern baldness.

If I may ask, how is your treatment coming along?

Thanks for the answers though if possible I request just a little more detail.

Peace

Bryan is pretty hush hush about his treatments. It is only a secret that few of us know. I personally think bryan is some kind of alien.

 

[michael barry]

Bryan,
"your thoughts are very orgainized, and on THE RIGHT PATH, SIMILAR TO WHAT OTHERS HAVE BEEN PROPOSING"

That, to me, STRONGLY suggests that Dr. Sawaya has talked to at least TWO professional scientists in her profession who believe that there is more to baldness than DHT. Loren Pickart states on his skinbiology.com that its the damage to the skin around the follicle that seems to preceed miniaturization as many men with high levels of DHT dont lose hair at all (Pickart hints that we lose a layer of fat around the follicle and macrophanges decrease signifigantly and capillaries degenerate as hints on why follicles miniaturize.......but doesnt outright commit to anything).

All I read in forums from dutasteride users is that its pretty much a bomb. It clips over ninety percent of DHT. Propecia cuts near 70 percent and the pictures on the Propecia.com website are pretty shitty in terms of regrowth in my opinion and it seems to do NOTHING for the temples. Whether other hormones (andro, cortisol, various estrogens, whatever) are involved or not, I dont think we have figured out baldness personally. If we had..........a dutasteride topical formulation would keep guys from ever going bald and could be sold for about ninety a month, but that isnt happening, despite how obviously popular it would be. I dont know about contact inhibition or edema, but free thinking on the subject cant hurt. We can learn ten THOUSAND ways not to make a light bulb................................

 

[Dave001]

Also, I didnt know this, but tripped up on the information that both emu oil and jojoba oil (both known as "good for hair") are mild diuretics and so is aloe vera and caffeine. The emu has linolenic (40+ %) and oleic acid which inhibit alpha 5 very well and if anything could penetrate the skin to get them around the follicle, emu could.

The fatty acids in emu oil aren't in their "free" form. They won't inhibit 5a-reductase.

Emu oil could be hydrolyzed into its constituent fatty acids by esterases in the epidermis or hair follicle itself, at least in theory. Esterase activity in human skin is considerable, and is the development basis for topical prodrug agents, of which quite a few exist. Such activity isn't reflected in the in vitro assays of 5 alpha-reductase, of course. I don't know offhand what interspecies variation there is of skin esterases, nor in what species comparisons have been made between topically applied esters and their fatty acids constituents.

However, considering the skin penetration enhancing properties of certain fatty acids, along with all of the additional unknown variables associated with an ester approach, I would stick with the former. Topical fatty acids are experimental enough without adding complications.

 

[Dave001]

I don't have to tell `myself' that Bryan, Dr Sawaya told me that herself, as i have posted before. :wink:

This quote from her response about my theory:

"It is a very complex process, but your thoughts are very organized and on the right path, similar to what others have been proposing, and in some ways yours are more straightforward. I think you've done a good job in thinking this through......
Hope this helps...
regards
Marty Sawaya"

The key words here being "similar to what others are proposing".

If professional scientists are making similar proposals as me, how can they possibly be content with the `old notions' you continue to blindly support?

Your the one who is being naive here Bryan :roll:

Sawaya is now busy revising her boilerplate response letter.

 

[Dave001]

Stephen, your Sawaya anecdote of which you're so proud reminds me of the following similar scenario:

At a grade-school assembly to meet famous astronauts, a little kid goes up to Neil Armstrong and says: "Gee, Mr. Armstrong, I wanna be a famous astronaut just like you, and walk on the moon! I even have my own design for a rocket ship to take me there!!" And Armstrong glances at the crude drawing done with pencil and paper, smiles pleasantly at the little fellow, pats him on the head, and says: "If you work hard and study hard, you too can become an astronaut. I'm sure you'll be an astronaut some day and fly to the moon in your rocket ship!"

The little kid is floating on air for all the rest of the day. He goes around telling all his little friends, "Neil Armstrong says I'm gonna be an astronaut some day, and fly to the moon in my rocket ship!!"

Bryan, you still can be an astronaut. Don't give up on your dream so soon!

 

[Dave001]

Stephen, your Sawaya anecdote of which you're so proud reminds me of the following similar scenario:

At a grade-school assembly to meet famous astronauts, a little kid goes up to Neil Armstrong and says: "Gee, Mr. Armstrong, I wanna be a famous astronaut just like you, and walk on the moon! I even have my own design for a rocket ship to take me there!!" And Armstrong glances at the crude drawing done with pencil and paper, smiles pleasantly at the little fellow, pats him on the head, and says: "If you work hard and study hard, you too can become an astronaut. I'm sure you'll be an astronaut some day and fly to the moon in your rocket ship!"

The little kid is floating on air for all the rest of the day. He goes around telling all his little friends, "Neil Armstrong says I'm gonna be an astronaut some day, and fly to the moon in my rocket ship!!"



Bryan

Seriously Bryan, i want everyone here to be clear about something?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the `others' refered to by Dr Sawaya, are also just like `enthusiastic kids' who don't really know what their talking about?

Thats some kind of arrogance Bryan! Are you trying to claim that `YOU' know better than these professionals?

Please tell us all what qualifies `YOUR' personal opinion, above those who `actually' work in the field of professional science?

Good Lord. The analogy went over your head.

 

[S Foote.]

Stephen, your Sawaya anecdote of which you're so proud reminds me of the following similar scenario:

At a grade-school assembly to meet famous astronauts, a little kid goes up to Neil Armstrong and says: "Gee, Mr. Armstrong, I wanna be a famous astronaut just like you, and walk on the moon! I even have my own design for a rocket ship to take me there!!" And Armstrong glances at the crude drawing done with pencil and paper, smiles pleasantly at the little fellow, pats him on the head, and says: "If you work hard and study hard, you too can become an astronaut. I'm sure you'll be an astronaut some day and fly to the moon in your rocket ship!"

The little kid is floating on air for all the rest of the day. He goes around telling all his little friends, "Neil Armstrong says I'm gonna be an astronaut some day, and fly to the moon in my rocket ship!!"



Bryan

Seriously Bryan, i want everyone here to be clear about something?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the `others' refered to by Dr Sawaya, are also just like `enthusiastic kids' who don't really know what their talking about?

Thats some kind of arrogance Bryan! Are you trying to claim that `YOU' know better than these professionals?

Please tell us all what qualifies `YOUR' personal opinion, above those who `actually' work in the field of professional science?

Good Lord. The analogy went over your head.

No Dave, the `analogy' just wasn't!!

According to Bryan's little story, Neil Armstrong didn't say to the boy that the experts in the field were `ALSO' thinking along the same lines did he!!

This is the clear difference, and again we have an example of just how bad you and Bryan are at the logical interpretation of information 8)

S Foote.

 

[Dave001]

[quote="S Foote.":7a953]

Stephen, your Sawaya anecdote of which you're so proud reminds me of the following similar scenario:

At a grade-school assembly to meet famous astronauts, a little kid goes up to Neil Armstrong and says: "Gee, Mr. Armstrong, I wanna be a famous astronaut just like you, and walk on the moon! I even have my own design for a rocket ship to take me there!!" And Armstrong glances at the crude drawing done with pencil and paper, smiles pleasantly at the little fellow, pats him on the head, and says: "If you work hard and study hard, you too can become an astronaut. I'm sure you'll be an astronaut some day and fly to the moon in your rocket ship!"

The little kid is floating on air for all the rest of the day. He goes around telling all his little friends, "Neil Armstrong says I'm gonna be an astronaut some day, and fly to the moon in my rocket ship!!"



Bryan

Seriously Bryan, i want everyone here to be clear about something?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the `others' refered to by Dr Sawaya, are also just like `enthusiastic kids' who don't really know what their talking about?

Thats some kind of arrogance Bryan! Are you trying to claim that `YOU' know better than these professionals?

Please tell us all what qualifies `YOUR' personal opinion, above those who `actually' work in the field of professional science?

Good Lord. The analogy went over your head.

No Dave, the `analogy' just wasn't!!

According to Bryan's little story, Neil Armstrong didn't say to the boy that the experts in the field were `ALSO' thinking along the same lines did he!!

This is the clear difference, and again we have an example of just how bad you and Bryan are at the logical interpretation of information 8) [/quote:7a953]

The point was that she was probably just being polite, and never gave any serious consideration to your "theory." I'm sure she's very busy.

 

[S Foote.]

[quote="S Foote.":03da8]

Stephen, your Sawaya anecdote of which you're so proud reminds me of the following similar scenario:

At a grade-school assembly to meet famous astronauts, a little kid goes up to Neil Armstrong and says: "Gee, Mr. Armstrong, I wanna be a famous astronaut just like you, and walk on the moon! I even have my own design for a rocket ship to take me there!!" And Armstrong glances at the crude drawing done with pencil and paper, smiles pleasantly at the little fellow, pats him on the head, and says: "If you work hard and study hard, you too can become an astronaut. I'm sure you'll be an astronaut some day and fly to the moon in your rocket ship!"

The little kid is floating on air for all the rest of the day. He goes around telling all his little friends, "Neil Armstrong says I'm gonna be an astronaut some day, and fly to the moon in my rocket ship!!"



Bryan

Seriously Bryan, i want everyone here to be clear about something?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the `others' refered to by Dr Sawaya, are also just like `enthusiastic kids' who don't really know what their talking about?

Thats some kind of arrogance Bryan! Are you trying to claim that `YOU' know better than these professionals?

Please tell us all what qualifies `YOUR' personal opinion, above those who `actually' work in the field of professional science?

Good Lord. The analogy went over your head.

No Dave, the `analogy' just wasn't!!

According to Bryan's little story, Neil Armstrong didn't say to the boy that the experts in the field were `ALSO' thinking along the same lines did he!!

This is the clear difference, and again we have an example of just how bad you and Bryan are at the logical interpretation of information 8)

The point was that she was probably just being polite, and never gave any serious consideration to your "theory." I'm sure she's very busy.[/quote:03da8]

You really are are sad individual!

I quoted Dr Sawaya word for word for God's sake! Are you even so pityfull that you just blindly refuse to accept what a well recognised expert in the field has to say?

She quite clearly said for all to see, that professional people are now thinking along the same lines as my proposal.

Now i know this really bugs the psuedo scientific attention seeking of you and Bryan, that just hinders the honest people here who are looking for realistic information. But you are just going to have to get over this!!

You have been exposed here, end of story :wink:

S Foote.

 

[michael barry]

Dave,
Emu Oil seems to have some pretty excited coherents if one beleives the users in the forums. Many seem to feel that it helps their arthritis when applied to the hands (the omega 3 anti-inflammatory effect). I feel the stuff may help stave off fibrosis which we all might consider. If something ever comes down the pike that can make vellus hairs go terminal, many of us with just recession but no scarring could really benefit from it. Those of us who are liver spot-keloid scarred bald of course wouldnt.

Im gonna look for a link on Hagerty's site about VEGF upgraded in mice that grew back their coats and post if I can find it. Be interested to see what you thought of it......; )

 

[Bryan]

Who are you Bryan and where did you learn all this information on male pattern baldness? What you say over a lot of people always seems most logical to what I know about male pattern baldness.

I am nobody in particular. But I'm fortunate in that I live about four or five miles from the medical library which services the entire Texas Medical Center here in Houston, so I have an easily accessible source of medical journals, textbooks, and reference books. In fact, right here in my den, I have copies of hundreds of various medical journal studies which relate directly or indirectly to hairloss, along with several medical textbooks and reference books.

If I may ask, how is your treatment coming along?

The older I get, the less conscientious I become at bothering with my own treatment. But I'm doing ok, I guess...

-----------------------------------------------------
Houston weather forecast:
Chance of rain for Friday and Saturday! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,
"your thoughts are very orgainized, and on THE RIGHT PATH, SIMILAR TO WHAT OTHERS HAVE BEEN PROPOSING"

That, to me, STRONGLY suggests that Dr. Sawaya has talked to at least TWO professional scientists in her profession who believe that there is more to baldness than DHT.

Good god...OF COURSE there's more to baldness than just DHT. But we aren't talking about non-DHT theories in general, we're talking about ONE SPECIFIC NON-DHT THEORY (Stephen's screwball idea involving contact inhibition). That's an idea that's been soundly refuted.

I dont know about contact inhibition or edema, but free thinking on the subject cant hurt. We can learn ten THOUSAND ways not to make a light bulb.

Free thinking is great, but when a theory has been disproved, it's time to drop it and move on.

Bryan

-----------------------------------------------------
Houston weather forecast:
Chance of rain for Friday and Saturday! :wink:

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

This is from Duke University and Massachusetts General hospital regarding capillary sizes and hair.



http://www.hairloss-reversible.com/hair ... news16.htm

and

http://www.hairloss-reversible.com/hair ... _news2.htm




Both of these studies indicate that microcapillary SIZE can make hair follicles go from vellus to terminal in mice. In other words if we could somehow trick our follicles microcapillaries from shrinking right along with the follicle, the follicle might not shrink. Food for thought. The Doctor at the Mass. Hospital wants funding to research it.